I think Jesus was pretty convinced there was no alternative available.

I'm pretty sure if there had been he would have opted out.

It is recorded that he prayed so hard and struggled so much over the decision that he sweated blood.

Seriously.

I do not think it very plausable for a "christian" to claim that there is more than one path to salvation.

Other religions believe this but not Christianity.

Weaver,

You said that loving each other is our only hope of salvation.

What does that even *mean*?

It has that sort of new age platitude taste to it.

Sounds nice and comforting...seems to point you n a direction of civil order...but what does it actually MEAN in regard to sin/humanity et all?

If sin separates us from God and we can't just stop sinning...what saves us exactly?

Were we never really in peril at all and it was all a big joke or a lie? If so jesus must have a serious bone to pick over that whole nailed to the cross bs.

What defines that "love"?

I get a little confused by the "love" crowd I admit because God absolutely TERRIFIES me to the core of my existence and I don't understand the lack of fear.

I am so afraid of God that I really can't love him...yet.

I'd like to..but I'm not there yet.

It doesn't say that in the bible? Well I must have got it from either ACIM or Jesus himself. I too had a personal relationship with Jesus. My earliest memories are of Jesus and my love of God.

I don't know if I told you this before but I used to get sent to the corner to stand with my face facing the corner and my hands behind my back. Well my horror was not in standing in the corner or getting in trouble, but of having my hands behind my back. I thought I couldn't pray or talk to God without my hands in front of me. I was five years old.

I do like religion though, or I used to. I loved the rituals, the fellowship, the singing... the practice itself as I think Graycloud called it.

I'm glad this is staying so respectful, too, aside from the attack on Frog earlier that is. I hope it continues along that path, as it would be so nice for people to be able to share their own beliefs and maybe learn something, without fear of attack, or being called stupid. I won't hold my breath though, as we all know what usually happens with these threads.

You are correct!


These are GREAT questions!

I pray that you do not fear Him in this way, though. We are told we must fear Him...but it is a fear like we feared our fathers. Where we reverence Him and His position. Where we are mindful that it is He who is in charge.

But we need not fear being harmed by Him! He is a God of love...He only wants what is the best for us. Once you trust in that, then life takes on new meaning and God no longer is some ominpotent being somewhere up there.

But, IF the Bible is the word of God...then what you are saying cannot be true. Which means it isnt Jesus that told you these things. Jesus NEVER contradicts Himself! Nor Scripture. If the Bible isnt true...then it doesnt really matter!

Religion is fine. I have had some of my best memories as a kid in church, etc. But religion has no power to save, no power to get anyone to Heaven. All of those rituals, in the end...when life ends...mean nothing really. What matters is the relationship with God. If that isnt right, it wont matter how many choir groups I sang with!

I hope this also!

Oh I absolutely do MM.

I do have awe and reverence sure...but also a terrible fear because he is the definition of might making right.

Things are right or wrong based on his say so and all other definitions are irrelevent.

His "love" might mean some real pain/hardship/loss for me and sure...that is rooted in that whole "all knowing all powerfull" category but since it probably won't be revealed to me or given to me as a choice in any case...you bet he terrifies me.

His love isn't necessarily gentle or soft.

Quite the opposite really.

I think that...having not ever had a father figure to trust really probably corrupts my ability to see God as such. Comparing God with my father adds to the terror rather than creating comfort.

I'm sure that isn't by accident incidentally. Seems like a good sabotage effort to me.

You may be right about that. But I do know that if you sit long enough with Him, you will see His softer side.

I know what yo uare saying about the pain sometimes. An analogy a pastor once told me is like a fireman, that rushes into your house, pulls you out of a restful sleep, grabs you roughly, throws you over his back, bounces you roguhly as he runs down the stairs and takes you out into the cold dark night.

To us, if we didnt know better, we would say this guy is cruel. But, knowing that he just saved is from burning up inside...well, then the little bumps and bruises dont quite have the same meaning, do they?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well maybe it is new age, if so what is wrong with that? Old age thinking has gotten us where?

It is our separation that causes us to sin in the first place, and keeps us separated.

