Also just because they MAY or MAY not be still married, living together, separated, etc doesn't mean she cannot still be a weapon busting up the affair. This is certainly true if they have children together. She may not take kindly to her EX??? H having an affair around their children if they are have any. Just a thought.

Brae:

She may also give you lots of other intelligence that you can use to continue to expose.

Don't forget that.

If she has moved out and on, think of how she will dish it to you... And if they are seperated, she may not ever mention it to OM.

And how much more info you will have that WW will not know about... You will have the power then...

LG

Speaking from experience...the last thing you want to do is give into stuff like: "I need space" "I need privacy" "I just need time" "Lets keep this secret and work it out ourselves" "I just want to be friends with OM" "I want to be single for awhile" "If you don't do x I will just leave you"...all of these are deceptions so the affair can continue...and the longer it continues the harder it will be to stop or you will not be able to stop it at all. In case I think you are fortunate that you probably caught it pretty early but it is going to still be very difficult to stop but stop it you must...expose...make things difficult...do not negotiate.

I speak from experience...when I found out about my W affair...I tried to put a stop to it immediately but she ended up manipulating me and got me to negotiate and it allowed the A to continue and actually in the end made it easier for her...we are now in divorce preceedings. While I have regrets my marriage is ending it is not all bad as it looks like I will get custody of my son but if you want to truly save your marriage you really need to make a stand and put a stop to it...pull out all stops...confirm everything...do not trust her right now.

Last night was better, we both just concentrated on making sure DD was ok. We all spent family time together.

I am struggling when i do get the "You will never trust me again", "I will never be allowed out" etc.
Any tips on good non-confrontational answers.

These commments tell me she is trying to manipulate you, braeworth. She wants you to agree to her going out to meet the OM and feels she is entitled to TRUST. She wants you to hand her TRUST and complicity. That is what this is all about.

And of course you don't trust her now, that has to be earned. So, tell her of course you don't trust her now, but you could if she worked hard to earn it back. What is she willing to do to earn it back?

And she doesn't need your permission to go out. You are not her daddy. if she wants to go out, she can, but you should go with her.

WS: you will never trust me again

BS: I am willing to give you a chance to earn it back. What kinds of things are you willing to do to earn back trust? I am open to ideas

WS: I am not "allowed" to go out

BS: hon, I am not your daddy, you don't need my permission. You can go out any time you want and I would love to go with you.

ML. I have explained that she needs to earn my trust again.
It is not going out with me that it the problem, it is going to visit her friends. As you say I can't stop her but she knows i am going to question her about what she has been up to.

braeworth, then maybe it would be a good idea for you to go with her. Explain to her that if she wants to earn trust, then she should stop doing things that make you not trust her. Its real simple. Just go with her and then there will be nothing to question.

ML. Thanks again. This is where the problem arises, she doesn't want me living in her pocket and i can understand that but as you say she has to earn the trust back. I thought of maybe dropping her off and then picking her up again.

How do you think she would react to that? See, I think if you explain that one leads to another she will stop saying this. Because the solution is in HER HANDS, not yours.

If she does things to earn trust, then you won't distrust her anymore. And going out with her friends does nothing but cause you distress and makes you trust her LESS. She needs to be doing things that ENGENDER trust, not things that make it worse.

But she is MARRIED TO YOU, you are supposed to live in her pocket. Rather, she wants the freedom to do things in secret. That is the problem. Why can't you go with her?

Going out alone is harmful to your marriage, especially when there is a trust issue. Why would she want to harm your marriage?

Mel's on the money here, Brae.

My wife used that same tactic with me..."You'll never trust me again.". I simply told her point blank that I didn't trust her NOW...with good reason. Right now, she couldn't trust herself to do the right thing...how could she expect me to trust her in that case? It would be pretty stupid of me to do so. I told her that I knew that it wouldn't last...that she could rebuild that trust. In our case, our 17 year old daughter (at the time) had just majorly violated our trust in another way...and we'd had the conversation with her a few months prior about her rebuilding her trust with us...that she had to earn it back. I related the same thing to my wife...that she'd have to rebuild that trust with me, but that it could be done. And she has...I trust her now in ways that I wouldn't have thought possible shortly after the affair.

As far as time alone with her friends...tell her that right now obviously isn't the right time to be doing that. Because that's too much of a strain on your already wounded marriage. Let the marriage heal, and see where things fall out later...THEN talk about going out with friends. Right now, she knows that she can't trust herself not to contact OM, so there's no reason she SHOULD be out 'on her own' right now.

Be honest and up front with all of this...not confrontational, just point blank. I went through all of this with my wife too...just keep your calm, but stand your ground.

This is tough.
She also needs to spend time with her girl friends occassionally, even if it is just at their house.

WHY?!?!?!

And especially...WHY NOW?!?!?!

Dude...no she doesn't need to spend time anywhere right now. What she NEEDS to do is to get her head straight and start working on the damage she's done to you and her marriage. Going to her friends isn't likely to get her head straight...UNLESS...you happen to know that they're all strong supporters of your marriage and are likely to be giving her the right kind of advice and guidance. And that they'll help PREVENT her from using that time to contact OM.

Yes, some 'unwind' time might do her some good...if it's done properly. It could also provide her the perfect chance to resume her affair with OM. Or it might put her out with people that would condone what she's done, not hold her accountable for her actions, and result in the same thing.

You should know these friends of hers to some extent...so what's the likely outcome of her going out with them? What are the odds that your wife will use this time to resume her affair? Are you willing to play those odds?

