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MEDC you basically called me a fool because I didn't agree?
I can assure you I am not a fool NO, I called you a fool because you are reading and posting on a thread that by its very title is insulting to you. I called you a fool, because in this instance, you earned the title. I am certain that in most areas you do not. And your argument about it turning someone off if they saw Marriage and the Koran is baseless since there are so many threads... heck, you could use that argument for just about any thread that doesn't read.. my spouse cheated on me.
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NO, I called you a fool because you are reading and posting on a thread that by its very title is insulting to you. Thanks again. I will not argue that point with you. You have so much experience evidently I wouldn't want to spar with you on this one. And your argument about it turning someone off if they saw Marriage and the Koran is baseless I don't know what makes it baseless other then you said it was baseless. Then again you told me another point didn't have credibility either. You didn't explain why you just made the statement. Glad to see you are the judge on that front. So I base my statment off of this fact: if on the day I logged into MB and if I saw threads like "The Dali Lama and Divorce" or Rabbi Schmuli and Marriage. I might get the improper impression that this board follows a certain religious belief system. I might decide to go somewhere else. If you can certainly gaurauntee that this won't happen to a non christian GREAT. Do I believe people are thin skinned about it? Not really but then again when I came here for help my head wasn't completely screwed on straight, you know with the affair and all. So I went to several sites and some with religious overtones and then settled in here. I personally chose non denominational advice not christian advice. My Personall choice. there are so many threads... heck, you could use that argument for just about any thread that doesn't read.. my spouse cheated on me. You could argue that. ****Never argue with an idiot they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.****
BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby
When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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I must be some kind of fool or something for coming 2 this thread... from bk: One thing I am sure of is the illegitimacy of affair marriages for believers. For unbelievers I am currently undecided. (However my current thinking is that they would not have to divorce and could stay married.) As one who would be categorized as an "unbeliever" in a thread like this, I would say that this is still a pretty clear-cut morality issue. I simply don't think it moral 2 marry an A-partner. I would think that personal integrity would require an individual 2 rank personal integrity above personal feelings (which, as we all know, change over time), and avoid such a union. -ol' 2long
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I simply don't think it moral 2 marry an A-partner. I agree 2long.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Me three. Immorality is the defining cause of adultery.
And forgiveness for someone who accepts Christ is total, covering all their sins.
So the point of all this agreement is what?
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FH... you really can get under my skin with this stuff sometimes.... the purpose of the agreement was.... hmmm... agreement....
It is your OPINION FH that an affair M is not a continuation of sin... it is your OPINION based on your interpretation of scripture...just as it is MM's. There are people out there a lot more learned than you that agree and some that disagree with your take on Scripture. I have read the relevant Scripture and arguments that suppport your point of view... I have also read the arguments against and this ring more true to me. That doesn't make me right or you wrong...it doesn't make you a better Christian... it just means we see things differently... period.
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So the point of all this agreement is what? Come on FH - all the other stuff in this thread and you choose to respond to THIS???? Is there nothing else in your bag of tricks?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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I must be some kind of fool or something for coming 2 this thread... And I must be into self abuse of some kind... I simply don't think it moral 2 marry an A-partner. But the argument by some here is that if one stays in the affair marriage long enough it becomes sort of moral... Not that I can see in scripture. Very smart, faith filled and holy theologians have thought long and hard about variations on this issue for a couple of thousand years now. The vast majority say no. Even Martin Luther said no in some of his writings. In any case, it will always be unethical.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Not that I can see in scripture. Very smart, faith filled and holy theologians have thought long and hard about variations on this issue for a couple of thousand years now. The vast majority say no. Even Martin Luther said no in some of his writings. Well that holds no water with MM and FH Aph unfortunately. Their own special revelation superseedes that.