If we got our humungous (is that a word) egos out of the way, if we saw the world as Jesus did, with no ego, only with goodwill for our fellow man...well there wouldn't be any problems. ACIM says that Jesus was able to talk to God, to be one with God still because he never developed an ego big enough to keep him separate.

You would be incapable of harming your children, Noodle. Why? Do you think it is ethics or love?

If we were created in God's image, then why would we be born of a sinful nature? Children aren't sinful, because they have no ego's yet. Our nature is good, it is of God...and then we become of this world, we get an ego. That is our separation from God.

I know this is new age, I know it is not of the bible...but I don't follow the bible anymore.

It makes about as much sense to me as it does to you Noodle, but I was raised to believe that God is love, not the fearful monster of the bible.

And I know what I am saying is about as different as night and day as what FH and MM are saying if you look at it in a literal sense.

Try looking at it from a symbolic or metphorical sense. Replace evil with ego, and absense of God as darkness. That is the only thing that helps me.

They say it is a knowing that is born of experience, which results from faith.

I no longer have that knowing, although I am pretty sure I once did.

And I am no longer Christian... in all good consciense I cannot call myself that any longer.


Didn't God say in the bible "I am in you" MM? If that is true, we are so connected that only the love and care of each other would save us. As what we do to another we do to ourselves.

This is the love I speak of.

Oh brother...I sound like a nut.

Well..yes and no MM.

We do see plenty of examples in which God DIDN'T intervene and his roughness was more about just LETTING you burn because he had no particular reason not to.

He isn't always running you down the stairs roughshod...it's not always or even MOSTLY about that.


Usually if he DOES intervene it's because you still have a part to play that you haven't done yet which is more protective of HIS grande scheme than YOUR pain or loss.

I think there is probably a larger picture involved...maybe after you are done burning to death it all becomes clear [shrugs].

God claims to be good...we just forget that he also has the power to define it. What looks/feels/seems good to me isn't necessarily how he will judge it and vice versa.

Weaver...

I am *completely* capable of harming my children.

And I have no intention of attacking your beliefs...you say right of the cuff that they aren't biblical and you aren't a christian.

Fair enough.

I only object to something completely pagan being dressed in christain lingo and passed off as such.

Nah. Look at a child, an infant. There was once a study on crime done in Minnesota I think. And they wrote a great report. One of the things they described was the murderous ways of an infant. If an infant could stand up and walk and talk, they would kill for food, a new diaper, rest, etc. There is nothing "pure" about a child, no matter how much we want to believe that.

Adam, our fore father, screwed up. The penalty of that screw up was that his children and those thereafter would also be stuck "outside the Garden."

And then God came, in His love, and gave Adam and his progeny, a way out of the predicament they created!

You see, your theory doesnt work! You say if only we didnt come into the world and get an ego and commit sin. So, by your premise, we are all capable, under the right conditions, to be sinless. But I guarantee that if you raised a kid on an island, away from the rest of civilization...and you taught and showed only love...that they would still sin!! How is that possible? Because that nature is a part of them, from the moment they were conceived!

Okay. At least you have admitted that. But as I said above, if the Bible is true, then you would not be in a good situation with this belief.

The God of the Bible is NOT a fearful monster!! The whole book speaks to His love.

But I am not trying to make up my own view here. The Bible is in black and white, and if true...was written under the penmanship of God. If it is not, then it is nothing but a book of lies. And the most evil book ever written...as well as Jesus being one of the most evil men ever to live.

But it also presupposes that we know better! So we havent subplanted ego...we have used ego to set up our own view of what God wants and what is right. So instead of less ego...this view makes it super ego!

Who is "they?" Probably some dead people (or people that will be dead one day). Instead, I am trying to help others see that there is a live person (Jesus) that says differently.

Makes sense.

That is true. Sadly. Because Jesus desires to know you and you to know Him, Weaver. And those that are Christians desire for you to be in Heaven in the end. You can choose this road. But as the Bible says, it is the wide road...the one well travelled. The one that leads to destruction. Unfortunately. And I say that with great sadness!