This isn't rocket science.

Right now, she DOES need to start doing things that can take her mind off OM, and off her withdrawl. Why not invite her out on a date...and tell her that it's going to be a night in which absolutely NO discussion about OM, the marriage, your relationship, or anything else negative will be allowed. It will be left out of that date completely...instead, go do something FUN!!! Give her something to get her mind off of the situation that's still safe for your marriage.

Does she have hobbies, or have hobbies that she did prior to the affair that she hasn't been doing? Try getting her re-engaged in those...again, as long as it's not something that will put her at risk to contact OM. You might even consider asking her to teach you those hobbies, so that you've got something in common to share with her. I learned how to crochet...and am glad I did so!

I've been married for almost 20 years. My wife is welcome to go with friends if she wants...and about once a month or so she DOES go to a crafting gathering near the house. She could go every week...but doesn't because she doesn't NEED to. I do martial arts 3x/week...but most of the time its in my own home...and while the guys have asked me out for drinks or whatever afterwards, I don't go...not my style. I don't NEED to go out with anyone either.

What your wife needs is some safe unwind time. Try my suggestion. Or if that doesn't work, her going out with someone that YOU trust to keep her out of trouble can be acceptable. Make sense?

Thanks Owl,
We have been out for a couple of meals together and other things, just it is difficult for both of us not to start talking about the situation, i know this is making her more unhappy because it is me.

So fix that trend. One of the good things our MC setup was that we only talked about the affair/marriage/etc... for a set time every night. One hour. After that, we took notes on where we were, and resumed the next night. It let us have the rest of the evening WITHOUT discussing it further. It wasn't easy to stick to that schedule at first, but it got easier with time.

Part of what she needs from you right now is to feel safe to be honest around you. She needs to know that you're not going to bite her head off when she simply says how she feels. So you do need to make her feel safe...but...you also have to balance that against becoming a doormat. So you learn to LISTEN, and accept when she says "I feel trapped and hurt right now", but to gently correct her when she says "You make me feel..."...let her know that you're not the one making her anything. Get the idea?

Seriously...its HARD to do, but it was a critical part of why we recovered. Learn to set the situation aside for some periods of time, and give yourself the opportunity to unwind and get some downtime from all that stress. If you don't, the only thing she's going to see from you IS that stress...and who wants to stay with someone that makes them feel that way? Instead, give her the chance to see the fun and excitement and joy that your relationship CAN have...used to have. Date her, court her again. Right now, courting her actively might not work well if she's in withdrawl...so do it unobtrusively. Like I said...take her out of the house to do do something FUN...and make it YOUR job to ensure that the discussion NEVER goes into affair/marriage/relationship.

You DO need to talk about this stuff...but you need to talk about it part of the time, and have time where the two of you can just "be".

I don't recall...are you guys starting marriage counseling? If not, THIS is a key reason why you need to. To learn how to wade through this stuff without destroying the work you're doing to rebuild the marriage.

You are definitely still on very shakey ground...I almost guarantee the reason she is looking for space....time with her girlfriends, etc...is because she is looking to continue to explore the affair.

She is still in the fog...she has to know her marriage is in a very compromised state, very damaged...and yet she is still kind of exploring ways to get more freedom, etc...she is not taking the possible loss of her marriage seriously...think about it...if she wanted to save the marriage she would be doing everything in her power to make sure you trusted her and not put you in bad situations (like how you are trying to save your marriage). Watch her...and do not trust her.

cool, then go with her. She doesn't NEED to spend time with them alone, she wants to. She needs to restore the trust she ruined in her marriage.

This isn't hard, braeworth. She can do whatever she wants, but make it clear that spending time away with her friends without you is causing FURTHER HARM to your marriage and increasing the destroyed trust. Why would she want to do that? That is just a FACT.

Rollercoaster Weekend
Had three days together as it was a public holiday yesterday.

Had some not too bad moments and some horrible moments. Yesterday we took DD to a theme park and it was fun.
Saturday we all went shopping together, no problem.
Friday evening i tried to kiss her, she let me but then told me it still feels like she is kissing a relative and there is absolutely nothing there.
She also told me last night that she still feels that she does not want to be married anymore, that she has seen another life where she can make all her own decisions without having to consult anyoe else.
I am really worried, she has said she will still give it a few months to see how we are going and i have asked her to keep talking to me and let me know when something is upsetting her.
It is only three weeks since NC started and she did see him again last Tuesday but i don't think she has seen him since and she does seem to be making a real effort.
Do you think this is the fog talking, I know every case is different but how long is it before her feelings might start to return. Is it when she comes through withdrawal?
It is so hard to not be able to kiss someone you have been in love with for 24 years and up until about 4 weeks ago seemed happy with me

Braeworth - it's fog and withdrawal and 100% typical.

It is NOT 3 weeks NC - sorry it's 6 days - last contact was Tuesday right? So the withdrawal clock resets.

Look My wife would have said EXACTLY the same thing word for word.

She actually made a decision to kiss me, have SF with me. She felt nothing at first. She was getting worried that the "feelings" were not there. She had thought the feelings would return quicker.

All I can say is Feelings FOLLOW actions. Fake it till you make it.

We are now - oh I dunno, 20 plus months oiut from d-day in a passionate loving recovered marriage. It works is all I can say.

NC is VITAL in this. VITAL. NC>>>>WITHDRAWAL>>>>Recovery