He is being given good advice that comes from the very best, Dr. Harley. As well he should cringe. If he weren't a good parent, he wouldnt' cringe at all; he wouldn't care. Every parent on here who has done this cringed. It is a hard thing to tell a child. But it is usually for the best.


I will take a browse at his thread, but I am not a psychologist, which is why I stick to advice from Dr. Harley. Of course, I don't think one has to be a psychologist to see the logic behind telling kids the truth.

Me too. But I don't know his wife. Dave does. It might backfire.

Let me add something here. I have changed how I post on this forum for a reason. Back a few months, I was posting to a guy on here and so was Mr. Wondering. We offered our help and opinions as did a number of other folks.

Lo and behold, wife shows up in court with selected posts by Wondering and me and uses them agains the guy. I was mortified, to say the least. Add that to the guy I know who CPS raked over the coals for whatever he told his kids about his wife's affair, and CAUTION be CAREFUL rings in my ear like Big Ben on steroids.

Larry

Who knows? Anything might backfire, but that also depends on how one defines backfire. Waking up tomorrow might "backfire," that doesn't mean we just stop living and taking steps to improve our situations. We can't live a life paralyzed in fear of imagined perils.

Larry,

Even Dr Harley himself said he knew about his fathers affair when he was a young child. Children know this is wrong and need to be validated not lied to.

In my specific case, our boys were 16, 14 and 12. We sat them down and told them the truth - my wife was in an immoral relationship with our next door neighbour. She told them they could go and live with her and OM - kids said no thanks. She left. Her last memory was of our 14yo racked with sobbing in the driveway as she drove off.

She ended her affair within a few days. One of the reasons was the pain she was causing our children.

In your case Larry, I would submit your children are old enough for the truth and the truth is what they deserve.

There is nothing quite so powerful as a woman seeing how sleazy they look in the eyes of their children. An affair WILL destroy their family and security and affect the rest of their lives adversly. They deserve the truth.

Larry:

Your looking for advice:

I'll give it a shot.

You had your opening:

"My oldest boy asks where he went from time to time and I really don't know what to say. I find it interesting that he never asks his mom. No, I haven't asked my wife. We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news about six months ago when we finally decided that we had dealt with it enough. Then my kid asks a question. I am not going to break POJA."

Where did "relative" get run off to? You boy wants to know, tell him the truth.

This "relative" was:

A: Trying to destroy our family by trying to/sleeping with your mother.
B: He decided that living around here wasn't a good idea, since his actions with your mother were very inappropriate.
C: I don't know. Ask your mother.

One of these answers will be appropriate for your son. I like B. I think it works. Let your son follow up as needed.

Larry, you "find it interesting that he never asks his mom."

Are you sure of this? Because Mrs Larry may not say. But I will give her the benefit of the doubt, and presume that your son has not mentioned/questioned your W. (I say this because my DS speaks more freely with his mother).

However, I believe waht is really at play is that your Son KNOWS your W was involved with the relative. And is afraid to ask his mother. So, it is in your hands.

Which leads me to:

"We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news"

It ain't "old news" to your son. It's a secret that he has bits and pieces to, that he is trying to fit together. But the missing pieces are large. So, I think it is time to POJA with Mrs Larry and let her know that it's time to talk to the boy. She can talk to the girl. Or preferably, you two talk to them together. (individually meet with the children, but both of you together)

What to actually say? Have that discussion with MrsL and discuss the outlines, and what is appropriate for your son/daughter's age. Daughter may not have a clue. Do not avoid talking to her because she doesn't have a clue, just keep the conversation clear.

Start with the family situation, you working, MrsL in school, and you too were under alot of stress. "relative" got to close to mommy, and due to this, Mommy made some bad decisions. Mommy has fixed these bad decisions. And we are stronger, better family now.

That is thread that goes thru the conversation, but you can expand it as needed.

Lesson to children: Forgiveness, the ability to change for the better, honesty.

And, do not suppose that other relatives haven't talked/gossiped/exchanged info on your W's A with OM. And that thier children do not know. Because one day, someone is going to say something and your children are out of the loop, and that you do not ever want. You are protecting the wrong people then.

And Larry, I really enjoyed your posts with HS. You had great eloquence. Please put that to use when talking to your son. Because even more difficult conversations are coming.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning LG,. absolutely great advice. My wife will be devastated (me too), but I guess it is time to have another talk. I will tell you that the thought of what to tell the kids was a very large part of pulling her pulling her head out.

Ok, leave us now go to Dave. Have you read his thread? He hasn't told his kids. He has his head on straight as well as anyone I have seen in the situation he is in.

