Edit: My original story covered some ground and others have posted their own stories and take. Kids are one of the most important, if not THE most important dynamic associated with affairs. The negative impact on kids no matter how information is fed to them is pretty clear.

So what is your story? Tell us please. By telling how you handled telling the kids, or not could helps someone else; or how about from your own childhood - what happened and how did you take it as a kid?

________________

Tell the kids? Maybe. So what do you tell them and how? Hey, you can't come out and say something like, "Kids, mommie and the next door nieghbor are playing doctor and daddie is mad." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

This was on Davethebrewers thread. I thought it deserved a thread of its own. In my opinion, this is a hot topic.

A couple of someones posted that Harley said tell the kids or that Harley would recommend it. Well maybe. I am no expert on all of Harley's stuff, only what I have read to date. The exact Harley comment is shown below

Harley's words were not carved in granite. The email quoted in Longhorn's reference in Dave's thread was a post by 2334pem that was specifically about long term affairs being treated differently where he/she asked Harley (somehow) and Harley replied.

Here is exactly what Harley said (in part):


This is by no means a diatribe on all of the ramifications of exposing to children. Children are included in a list.

I submit that this needs more addressing than 'Harley says," and that is THAT! I mean no disrespect by saying this. Children are a special case by any definition and we have to stop, look and think before we do something to the kids as harmful as the affair itself might turn out to be.

Here is what Dave had to say.


Here I think Dave has his thinking cap on. Using the kids as a weapon is a cheap, very cheap tactic best reserved for the temporarily insane like affairees. And they do it, all the time. When you are attempting to sit on the high ground, you gotta look around and make sure there are no pointy things sticking out that might getcha.

Before exposure to kids, I can think of a ton of stuff to consider; Is mom/dad still in the house, what level of insanity do they exhibit, how old are the kids, how mature are the kids, what is the affairee telling the kids, what is the level of tension????

Even more important, exactly what do you say? Well that depends as well. Oh yea, we always have the catchall "Age appropriate" thing. I personally wouldn't be able to always style age appropriate if you put a gun to my head.

So there you have another consideration, how good are you at explaining to kids?

In my opinion, this is a hot topic, worthy of just about anyone weighing in with thoughtful opinions. One size fits all isn't the way to go here, in my opinion. Maybe exposure is the right thing to do with kids, maybe not.

Ok, pundits, have at it.

Larry

I know that kids should never be used as a weapon. But they deserve the truth. One poster said that her mom yelled at her dad about his infidelity in front of her, and it was very harmful.

I'm old now, but when I was 6 my dad left home every night after I was in bed, and returned around 1:00AM. I used to stay up, looking out the window crying until he came home. My parents never knew. It turned out that he WAS having an affair. I found out when I was grown. I knew something awful and dangerous was happening to our family, and was very depressed about it. This went on for a year.

So my belief is that children should be told the truth. Kids are smart, and KNOW. But the adults are trying to shield them from the truth.

Also the WS is usually not very careful, and not thinking about protecting the kids. They almost always think it is wonderful for the kids to be "friends" with the affair partner. That puts the kids in the horrible position of having to LIE to the other parent.

Secrets are bad for families and kids.

Larry:

Interesting topic.

OW called my house and spoke to my (then) 12 Y.O. son on Dday. OW thought she was talking to W. Do not know to this day exactly what she said.

W told son, in front of me, that "Dad has a girl friend, and we are dealing with it"

Yea, I was proud of myself at that moment.

If, my A had continued past that date, my son would have gotten alot more info about his daddy's actions.

But it ended, and he has a different role model now.

I will answer your question however. Tell the kids? Yes.

Especially if the person in the A is spending hours and days away from the house. Because the kids will come up with thier own answers, that are not true and can never be validated, but can be carried for many years.

They deserve the "age-appropriate" truth.

JMHO. From one side of the fence. Since we are leaning on it at the moment...

What "ramifications," Larry? I know of none. Can you CITE THEM? On the other hand, I can cite the ramifications of lying to children. If you listen to Dr. Harley on the radio you would have heard him TELL ME PERSONALLY that he "always recommends exposure to the betrayed spouse and THE CHILDREN." [yes, I called him about this email]

He speaks often about how this exposure to HIM as a child changed his life and SHAPED his own outlook about adultery. He says that since he was guided through his fathers adultery he was able to SEE FIRST HAND the devastation wrought by his fathers adultery. This lesson has prevented him from committing adultery himself and taught him that marriages can be restored.

As a child who grew up with a father who was a serial cheater, I can personally attest to how damaging it is to LIE to children about adultery. As a young girl, I KNEW what was going on, but since no adult would VALIDATE my feelings of right and wrong, I grew to doubt my own instincts and grew up believing that I must be a very stupid girl since no one else saw what seemed so apparent to me. As a result, I grew up MORALLY CONFUSED becuase nothing made any sense.

Adultery has a profound effect on children and parents have an OBLIGATION to guide children through this trauma. It is PARENTAL OBLIGATION to give children MORAL GUIDANCE, not manufacture lies about parental misbehavior to protect bad behavior. Children are not made secure by believing lies about parents.

