and baloney about Dahmer... even the Lord recognizes that all sins are NOT equal.

It is clear, MEDC. But what is NOT clear to you about 2nd Samuel? What is NOT clear by what Jesus did at the Cross? What is NOT clear about what Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery?

From the beginning of sin, man has been constantly shedding blood to atone for his sins. We used lambs...right up until Jesus came. Then He became THE lamb, and shed His blood to cover ALL of our sins.

Now, does that mean according to the Leviticus passage that you just listed, that what Jesus did was not atonement for my sins...was not payment? Am I still to pay for my sins? If so, then what good was what Jesus did?

Again, I am not talking physical death and punsihment here. I am talking spiritual death. David paid many times over for his sins in this world. But spiritually, he was forgiven when he repented...and the price paid for his sins was not a lamb...but his own son.

Again, that is why I keep harping on the fact that the Bible MUST be taken in its entirety. The first rule of Bible study is that if a meaning of a passage is in violation with other Scripture...then that aint the meaning!!

The Leviticus passages and 2nd Samuel passages are very much in harmony!

Not equal how??? In punishment in this life? Sure! In being forgiven by God and being placed in the Lambs Book of Life? Nope.

All sins are forgiven the same when it comes to salvation. God does not grade on a curve!

MM... you are absolutely avoiding the answer that is clear as can be in that passage According to OT law.... David.... not a child... not a sheep....DAVID should have been killed. God had not yet sent His Son to pay for our sins. The OT laws were in effect MM... and the LAWS... not the customs of the times... we very clear. Come on MM, you are a law and order guy.... following the letter of the law... even the spirit of the law, David was to be executed. There is no doublespeak that will make that disappear.

I am avoiding nothing. Let's turn this around...

Why did God forgive David instead of allowing him to be killed because of his adultery? Because He grants exceptions to His laws?

In other words, why this?

Why would the sinner suffer a spiritual death and the innocent child of his sin suffer a physical death?

First off, remember...the child isnt innocent. We are spiritually dead...even as a child. We deserve He!! even as a fetus.

See, we like to think that it is because we DID something wrong, is because we are sent to He!!. That isnt it.

It isnt that we did something wrong...it is that we are wrong. Everything we do is wrong (which is why the little old lady that gives all of her money to the poor and is just so nice to everyone, will still end up in He!! if she has not accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior).

When we drink our coffee in the morning, we are wrong. It is not what we do...it is a state of being. Thanks to Adam, we are born apart from God. We are born spiritually dead!

That child was not innocent. Sure, he was innocent of the crime of adultery. But God already has a reason to take everyone of us today.

On why He allowed the subsititution? Because God had a plan. David had been screwing up that plan. But God's will is always done. So, thru David's screw ups, God still got His heir (Solomon) that would continue the line to Jesus. If God had taken David, the line would have ended...and Satan would have won!

Hmm...A few assertions there MM.

So..you conclude that unsaved children...children too young to rationally BE saved and make a choice all go to ****** when they die?

That seems to be what you are implying.

Secondly..the child WAS innocent of *that* crime. The crime that was being punished. Using that model I could go to jail instead of good old Jeffrey and that'd be fine..as long as SOMEONE pays since we are all in a state of perpetual guilt.

Let's just do away with any sort of punative system at all in that case. We can't enforce ANY law without being a hypocrite.

Thirdly Jesus was a VOLUNTARY sacrifice. He did choose to obey Gods will rather than his own desire to not suffer.

The way you are setting this up MM...I have to say it really sounds like you had just better be one of the people who count or matter in his plan because otherwise you may very well be cannon fodder.

The way you are describing this makes God himself subject to his design in terms of mere ancestry rather than law.

If someone in the design is screwing it up we better squeeze that kid out of them before we let someone murder him and so we just blind eye or substitute when necessary.

Everyone ELSE though had better expect to pay for their crimes in the right here right now sense of the word in order to obey the law as commanded.

Your interpretation...I have to say...casts serious doubt for me on both the nature of God and the reliability of scripture if I accept it.

Nope. I am saying they DESERVE He!!. As do all of us. Not that they were going there.

The child was not punished! David was punished. David lost his chiild because of his transgressions. He had to live with the continual pain of that for the rest of his life. The child was sick...all God decided to do was to not intervene. He allowed the death so David could be punished.

He is subject to his design. Why did Pharoah kill all of the first born males? Because he was trying to stop the lineage to Christ. Satan knew this. Satan knew he needed to interuppt God's plans...and then there would be no Cross...and Satan would not be destroyed.