Folks, it isn't just me. This is why I started this thread. For me, when "Where is the relative?" comes up again, my wife and I will be prepared. I have a guy who works for me whose wife had an affair. Now that one resulted in divorce and him getting custody. But I clearly remember his agony over what to tell the kids during the beginning and middle of the mess.

He finally told them that Mom was having an affair with [name] and that would probably mean a divorce. The boys were 10 and 12 and that week he might have made it to work once. I gave him vacation time to deal with it and he needed it. According to him, talking to his kids about it was the worse thing out of the whole sordid mess. Not having any guide lines - heck I was clueless to help and so were most everyone else who knew about it - may have made it even more difficult.

CPS got in the middle of it. Mom called them. This was beyond my ability help him as a friend. As I understand it from later conversation, CPS complained that the house was dirty (filthy), that my friend had told the kids inappropriate things in an inappropriate way and that mom was also destroying the kid's life. At one point, my friend (and employee) had to take the kids to live with his parents to keep CPS from grabbing them. If memory serves, CPS said get the kids out of the house until the two of you get a divorce or whatever or we will take them elsewhere. And keep your mouth shut, you are telling the kids things they do not need to hear.

Waywards lie and twist the truth. Like a drug addict is an apt description. The betrayed are sometimes so emotionally devasted, there is no telling what they might say. It is a hair ball when kids are in the middle, and that is exactly where kids end up, like it or not.

So, if anyone reading this post has a story to share, by all means post it here. What to tell the kids and when and how is of major importance. The kids are civilians in the middle of a war zone. I agree, don't make them guess but on the other hand, emotions run high for everyone in an affair situation. Minds are clouded. My next door neighbor killed himself over an affair. Any story that anyone can add to this thread just might help the next person.

Larry

PS LB - the HS deal really set me back on giving out advice. I went elsewhere for a time. For the past couple of weeks I have started posting again and trying to help. I just finished up a major one on Recovery. It was a sorta easy deal, but not to the family involved. I have often wondered how Mr. Wondering handled the use of what he considered good advice against a good guy in court. He is a lawyer, so I guess nothing surprises him. I have gone back and read that thread again and I honestly can't change a word.

Larry, I missed bunches yesterday, cause I was talking to my kid...

No, seriously, when my son was 3, when all of this began, I told him that daddy did a bad thing and hurt mommy. I told him that *I* asked daddy to leave, and that DS would see him again.

That was my first conversation. There have been many more. Had I not been in utter shock, I would have probably handled it differently. I would have told him that daddy made bad choices that were hurting his family (him AND me) and that he couldn't live with us until he made better decisions.

Now, I have told my DS everything. What have I said, exactly, you ask? I have spoken these words..Daddy has hurt both of us, his family, you and I, with bad choices. Daddy is married to mommy, and when you are married, you put your partner first. Daddy is putting himself first, above both of us right now, and cannot live with us because of that. This is your daddy's choice. I do not want this. I want him here with us.

To which my son asks, what bad choices. I told him that his daddy chooses to live with another woman, and that breaks the rules of marriage, and it is unacceptable behavior.

Geez, we have had many many conversations as of late, so I couldn't tell you, word for word, but the above comes close to how many of them go. The positive result is that my son KNOWS that it is NOT him. That he is not why his daddy isn't home. No matter what I say, I cannot take my DS's pain away, but I can take the blame that he most certainly would apply to himself, and give it to the rightful owner, his daddy.

Larry, I don't think there are any magic words that can make such devastating news go down easier. The impact of the news of an affair is going to be hard, no matter how it is presented. Affairs are devastating to all concerned. There simply is no way to make it EASY or make it right. Some things are just BAD and that reality can't be changed.

I think what is WORSE for a child is living in a war zone and NOT being the told the truth so they can make some sense of the crisis. It is much easier to live through a war if you understand where the bullets are coming from. Ignorance is much worse, IMO, than hearing the truth about the source of the crisis. Children can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

I think most parents are smart enough to figure out the right words on their own, but some general principles I might emphasize would be to give the basic facts without going into gory details. Kids don't need alot of detail, but they do need to know basic facts and have their questions answered honestly.

Another very important aspect is to explain the immorality of adultery and their thoughts on the sanctity of marriage. Explain why it is immoral. Children need moral guidance more than anything, and if this is missing, they will just conclude that adultery must be ok.

Those are some key points I can think of, I am sure others who have done this can make some contributions.

Here is Marriage Builders article about children and adultery that might be helpful to some:

Infidelity:
The Lessons Children Learn
by Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Ph.D.

