Pepperband,

I don't tell her those things. I no longer tell her anything. What am I going to do? Nothing. Should I do a search and count the number of times you have posted that you cannot change another person? It might takes days. What I am going to do is try to find a way to look at it that allows me to tolerate it.

CS,

When was your Dday? 3-4 months ago? I ask this because I used to talk like you about a year ago. Sorry but have you heard of the BS fog?

Pepperband,

I might have missed what you are saying. Are you saying that is what I am currently doing or what I should be doing? I read it the first way.

Hi Piojitos,

Yes. Yes, heard about the BS fog, it's denial of the A going on or the extent of it. I know the A went on and could still go on, or could happen with anyone else. That's up to the WS. My job at this point is to putting across my best efforts to avoid anger and making demands, show love and affection, help her recover her feelings towards the marriage and when possible trust her, but not too much. I've told her how much it hurt and to please not hurt me again. I tell her each time the A discussion comes up. I try to keep that discussion to a minimum. She knows I love her and care about her and she's shown remorse over what happened.

She's been very jealous in the past with regards to me, and I've pointed out that if it happens any more, I might fall out of love with her and "who knows what would happen then?". More than likely nothing would happen right away because I'm not interested in that happening, but it's playing with fire and she knows it. Recently she's become concerned about 3 different women and won't stop asking about them. I've told her there's nothing to be concerned about, but she's now concerned. Does that mean the A is over? Does remorse mean the A is over? Does her saying the A is over and done with and has been for several weeks? There's no way to know, only she knows. If she wants to be my W, I'm here for her. If not, I'm sure I can find someone else, it's not all that difficult. But I'd rather have my W and she knows that. It's really up to her how it will go. I try to be frank and honest about all of this with her, I feel that's the best way to deal with my W, or my WS. She needs to see honest discussion has value and dishonesty won't get her anywhere in the M, so she can feel safe to do the same.

People show remorse for three reasons: 1. they think they've hurt you and don't want you hurting anymore because they love you, or 2. they think you can hurt them, and they don't want you hurting them, or 3. they know what they did was morally wrong and repent to God. In my case, I've made it clear that she's hurt me in what she did and to please not hurt me any further, it's very painful to me. I've also made it known that if my love for her runs out, I could end up doing the same thing, and she's very jealous, so I don't expect she wants to go down that path any time soon. You never know, until the WS goes down that path.

Mistakes happen, fog happens, I'm willing to forgive. She's said she's sorry about 3 times now after she said the A was over. Until then, she showed no remorse at all. I believe she is sorry and regrets it. I don't believe that she can guarantee not having an A in the future, no one can. If the A continues or another shows up, it will be painful, and I'll either move to plan B, or plan D depending on how I feel about it at the time.

God bless,
CS

No BS is not denail about the A. BS fog is where you tend to view WS as being right. You blame yourself for the A. You think WS had motivation for the A. You perceive OM as infinitely better than you. The BS fog is what happens to you somewhere around the second stage of grief.

Yes you do need to be in Plan A. I hear a lot of fog talk in your posts (BS fog). But you and I are not in the same position.

Jealousy? I have heard that some waywards do fear that the BS will have an A and it can become a paranoid mania. I wouldn't say that means anything in particular with regard to the state of your WW's A. I think she is just being herself.

You are fairly fresh into this. Wait a year or two with no significant progress toward recovery. Wait until the A is ancient history in WW's mind and in yours. Then you will begin to understand where I am at.

The point is that not everyone falls in line with the MB plan. It is still a great plan but it can never guarantee success. When you get to the point where I am at (and I suspect Tatertot as well), you begin to kick yourself for not having gotten a divorce when the time was ripe (i.e. Dday). Your love bank is completely drained and WW isn't interested in making deposits.

Different subject and unrelated to your post but back to the point of the thread.

I was thinking last night after watching Dr. Phil's House. The WW said what, for her, were some very profound things for being 10 minutes after her confession. They showed a complete understanding of the plight of the BS. I therefore got the impression she had been coached by Dr. Phil to say what she said.