Too often, we think that man has freewill and God doesnt. We think that we get to choose Jesus but He doesnt get to choose us.

And it doesnt work that way!

He gets to choose also. He is sovereign. It says in Scripture that He chose believers. Well, some unbelievers state "that isnt fair." Well, why not? Doesnt it say that unbelievers can choose Jesus?

I know it is a chicken and egg thing here...but suffice it to say that God does get a say in all of this. He does get a choice in the matter!

He has destroyed whole civilizations because of their sin. Nineva is a great example. Even children were not to be spared. Why? Because God knew the hearts of even the children and knew they would never repent.

It is hard for us to understand that God knows everything. He has already seen the future. And that He has a purpose for everyone of us. No one is an accident. Everyone has a part in His will, His purposes. Even unbelievers.

I don't have a hard time personally grasping that God knows everything.

What is hard to grasp is that God is so alien.

He does not value what we [as mere mortals] value.

He does not think as we think.

Does not view life/death/time as we do.

The real question for me then is...if it doesn't matter to him why should it matter to me?

I'll be born..do some stuff...then die.

None of it really matters, life has no meaning or relevence aside from recognising the sovereignty of the creator.

Now MM...I'm going to call you on a few things.

You are saying both that the child WAS used as a substitute [for what? punishment of the crime of adultery] then also saying the child wasn't punished. Just happened to be sick.

If God didn't cause him to be sick or cause him to die then HOW was the child a substitute?

Because it hurt?

Next..regarding unsaved children....look I understand the concept of being born with a sin nature...but either there is a mechanism in place to shelter those who still don't sin willingly or there isn't.

If a child dies before it could choose salvation it either is held accountable or it isn't.

If it isn't held accountable then it can't be regarded with the same "guilty" condemnation as an adult who is likewise guilty or in a state of guilt but who has willfully rejected salvation.

Also God is the arbitrer of life and death so killing a child under those circumstances would be literally condemning them to ******.

Using the examples you have given of God condemning children along with the rest of the wicked because they were conceived in wickedness...raised in wickedness..and their hearts were wicked...well that's not looking good for the idea that an A marriage ought to stay together for the children. Looks more like that sick enviromnent is corrupting the children and crafting a future of continued rebellion.

Regarding Pharoah...we are failing to consider that God did not intervene with regard to the killing of the firstborn EXCEPT to shelter the kid he wanted a lineage out of.

which suggests to me two things.

1 God regards death or suffering with absolute indifference.

2 He is completely capable of picking one fish out of the tide and struggle against him is futile.

Pharoah and Satan never had a chance..there was NO WAY to interrupt his will and their attemps are both gruesome and laughable.

Weaver, none of us, imho, can say "why" the baby died. All we know with absolute certainty is that God is SOVEREIGN and does what is right and what He has willed. God "makes the rules" because He is Sovereign Lord. God makes the rules for mankind, God is the only Judge, and God can hand down, enforce, or commute any sentence He wants to and does not answer to "man."

This is just speculation on my part, but perhaps "one" answer to your question could be that the child of David and Bathsheba that was conceived in adultery could not be the one to continue God's covenant. The baby that was conceived by David and Bathsheba born to them AFTER David repented and was forgiven by God, was Solomon. This was the child that God meant to continue the covenant through, even with all of his failings in life. Why?

Perhaps God was giving us yet another example of "before" and "after." Before repentance and after repentance. Note that God did not tell David that one of his consequences for his grave sin was to have to divorce Bathsheba. That is very interesting, at least if you follow the logic of MEDC. There should have been no marriage to divorce because by the Law of Moses, both David and Bathsheba should have been put to death. But God intervened and in His Sovereign right as THE judge, ruled that the sentence of death was commuted, that the marriage would continue, that God would provide His blessing to that marriage in the person of Solomon and that Solomon would be loved by God, that other consequences of the adultery would be visited upon David, and that David's "position" with God as forgiven and loved was secure.


First, God is faithful to all of His covenants.

Second, nothing David (or anyone else for that matter) did, does, or would do, is "new news to God." God has known each of us from the beginning of time, from before we were conceived in the womb. God knows ALL about us, where we are strong and where we are weak.

Third, God shows us that He does NOT judge according to the standards of "man," but He judges according to His own self.

MEDC doesn't like my referring to the Scriptures for answers, preferring to let his own thoughts supplant God's Word. Why that is so, I don't know. But regardless, let me quote the passage of Scripture that speaks directly to this question, even though we may not fully understand it or even, as in the case of MEDC, "like it."


"What then shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have rasied you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills, He hardens."