"But even after the mistake of an affair, it is possible to make a conscious choice to change the disastrous consequences. I have counseled many parents who could see what they were teaching their children by having an affair. It motivated them to end the affair and explain to their children how wrong they had been. Although it was extremely difficult and very humbling, they were not only able to save their marriage, but also able to correct the lessons they had taught their children.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Great thread everyone!!

I have just to jump on and say that I have talked to my DSS who is 12 about this. He is aware of OW because WH has taken them all out together several times.

I have made it clear to him that his Dad's actions are morally wrong. We've talked about why they are wrong.

We also talk about how you can "HATE the sin, but still LOVE the sinner". this resonates with DSS. This is something he can understand.

I was specifically told by the Harley's that I should also tell DD6 the truth. I haven't done so yet. She knows that Daddy has made some wrong choices, that he has hurt me, and that I do LOVE him still.

The one theme I have kept throughout EVERY discussion with both kids is that I love their Daddy, I want him home with us, Daddy loves them both VERY much, AND IT IS OK FOR THEM TO LOVE HIM, TOO!

It is important to me that they know that they are not being 'disloyal' to me by loving their Daddy.

JMHO.

Melody:


Good advice. And so was the article. I have read it.


I guess this is the where you and I got crossways. I wasn't smart enough. Neither was my friend, he said things he should not have said. I dunno if MOST parents are smart enough or just SOME parents are, but I do believe that ALL parents could use some help in this very difficult area.

And the replies to this thread have certainly helped me and I suspect others as well. You might want to suggest to Dave that he read this thread. I'll back you up.

Larry

PS: Let me add another dimension to this. My two oldest's bio father called CPS the week my wife and I got married. That went nowhere, but was a rough time. Yes, I was accused and CPS found it to be a lie. Later on, he continue his abuse by telling the kids their mother was a - all sorts of names - I was - here insert all sorts of names - our dog was from the devil, if they could get rid of me, their mom would come back to him, yada yada. And NO, my relationship with my wife was NOT based on an affair in case that is what someone wants to read into what I say. No karma here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We had to go to court to stop him. He started another custody battle that went all the way to the State Supreme Court before it ended. We won every step of the way. In predictable fashion, when he lost, he stopped child support payments. He was and is an abusive and controlling jerk. This is one more reason why I have started this thread to explore as many possibilities of telling the kids, and what and how, as possible. Oh, and for the record, my wife is a good person and a good mom who has made some bad choices in her past, and the operative word is "Past." Heck, so have I.

If anyone has a story, by all means post it.

Just wanted to add how I did it!

First off...the wrong way. The day I found out about the adultery, I went storming out of the house and headed to OM's house to do him bodily harm! A block down the street, I realized I might not want to do that. So, I came back. Before I had left, I had been "going off" on my wife pretty good up in our bedroom.

So, when I got back, she had the kids in the living room and they were wondering what was wrong with Dad. I came straight in, saw them in the living room and walked up to my wife and asked "You want to tell them or me?"

She started to say something to them about mom and dad having problems and it wasnt about them, blah, blah, blah...and I chimed in "No. It isnt about that kids. It is about your mother committing adultery, which is having sex with another man." That ended the discussion then!

All of my kids were under the age of 11 then. And as I said, I did not handle that well!

Later, once my wife had moved out on us, I went into a long explanation to them of what adultery was, how God viewed it and what marriage was about. I refrained from calling my wife names. But I did show them that adultery was wrong, that God was not with a person in adultery, etc. My kids were able to take those facts and put together that mom was wrong.

I also made sure they understood who exactly the Troll (OM) was. He wasnt (and still isnt) a nice man. He was a man doing terrible things and that they were to tell me if they were ever in contact with him.

A few weeks ago, my wife admitted that if she had stayed with the Troll, she knows that the kids would have NEVER accepted him! My heart lept knowing that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In conclusion, I am for telling them the truth. Not the way I first did it though. The second way. And when my wife would try to explain in her foggy notions how this would all be okay and God would forgive, I made sure that I took them right back to Scripture and made sure they understood the truth.

After awhile, even they were able to understand fogese and what was truth. They are smart kids now. They have now been trained, thanks to this mess, on what a marriage is, how they get in trouble, and what is expected.

That would have never been possible if we had just said "mom and dad are having problems, blah, blah, blah."

By the way...my wife's attorney asked me two questions at the deposition that I loved...

Attorney (in response to my affair fact finding efforts): "Dont you believe that your wife deserves privacy?"

Mortarman: "She deserves privacy. She does not deserve secrecy. Secrecy has no place in a marriage."