Anyway, I know of NO harmful "ramifications" from telling the truth, but I DO KNOW of ramifications from telling children LIES. Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist and this is HIS forum, after all, so I believe I will stand by his advice. He has not led me wrong yet.

Great post, LG, and I agree 100%. Kids can and DO come up with their own answers if left to their own devices. I know that I sure did when I was a little girl. My answer was that I must be very stupid since the adults in my life were SILENT about the wrongdoing I saw. Apparently, what seemed so wrong to me, was not wrong to THEM. Very morally confusing to a child.

I will post my response that I made to Larry on the other thread:

Larry, I don't think telling the kids the truth about the facts concerning their lives is "using the kids as a weapon," but rather informing and guiding them through some very volatile, turbulent times in their lives. Children need moral guidance more than ever in these situations. They can't be guided if they are lied to.

When I speak of "age appropriate" [and I have heard Dr. Harley use this very term] I am thinking of speaking to them at their age level, which I think most adults can figure out. They know their child's maturity level better than anyone and would know what to say to their own child to help them understand adultery.

What we say to a 12 yr old will obviously be different than what we say to a 7 yr old who barely understands the concept of marriage. So I think the term "age appropriate" is pretty self explanatory. I don't think most folks have a problem understanding that concept, I know I sure don't.

Yes, tell them... it helps them understand and they do not deserve to be kept in the dark.

If you don't give your children the truth, they will make up their own version, and usually, when left on their own like that, they decide that it must have something to do with them.

My son is currently dealing with all of this, and I AM telling him the truth, in such a way that he understands. This IS very tough material to talk to a child about, but the alternative is to have them twisting in the wind.

Git offaya High Horse Melody (That's Texan for wadaminut) Please don't be offended.

You did NOT post that you had a conversation with Harley over on Dave's thread. You did NOT include his conversation with you as expanded or at least I didn't see it before I dashed over here to start this thread.

Thank you for that information. THAT makes a difference, yet:


I didn't listen to him. I didn't know you were going to call <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would have had a dozen follow up questions along the lines of, well anyway, I did list the ramifications:


Now Melody, I am NOT avocating to tell the kids or NOT tell the kids for the purposes of this thread. Harley does and you do. My personal opinion is that you should tell the kids something appropriate for their age, emotional maturity and depending on the situation as it exists, which is a serious variable.

Here is my problem, and I stated it and will do so again.

1. What do you tell the kids?
2. How do you style it?
3. And a new one, how do you keep the conversation from being used against you in court?

Melody, the only time in my own childhood I remember being confronted by adultery was when my hated for good reason stepfather apparently had an ONS with a hooker. My mother bleed all over me for comfort. I was overwhelmed. I had no idea what to say or how to say it.

I am serious about this. In no way shape or form am I disputing you Melody. Do not take this personal, please. What and how you tell the kids is serious and begs discussion. What level of involvement is also important.

Now in Dave's situation, for example, what would you have Dave tell his kids with exact words. Mom is baby sitting the kids from after school until Dave gets off work. Then she leaves. She has free time to say whatever she wants.

So what does Dave tell his kids? Am I making this more complicated than it needs be? Is there a magic bullet. I can say honestly, I haven't a clue what Dave should tell his kids. I haven't a clue what I should have told my kids if they had been in town at the time. I simply do NOT know what to say or not to say.

Finally, CPS is a sometimes strange bunch. They have unusual powers, to say the least. I know of one case where CPS jumped all over a Dad for discussing his wife's affair with the kids. I don't know all the details. It may have been how he said it for all I know. Which leads me back to my real question;

What do you say and how do you say it. I am really clueless.


Larry

These posts are happening so fast, I can't keep up.

*sigh*

Leave us get to specifics so I can understand. And understanding is what I seek. Trust me, not everyone is adept at knowing exactly what to say that is "Age appropriate."

Given that Dave's wife is a bit crazy and she keeps the kids after school, what does Dave tell them? Now kids being kids, those kids are probably gonna tell mom what Dave said.

I love LG's comment that could be turned to: "Mom has a new boyfriend and we are dealing it." That I can understand.

Larry

So if you can share, what are you telling him? How is he taking it?

Larry

Larry - Age appropriate means that you tell older kids that WS is having an affair. You tell younger kids that WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend, and that is not right for MARRIED people.

I rasied my boys alone, and have discussed the care of an uncircumcised penis, wet dreams, masterbation, menstruation, PMS, sex, birth control, giving birth, cross-dressing, homosexuality, etc. It was not easy, but I wanted them to learn things from me.

Ok, I can understand that. I have a 10 year old girl and a 12 year old boy. The boy is a mama's boy and the girl is pretty independent. How would you handle those differences given that kids talk to each other?

This is the first time I have seen this level of discussion on this particular element. I think it deserves an airing and yes, it is going to be emotional at times. That is the nature of affairs fall out and with kids, double tough.

While I have given the appearance of neutrality on this issue, I am really not neutral. The OM in my wife's affair is a relative. And he got run off. My oldest boy asks where he went from time to time and I really don't know what to say. I find it interesting that he never asks his mom. No, I haven't asked my wife. We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news about six months ago when we finally decided that we had dealt with it enough. Then my kid asks a question. I am not going to break POJA.