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God [which is what MEDC is doing with his position that God should have killed David]? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As He says to Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:14-26 NKJV, emphasis added)

Weaver, does it seem right to us, who often want to live by the letter of the Law, that God should have come in the flesh to suffer and die in our place to pay the JUST penalty for sin that God demands?

And yet, from before the beginning of time, that WAS God's will and plan for the redemption of Mankind. To forgive ALL of our sins THROUGH Jesus Christ for those who simply accept by faith alone the great gift God has made available to us. When we stand before God so we demand entrance into heaven on the basis of what we DID to prove our love for God, such as divorcing a second, or subsequent, marriage partner? Or do we gain entrance SOLELY by what Jesus for us? Can we somehow "buy" our way into heaven?

And it was Jesus who fulfilled that plan in humble obedience to the Father's will. There is NO other name under heaven by which we can be saved.

You know it's strange that I am not getting all bent out of shape over this converstation, like I would have before. Wow, I'm learning to act and respond with grace.

The Bible is a very fascinating book, but if held in a literal sense, it would make God out to be a [censored] of really big proportions.

So, I think I'll keep my interpretation of the bible at a metaphysical level, even psychological and of course metaphorical. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I understand that it is what you live by and how you find your peace, but I want to continue to love God and hold the highest hope that all of us will return home someday, together.

If you believe that we were created by God, in his likeness and that God is love and all encompassing, then I just don't see how you can believe in the bible the way you do.

But if it makes you a better person, more loving husband and father, better citizen... then more power to it.

It still seems like spreading fear to me in a lot of ways. I mean if God didn't hold such comfort for me to believe in, I would be running like the wind away from anything having to do with that book, including God. If I were to listen to you for too long that is.

I was brought up in the Presbyterian church by a mom who taught Sunday School for 20 years of her life, and I have never seen anyone take the bible so literally as you guys do.

And I will never believe that Jesus is the only path to God. That would make God cruel beyond belief. We are children of God, and yet he makes only one path home to him and gives no proof, just a whole lot of scare...and we have to choose it.

How in the world could that make any kind of sense at all.


Thank you for your respectful response to me though. I do appreciate it.

Weaver,

I love your point. Kudo's to you!!!!! Oh and Kudos on not getting upset.

I think you have a wonderul point about running and being scared.

Over the years I have really started to drift from Organized Religion. It is faily well known what has happned in the Roman Catholic church so I was left wondering if I could hear the word of God from that church.

I see people like FH and MEDC who slammed me with no appology, no grace.

I am not the Christian FH is per his opinion but when I realized I offended Big K and I was wrong I appologized.

I think in some people minds on this thread they have to be the Better Christian, the one that knows more about the Bible.

I too share your view that the Bible
I am still perplexed over the fact some books in the bible were NOT written by the people they are attributed too.

We are taking some unknown persons word that this is what John said.

But people quote it like it is the truth. Some books or versus written 50-60 AD.

Translations happening in or around 500 AD.

Heck we use AD and most Scholars think that date is probably wrong by some years.

By all indications Christ was born sooner.

When I think of all of these things I think of the game we played in school called telegraph.

The teacher whispered something into the first childs ear. They then whispered in the next kids ear all the way down the line until the last child said something very different then what the teacher whispered.

I wonder if this ever happened in the bible? A story passed down from one to another could be a litte different then intended. Not to be taken so litterelly.

Heck if MM and FH were told the same exact thing they might interpret it differently then write it differently. Same message different people, different interpretations.

So much here Noodle. Thank you for posting this!

Ed Zachary!

It does matter...but not in the same context as for us. We view life as that time from conception (unless you believe that life doesnt begin until the head exists the womb) until physical death. We dont look outside of that box. God looks at eternity. Never beginning, never ending eternity. So, what we may perceive as significant may be something different in a bigger light.

Ever thought, as you walk through a rain shower, what it is like for the ants??? We are enjoying the rain shower...they are fighting for their lives. It is all in the perspective.

Now, I dont wnat to make God out to be some mean, cruel kid who is putting the magnifying glass on the ant...or is indifferent...because He is not. He is also a personal God. He came and felt what it was like to be human, what it was like to live and die. He did not know that before Jesus...had not experienced it. He took infinity and confined it to time. Try wrapping your mind around that one (I'm not...it hurts my brain!).

It all goes back to "why were we created?" You see, if I build a lawn mower...why did I create such a thing? To mow my lawn, right? So, why did God create man? What is our purpose? In one word, it is love. God created someone He could love and that had the capacity to love Him. But in order to love Him freely, we also needed freewill. we laso had to have the ability to reject Him. It is a two sided coin. As I have said before, God does not send man to He!!. Man chooses to go there.