The attorney got off the subject. Then the second question...

Attorney: "Do you believe it was right of you to tell the children that their mother was in an adulterous relationship?"

Mortarman: "Yep. I told them the truth. I didnt delve down into the dirty particulars. But I told them the truth. It wasnt me acting immorally or breaking the law. That was her. It isnt me that has to explain myself to the kids. She does."

This is a great discussion, and as I am at least mentioned as a benefactor I will weigh in. My kids are 11 and 7, and honestly they aren't as mature as other kids their age or older in understanding the ways of the birds and the bees (or the snakes). I believe that they are already traumatized by their mother's actions, regardless of her affair...her abandonment of them runs much deeper. The truth is is that I am doing everything I can to bring her back home, and I'd tell them that. She will probably say that she can't, ultimately because she doesn't forgive me for my past action...this could easily translate into her inability to forgive THEM if they do something bad. I can't bear the thought.

I think honesty is important, but there is a fine line between the brutal type and the need to know type. Take the VA Tech shootings...the honest truth was a crazy guy killed a bunch of people, but the brutal truth was when the video was released, when the shooter's psychiatric records were released, etc. Sometimes the nitty gritty details just aren't necessary. Secondly, my wife says she wasn't having an affair at all, and isn't now. Despite overwhelming (IMHO) evidence to the contrary, she still denies it. If she could admit it to me or to herself, then maybe more detail would be appropriate for the kids. But otherwise, its a she said he said argument that pits the kids in the middle to determine who the bearers of truth are. Neither should be subjected to having to choose which parent is lying to them. Its patently unfair, again in my opinion.

I have told my wife that someday they will ask...and I will tell them. I will tell them about our relationship and why it broke up because I don't want them to follow my path. Luckily, I have learned so much about how these things can work that I am in the position to teach them how to enter and retain positive relationships with people. Something that my wife and I never learned (despite both of our parents marriages still together).

So perhaps I am soft-sided, or defering to my emotions on this one...perhaps. I do like Bugsmoms approach in restating her love for her WS to the children, and I will likely tell them that. I will let her answer the inevitable "why's". Great post Larry, its really taken off fast and I think there is plenty of good advice for all sides of this debate.

Removed. TMI.

My kids--17,15, and 12, at the time, witnessed their dad COMPLETELY zoned out in the months before DDay. In particular the week before he left town with OW. 17 yr old had a talk with dad. It was uncanny because my son was acting more like an adult than his father. Wisdom from the mouths of babes, but dad decided not to hear it.
DDay--well I crumbled onto the floor in a fetal position after getting a late night phone call from OW'H. It was kinda hard to keep it from the kids. Not that I would have. I agree with Mortarman.

When I was a kid, my parents got along marvelously. Then, one day out of the blue, Dad left--for OW.

Who knew?

I think kids deserve to know what it going on,lest, they create their own stories. Not good.

This is an important point you make here and is usually the case. Rather than looking down on a wayward spouse, a child can see a person who did a bad thing, but is remorseful and made it right. Kids can respect that. A recovered WS is an example of good character.

I have to tell you that I have some serious lingering resentments over this issue and most especially the practice of lying to kids. My mother's failure to tell me the truth about my father led me to believe he was a trusted role model and a decent man, so when he introduced corrupting influences into my life as a young teen, I was ill equipped and ill prepared. She caused me enormous psychological problems by lying to me about my father. Not only was I morally confused, but I seriously questioned my ability to discern reality because nothing ever made sense.


Had my mother told me the truth about my father, his affairs, his corrupt character, etc, I might have not had such blind, unwitting trust. I had no defense against this because she neglected to give me any moral guidance.

I always sensed something was not quite RIGHT in his little schemes but could never give voice to it because I was so immature. I was ALL ON MY OWN, baby! Instead I learned to silence that small protesting voice inside because my instincts about right and wrong were never validated. I made them go away instead because I was a ......very stupid girl.

Oh Melody, this is such a sore point with me. My wife is from the school of never saying bad about a bio parent out of respect for the kid. We have a POJA on this, but I was not and am still not totally convinced that our agreement was the right one. I won't go against a POJA, but am going to do some research and bring it up again sometime this summer or fall. I think it is time we had discussions with the two kids about their father.

My point will be, subject to research modification, that we do not have to be unkind, just factual.

Larry

I saw this on the net, and think this is how it often goes. This is one reason I think the BS needs to tell the truth.