Besides, I haven't a clue what to tell him.

Larry

Now, Larry, the only fella I see on his high horse is you, the guy who came out slinging. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />






But I did include it here. Telling the children is pretty standard advice around here and has been for years. Years before I even came here.






But those are not ramifications. Those are individual considerations that each parent will have to determine according to his best judgement.






Of course, and no one has ever said otherwise. The information should be age appropriate.




These are not problems, but questions about tactics. I am not aware of it being used against a parent in court. Adultery CAN be used against a parent in court, but I am not aware of telling a child about adultery being held against him. The parent would have to use his best judgment in what to tell the child.






I am sure that was horrible but I don't how this relates to our focus here; it is a different issue. No one has told him to use his children for comfort, which I agree is creepy and inappropriate.






I think most loving, caring parents can figure out how to tell their child in a way they will understand. I don't think there is one perfect way. I have confidence that most parents can figure out the best way.

I know that several other parents here HAVE explained adultery to their children so maybe they can share exactly what they said so others could be helped in this regard.

Larry - YIKES! Disappearing relatives.........

I would be afraid that someone in the family or a friend would tell your kids, and maybe not in a kind manner. I hope that doesn't happen.

Ain't it amazing how Texans can handle a high horse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, Melody:


Ramifications, problems, et al are just symantics. You must be in EAST Texas where you have to chop down trees to get at the oil. I clearly remember that my wife was cake eating when my kids came home from grandparents, where they had spent most of the summer.

I was a total basket case. It was the effort to figure out what to tell my oldest son that woke me up. He was trying to comfort me. I went outside to have a crying jag - wife was off "Shopping." He happened outside and came over to comfort me. Talk about a wake up call! I didn't figure out what to tell him at the time, my mind couldn't get around it, but I sure as heck figured out what to say to wife. I called her on her cell phone and said "Get home, now. My head is back on straight and I have some options for you. Based on the option you choose, I know what I will do. I'll explain when you get here."

And the rest is history.

Harley says tell the kids as part of exposure, maybe more. Er, the rest is left up to parents who are going through an emotional train wreck? Knowing that my kids were NOW in harm's way was my wake up call. But that didn't help me a bit figuring out what to say to them that wouldn't lead to questions for which they were not old enough to hear the answers. Oh, I could think of a couple of things off the bat, it was the follow up that scared me at the time. So I just dealt with the affair as it stood. Easier that way than explaining to my kid that mom was nuts. Come to think of it, avoiding how to tell son had a great outcome.

Please, those who have told their kids and those who have NOT told their kids, add to this post. I believe with all my heart that this needs a full and complete airing.

Larry

I haven't read Dave's situation closely, but he would tell them the truth in a manner they can understand, which conveys the basic facts. And hopefully they WOULD speak to their mother about their feelings about the affair. I would expect that.

It was a very short affair, thankfully. Only one or two relatives know about it at all. But yea, affairs are the gift that keeps on giving.

I was not on MB at the time, I discovered it later to get help with recovery issues. At the time, I did not do extensive disclosure. My closest friend is a child psychologist. He knew and helped me as a friend, not a shrink. Matter of fact, he helped my wife more than me.

My wife went through a maturity crisis at 30 that was even more so because they were trying to kill her in BSN school, which is to weed out the weak. I KNEW she was vulnerable because I was having to work long hours at the time to keep the money flowing - business issues. I trusted this one relative and no other. He turned out to be a snake.

I have posted a long diatribe on this before and seen no purpose in doing it here. Leave us just say; "Larry is at work a lot and I care about you as a sister. Can we just hold hands when we go shopping for groceries?" "I am very attracted to you, but of course we can't do anything." "Why does Larry have to work such long hours. Why if I were him, I would be here with you all the time."

Gag.

Back to the issue at hand. Folks, what did you tell you kids or if you didn't tell your kids, why not? What say you?

Larry

Larry, it is not semantics, there is a huge difference between a question about a TACTIC and a "ramification" or "problem." Words do have meanings. Asking HOW you tell a child is not a ramification or a problem but a question.






What was there to "figure out?" You just say the truth. That is not that hard, Larry. People do it every day. I don't think its nearly as difficult as you fear. It is never easy to convey such a hard message but many parents manage it just fine. There is no magic script to guide us just as there is no magic parents manual giving step by step instructions, as much as I wish there was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Most of us raise our kids just fine without it, using our own God given judgment.






It sounds like you are very torn inside about this, so maybe a discussion will help you come to terms with your own actions. I suspect that is the real issue.

Melody:


I am not torn now. I was then. I didn't know what to do. I was clueless. I suspect I am not the only one. Dave is being given advice to tell his kids. He is cringing at the thought as well he should because he is on the hot seat.

Given that his wife is acting like she has a serious screw loose, I am not going to specifically tell him to tell his kids because I am not in a position to know what he knows.

Melody, you have delved into this in times past in depth. Get up to speed on Dave and make suggestions. He is in the mine field and needs help finding the mines.

Larry