Okay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH talked about this above very well. We dont know for sure the entire reasoning of God on this. But I do know His nature and know that it was for good. I also know that millions of sheep (innocent) were slaughtered in atonement for people's sins. They paid for the guilty. Again, I think FH covered this quite well above.

God does have such a mechanism. And as FH quoted above, there is Scripture that speaks to this, and speaks to the fact that God grants mercy to whom He chooses. Since we know God is love and God is just, then we know that children who cannot make a decision will not be held accountable. Grace is given.

I understand what you are saying. And you are right! That is one of the pitfalls of what JJ is going thru. They have set a bad example for the children and will be handicapped in raising them. God's way is ALWAYS the best way. When we do it our way, somehow it always falls short!

Of course, He doesnt. Remember, He actually experienced it!!

Well, in a grand sort of way...yes! We are His creation and He can do as He pleases. That being said, He has allowed freewill. We dont have it because we wanted it. We have it because He allowed it. And He is true to His word. You can choose not to follow Him. But that doesnt mean He gives up being sovereign or His plan. He gets to choose too!

Very true. Satan has never had a chance! Pharoah did though! He could have repented...He could have followed God. But God knew before the Earth was even created that Pharoah would not make that choice!

Frog and Weaver,

While I can appreciate what both of you have written, I also wanted to say something here.

If the Bible is correct, if it is the Word of God...and Jesus said He is the only way...then upon your death, you will meet Jesus. And what will He say then? That it was okay to disobey Him? That it didnt matter how you got there, even though He said it did?

If you are right, then none of this matters. Shoot, life doesnt even matter. We can do what we want and God will still love us and accept us.

But if you are wrong, then you are in a very precarious place. There is but one sin that condemns people to He!! and that is denying Christ and what He did on the Cross. And what He did was to make Himself the ONLY way to God...the ONLY way to Heaven.

If that is true...then where does that leave you?

Again, I also am glad no one is getting angry here. This discussion need not collapse into anger. I am appreciative of everyone keeping it above board!!

I read a book a few weeks ago that has me reeling by one statement the author said -

"We should be more concerned with the moderately religious then the deeply religious, as that is where the danger in religions is"

I have been thinking about this so much lately as I feel I am moderately religious these days. FH and MM are not moderately religious, they are deeply religious, as is Aphelian. And 2long is deeply athiest so he would fall into this category as well.

If what the author of that book said is true, I need to go one way or the other. I take that very seriously as in history it has been shown that those in power (hitler as one example) was able to use the moderately religious to carry out his plan. He played on their religious beliefs to get them to do what he wanted them to do.

This is dangerous, being half way in and half way out. And I really admire FH and MM for their commitment to their religion and following so closely that religion. Even if I can't believe what they do.

I worry about the rest of us, the not athiest and yet not religious ones.

Sorry to talk about you all as if you weren't here.

No, it matters very much MM. Even if God will still love and accept us we must care for one another and help one another in this life. To me that was Jesus's message. We must love one another as God loves us. That is our only hope of salvation.

That's okay Weaver. I understand what you are saying!!

There is a point there, though! I used to run political campaigns and one of the strategies was to make sure we got out our folks (the deeply committed to the campaign) and to make sure we didnt upset the "moderates." If you do that, you usually win!!

It is something to think about!

Also, just for clarification...I really dont do religion. I actually find religion to be a waste of time for me, if you want the truth!!

I hold fast to the Word because of the relationship I have with Jesus. I know Him. I talk with Him everyday...and He with me.

That is why I am so fixated on Him and what He says. It is personal. It is a relationship.

Religion is something entirely different!

I say "it doesnt matter" in context with what you said about God and us all making it there. Of course, I believe it matters!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But in thinking that God allows many paths to Him, then it really doesnt matter if we believe Christ died on the Cross for our sins...because there is another way. And it doesnt matter if we dont believe in God at all, because there is another way. So, if there is another way...then if I dont do those things you listed above...it still will not matter. Because God will still let me in!

Of course, I dont believe that! I believe it all matters. I believe that Christ died for a reason and He meant what He said. I believe that many will get to Heaven and cry out "Lord, Lord..." and He will say "I never knew you."

Also, Weaver...you said loving one another is our hope of salvation. But where does God say that? Where does He say we can save ourselves?

In the Bible, He says the exact opposite. He says we are incapable of saving ourselves. So, He sent Someone that could!

That is love!!