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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"If you call me Francis again, I'll kill ya!" LOL...The "Francis" was for da Frogster! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Mrs. W I know, I just wanted to get in the quote.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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The Catholic Church is different. MM. Yes I agree. Still Christianity though right? Yeah. But as I said, I am not interested in following a religion. I am interested in what God says thru His word and thru the Holy Spirit. All of the rest is man. In many cases, there is nothing wrong with that, as traditions, etc are usually good things. But if it conflicts with the Word, then guess who has it wrong? (Hint: it aint God!) If there was a thread here that said "Marriage, Divorce and the Koran"...I just wouldnt open it. I see you registered on 6/18/02, I am sure you like I lurked for a while. Lets say you found this site, then found the message board then read, Marriage Divorce and the Koran, you may think, Well this isn't the board for me. Just a possiblity. I am sure it would turn some off. That is my point on that. If I was turned off by that, I had bigger problems than my affair. No way I am going to just see one thread and go "Nope, I'm outta here." Anyone that sensitive has HUGE issues! Forever and MEDC. What has always struck me about religion as perplexing is the intolerance of some within that religion to a desenting opinion. MEDC you basically called me a fool because I didn't agree? I can assure you I am not a fool. Foreverhers. "LOL" The attempt to cover up by appealing to humor is falling flat. I am trying to make light of a situation that is quite insulting to be honest. Being called a fool is probably not funny but I see some people hold their beliefs so High that it is ok to pass judgement on others. ahhhh...seems like the slippery slope is gaining momentum. Maybe you can clarify this statement because I don't understand it. Lot's of people claim to be Christians. Claiming the title is not the same thing as being a Christian. I agree with you on that whole heartedly But since you bring it up, why do you think you are Christian Because my definition seems to be different then yours. I think there is something in the bible about judging others. Could be wrong but until the day I am told to Answer to FH about my faith I will withold any further comment. and why do you think that the Bible is not God's Word? God never took pen to paper last I checked. I do not see one book in the bible written by Jesus Christ. Some of the books in the bible were written well in advance of Jesus and some well after his death. Some attributed to people who didn't even write it. There are unknown authors in some portions. How can you be so steadfast to beleive the word of someone that isn't identified. There was a movie and when they were transcribing the bible one of the Priests was all uset he said "it says celebrate not celebate. MM It doesnt necessarily mean it is Biblical (please...I dont want to start the Catholic-Protestant war again!!). Isn't religion the cause o fmost wars? That is what really makes me quetsion a lot. People killing people in the Name of God. Nah...most wars are fought because of greed. But I hear your point. Which is why I dont follow a religion. Christianity, true Christianity, is not a religion. It is a relationship with a living, breathing person (Jesus). Everything else flows from that. So, if I am out sinning, it is obvious I dont have a relationship with Jesus.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Really? I dont think I ever claimed that all Christian scholars agreed on any of this. Consensus really doesnt matter to me. What I am searching for is the truth.
If most of the scholars are right, then great. If they arent, then who cares? Well thank you MM for stating your opinion is better than everyone else's. That's a really nice limb to be out on. Didnt say that, BK. Actually, my text was the exact opposite! It was that no matter what my stand is, if it is PROVEN wrong, then I change. I hold fast to NOTHING. But, I also change NOTHING without proof. So, if I am wrong, I am a reasonable man. I listen to all sides. I inquire and get more info. And then I listen to the Holy Spirit...who is the one who will decifer much of it for me. But, no where did I say I was superior or all knowing. I actually said the opposite!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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I would actually be very worried MM if my "special" interpretation and revelation of scripture was at odds with the words of the early church fathers and scholars over the last 2000 years. Maybe I would be...but as I said, I dont think it is. There have been scholars on both sides of the equation since the beginning of the church.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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MM the lord told me today that spongebob squarepants is an apostle, so it must be true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> BK...never mind.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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FH... you really can get under my skin with this stuff sometimes.... the purpose of the agreement was.... hmmm... agreement....