• “ Johnny, you may have noticed that mommy and daddy have been fighting and we don’t get along very well”. The father leaves out the part that the reason he and his wife don’t get along is because he (the dad) is causing the behavior that insures that they will not get along.
• “I have to tell you something. I fell in love with this woman at the office. I didn’t mean to. It just happened. It was beyond my control. I couldn’t help it. It was just something that happened to me and I can’t help the way I feel about her”. The dad is taking no responsibility for his actions. The dad is sending the message to his son that it is not his (the dad’s) fault, and that he (the dad) had no choice to make in this matter. The dad is manipulating the child by posturing as if the dad is innocent, in order to obtain the child’s sympathy. The dad is also soliciting the child’s blessing, due to the situation being “beyond the helpless dad’s control”. This manipulation of the child is self servingly narcissistic and diabolical. The dad made his own choices all the way down the line without any consideration for Johnny. Had the dad put Johnny first, the dad would not have made the devastating choices that impacted Johnny’s life in the first place.
• “I’m sorry to tell you that I have to leave your mother. You see, I just don’t love her anymore and I need to be happy.” When you get married, you vow in front of God and the law to love and honor your spouse, “till death do you part”. This is called a “commitment”. This is called “a promise”. This is making “a covenant”. This is not a vow that I will stay with this person as long as this person makes me fell good about myself and as long as everything goes my way. This is a commitment to stand by that person and your future children for a lifetime in order to provide a safe and nurturing environment for your children. This is a commitment to work out any problems that may arise, in order to keep your vow and to protect the emotional and physical needs of your family. Because you have made this commitment, you do not have the right to choose to fall out of love with your spouse. The best way to love your children is to love their mother or their father and to keep that commitment to each other which provides a safe environment for your children to grow, learn, to feel secure and to be loved in.
• “Don’t you want me to be happy Johnny?” What about Johnny’s happiness?
• “Johnny, please don’t think that this has anything to do with you.” That’s just the point. It has nothing to do with Johnny because Johnny is not even being considered in the equation. It’s all about the “me”, the selfish “me”.
• “I want you to be clear that I am not leaving you. I am leaving your mother.” This is quite confusing to the child because the fact is; the father is no longer in the home, so the truth is that he has left the child also.
• “You see, your mother and I don’t get along, and this other woman, her name is Jane, makes me feel good about myself.” Guys, get a clue! Women know that if they want to steal you away from your family, all they have to do is stroke your ego and tell you how wonderful you are and that you are always right. It’s the oldest manipulative trick in the book. Husbands and wives fight. Husbands and wives don’t get along some of the time, or all of the time if one of the spouses is imposing dysfunctional behavior on to the other. This does not mean that you look for a pretty thing that will affirm and make you fell better about your horrible behavior towards your family. This means that you take responsibility for your behavior and actions, ask forgiveness from the other spouse and work on mending what you have broken in the relationship in order that you, your spouse and your children remain safe in every way.
• “Johnny, I think you will agree that I have the right to be happy, don’t you? You wouldn’t want me to go through the rest of my life being unhappy, would you? You want me to be happy Johnny, don’t you?” It’s obvious that the dad’s happiness is far more important than Johnny’s happiness, security and well-being.
• “Oh, by the way, some things will be changing. Your mom is going to have to get a job because with my new life” with his mistress and her children, “I won’t be able to bring in enough money to support two households. We will be selling the house so that your mommy can go live her life, and so that I can go live my life. You and your mom are really going to have to scale down on some things because there’s just not going to be enough money to live the way you are accustomed to, because you and your mom will be in a place of your own, and I will be in a place of my own” with the mistress ad her two children. “Don’t worry, you can come and visit me every other weekend and we can take some vacations together on holidays” with the mistress and her children.
• “By the way, I will be moving in with Jane” the mistress. “I want you to meet her two children. Bobby is 12 and Susan is 15. They will be living with me and Jane in my house. Won’t that be fun?” Not only is daddy leaving Johnny, but he also will be living with two other children. The dynamic of living with these other children will place Johnny’s dad in the position of being a dad to two other children that are not his own. So lets review. Daddy is no longer living with me, but he is living with and fathering two other kids that aren’t his. Hay, he’s my dad! Not their dad! "

MM:


I called my buddy and asked, bluntly, what he said. He said he could laugh about it now, but at the time, it was no laughing matter and he was dead wrong. As he remembered it, he confronted his wife and the kids overheard. Then he told his kids that "Your mom is having sex (actual word starts with an f) [with] that [dang] jailbird, druggie she went with before he was sent to jail and she met me. I could kick her [word] for doing that to me and the family, she is stupid."

Now that has to be top of the list for doing and saying the wrong thing to the kids. Anybody got one better?

Larry