One passage does not truth make. Him being in me has nothingto do with my salvation. God is in the believer, not the unbeliever (as the rest of Scripture states). Salvation is as God says it is...not what we say it is. You have every right to say that the Bible is not the Word of God...and Jesus isnt who He said He was. Jesus gives you that right! But, jsut because you have theat right, doesnt mean He has to be held to your views. His laws, His commands, still stand. No matter what we want to believe. Truth is truth. Whetehr we believe it or not.

Nah. But I, and others, are concerned Weaver. Because we do know where your path leads. I know you dont want to hear that. I pray that the Lord does WHATEVER it takes to reach you and help you find the right path...the narrow path. The one Jesus is on.

All other ways do not end well!

Definitions of pagan on the Web:

heathen: a person who does not acknowledge your god
a person who follows a polytheistic or pre-Christian religion (not a Christian or Muslim or Jew)
heathen: not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam
hedonist: someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

a practitioner of an Earth Religion; from the Latin paganus, a country dweller.
www.conjure.com/COG/idef.html

In Corinth, non-Jews were called Gentiles or pagans. The Latin word indicated a "country dweller," or someone outside the culture of the city.

Well it took me a long time to realize I was not Christian...after 40 years of thinking I was, and belonging to a Christian church my entire life. But I am okay with that, now.

Where? I have read thru the Bible. Where does that happen??

More truth in this than you know, Noodle! I trust that God does not keep me here one millisecond past what my part is in the "grand scheme of things." I know that I am still here, and have to suffer life's ups and downs, because I have a purpose designed by God. The day I have fulfilled that purpose, is the day I leave this life! Thank God! He would be cruel if He left me here with no purpose.

He isnt remotely like that, Noodle.

But you are human. He is perfect. So, obviously if our view is different than His, then guess who is wrong???

Much of the bad things on this planet are done by man and by Satan. Why is that His fault? Why put that on Him? He didnt do it.

Oh sure, some would say that He has the power to stop it. Okay, sure He does...in a way.

But He limited His power when He gave us freewill. Since He is a God of love, and He is just and holy, He cannot go back on His word. Which means, even though He knows that, for example, the path you are on leads to He!!, He CANNOT stop you if you are intent on doing so. It isnt He wont...He CANNOT. And yes, there are things God cannot do!! He cannot sin. He cannot lie. He cannot go back on His word.

As a result of growing up in a pagan heavy family I am actually MORE educated/knowledgable in that area than Christianity which is relatively new [within the last decade].

I know pagan doctrine when I see it.

No insult intended.

That me MM, not weaver you are quoting.

I'll bbl with some examples.

You wont later. Unfortunately.

Oopppss. Sorry!

If this is true... how about the reverse... how is that Adam and Eve sinned if it was not in their nature to do so? A perfect God created them.... obviously it was not intended that they have a nature toward sinning.

One other question MM... why is that you feel that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons? Why are we all not given that perfect nature rather than starting behind the eight ball in terms of sin. According to you... we are born in sin...why I have no idea(other than God chooses to have it that way)... honestly, this does not fit with my concept of Christ....and perhaps it is because I do not believe that we should be judged for the sins of our fathers.

And you mentioned David earlier and how my view of this man is not keeping with God's.... you are right. David, IMHO, is one of the worst of the worst in terms of religious based history. I am not well versed on the Koran.... but I can tell you that I have heard that there are a lot of references to barabric ways in that book. I find it hard to believe that many of them would rival someone like David. The man had his strenghths...but anything resembling morality or a heart towards his fellow man was not one of them!

MEDC

No offense taken Noodle. I had to look up pagan to see what it meant.

I have one question for the other Christians reading this thread:

Do all Christian faiths define the term Christian the way fundamentalists do? Only through Jesus Christ, as our lord and savior, will we find God and everlasting life?

I learned something interesting a while back about ancient Egyptian cul2re and religion: The Egyptians "invented" monotheism something like 3500 years ago. Later Pharaohs went back to polytheistic belief systems, though.

-ol' 2long

Lol..

Weaver. I'm pretty sure they do.

If there was an alternate route to God then that whole nailed to the cross thing was a dirty trick!