It is your OPINION FH that an affair M is not a continuation of sin... it is your OPINION based on your interpretation of scripture...just as it is MM's. There are people out there a lot more learned than you that agree and some that disagree with your take on Scripture. I have read the relevant Scripture and arguments that suppport your point of view... I have also read the arguments against and this ring more true to me. That doesn't make me right or you wrong...it doesn't make you a better Christian... it just means we see things differently... period. I agree with 2Long also. But MEDC...you are still not getting what either FH or I are saying. What just wrote is NOT my position...and I am quite sure it isnt FH's.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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I must be some kind of fool or something for coming 2 this thread... And I must be into self abuse of some kind... I simply don't think it moral 2 marry an A-partner. But the argument by some here is that if one stays in the affair marriage long enough it becomes sort of moral... Not that I can see in scripture. Very smart, faith filled and holy theologians have thought long and hard about variations on this issue for a couple of thousand years now. The vast majority say no. Even Martin Luther said no in some of his writings. In any case, it will always be unethical. Vast majority? Hhmmmm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And who is making the argument that if you stay in it long enough than it is legit? I havent read anyone saying that...but maybe I missed that post, Aph.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Hiya Frognomore: Interesting bit about the American Catholic Church. On their site, they discuss the validity of their sacraments, including marriage. And I appreciate your words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Folks: I have read this thread, no not every word, some of it frankly makes my eyes glaze over. I don't know that all of us have a calling to delve deeply in the finer points of various denomination dogma although I did get very interested in it at one point in my life. I finally reached the conclusion that there were so many differences of opinion because there were so many people. For me, I am not hung up on how someone chooses to celebrate God. I think the world is a better place because people do celebrate Christ instead of some of the alternatives that are just plain murderous; much like it was for Christianity some centuries ago. Over time, much of the stupid was beat out of both the Catholic Church and at least some of its offspring, not counting Koresh and Jones (koolaid). My primary faith is based on my belief that our God is a merciful God. At least I hope so. And I have good reason to so hope, imperfect person that I am. I do appreciate the research and opinions of those who are posting. I do understand that there is something deeply satisfying for someone who takes the time to delve into scripture in depth. Larry
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Not that I can see in scripture. Very smart, faith filled and holy theologians have thought long and hard about variations on this issue for a couple of thousand years now. The vast majority say no. Even Martin Luther said no in some of his writings. Well that holds no water with MM and FH Aph unfortunately. Their own special revelation superseedes that. BK, what special revelation is giving you your position? The truth of the matter is there are learned scholars on both sides of the issue. You are using the same argument skills that the pro-global warming crowd is using. "Our scholars know what they are talking about...yours are quacks...this is settled science." Then we begin to find out that there are scholars out there, very good ones, that dont agree and for good reason! The Catholic Church for a very long time put itself out there as the only arbiter for spiritual issues. Then, some pieces of paper were stuck to the door and things changed. I am talking about what I have learned, based on research, based on what scholars on both sides have to say. But at the end of the day, you dont need scholars to read the Bible. It is very easy to read, and to understand...if you are a believer. The Holy Spirit is the one who interprets passages for us. Have I been wrong before? Sure! Probably will be again! But the issue here at hand is one that I have seen the arguments from all sides and still find the position taken by your side (which I used to agree with) still having huge gaps in it and still in conflict with parts of Scripture. But nowhere in here did I make snide remarks about your position or anyone else's.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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BK, what special revelation is giving you your position? The truth of the matter is there are learned scholars on both sides of the issue. MM - that is precisely the point I am making, yet you and FH seem to think your opinion is the truth. Now if you have actually read my posts on this thread you would see that I AM UNDECIDED DUH I claim NO SPECIAL revelation AT ALL You and FH are just like the people on the global warming debate or even evolutionists. You claim your OPINION as fact. And if you had NOT BEEN DOING THAT I would have most probably stayed out of the debate altogether. But to be honest I am tired of seeing FH's opinions in particular being peddled as indisputable fact. and it isn't INDISPUTABLE by a long shot. Yet your whole tone is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. SO to be blindingly clear, let me state that *I* have not formed an absolute opinion on these matters. I think the scriptures are unclear. I find the arguements I have presented to have merit. I am deeply disturbed at the ramifications of the quotes I posted from the early (like 80AD) church fathers who sat under the teaching of the apostles. Neither of you has addressed that one. But at the end of the day, you dont need scholars to read the Bible. It is very easy to read, and to understand...if you are a believer. The Holy Spirit is the one who interprets passages for us. Well sometimes it isn't so easy to understand MM. These are complex issues and take any two people - they will both have a different interpretation even when being lead by the Holy Spirit.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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