The A destroys the self-esteem of the BS. Having the one you love and trust the most choose someone else over you is devastating. The BS himself views the OP with almost god-like qualities. The OP is larger than life to both the WS and the BS. I was finally able to slay that dragon (as posted on my thread). Unfortunately when I saw OM for what he really was, I lost all respect for my WW. You see, while I still viewed OM as better than me, I respected my WW's decision to choose him over me. Now I see how stupid and immature she was. Even so, the pain remains.

What I would really hope that a FWW would do is to reassure the BH that she recognizes that, for whatver reason, she made a mistake and that OM is nothing compared to the BH. FWW is thankful BH stood beside her and supported her and that he is the love of her life. That would go a long way toward healing the BH. That is my ideal case.

Now for FWW to do that, she has to swallow all her pride, take a huge hit on her own self-esteem and admit a huge mistake. What is more important to her? Her marriage or her ego?

Some people simply can't ever admit they were wrong. That is a big obstacle.

I no longer expect my WW to say anything. I look at Pepperband's suggestions and I lose count of the LB's. I won't do that because I am now in an extremely dark Plan A.

I saw this last night. All I can say is that I have had a couple (maybe four) of experiences in the last three months that have gotten me demanding a divorce. One was over a teddy bear. We went to Bahrain for the weekend to get away from here and have some beer. WW also had her hair done. That takes about three hours and is a significant loss of "together" time but I stayed with the DDs at the pool at the hotel while she went to another hotel to get her hair done. When it was time to leave, I had to pack everything and we went to pick up WW at the other hotel. I put DD2's little teddy bear (yellow rat with no more whiskers) in the ice chest so it would be well protected. DD2 asked where it was. I told her it was in my backpack so she wouldn't go looking for it (she gets it out - she'll lose it). So all is well and we get home. That night DD2 is going to bed nad has no rat-bear. WW asks if I packed it. I said absolutely. I tell her it was in the ice chest. WW says DD2 told her it was in my backpack. I explain why I said that. I go look for the ice chest because we had not bothered to unpack when we got home. Ice chest was empty. Turns out Amazon woman had unpacked it without being asked. Unfortunately Amazon woman applies no logic when putting things up. Amazon woman also just happens to have gone out with her friends. WW is frantic. In her panic she is accusing me of having left rat-bear in Bahrain. How could I be so stupid, etc? I came unglued.

I had done the entire weekend just so WW could get her hair done. WW abandoned DDs and I to get her hair done. I was left having to do everything to take care of the kids, get us packed, etc. so we could go home. I took very special care of that bear. I knew all these things. WW never even gave me the benefit of the doubt. After about 30 minutes she found the rat-bear. AW hadput it in the laundry over the dryer.

It never occurred to WW that she might owe me an apology. What I saw was a crystal clear view of a woman who has zero respect for me, will always blame me for anything without giving it a second thought and never give me the benefit of the doubt. Next day I demanded a divorce - not for the argument but for my WW's attitude. A nearly identical incident happened a week later when she could not find a present we had bought in Bahrain for a friend of DD1's birthday. Again I got pretty angry. Again I found the present. Again AW had put it in some place it should never have been. Again I wanted a divorce.

It isn't the fight that triggers the desire for divorce - it is the attitude that WW usually hides but cannot conceal in a time of crisis.

Last week a got a call from DD1 at 6:45AM. She was in tears. WW had gone out running and had not come back. DD1 didn't know what to wear for school. Didn't know what to take for snack. Didn't have anyone to fix her hair and was worried about mommy. I didn't know WW was going our running in the mornings. She hasn't told me that. When she does run, she runs the jebels which take just under 30 minutes. She had been gone for an hour. later WW explains that she had run 7 miles instead of 3. She says she did this because I had advised her that only doing 20 minutes of aerobic exercise was not that efficient at burning fat. So somehow it all became my fault again. Anyway, we had a huge fight.

Then I posted to tatertot's thread and things have calmed down. It has been during these critical times that I have seen glimpses of who WW really is at the moment. She is not the nice person she wants to appear to be. She is very quick to blame me for anything and everything. She still feels entitled. If it weren't for the DDs, I'd divorce her in a heartbeat and I still love her. Doesn't matter - I'd still feel happier without her.

Hi Piajitos,

You might be reading too much into what I've said. If BS fog covers all those, then no, I don't have BS fog. For example, one by one:

I don't view the WS as being right in having the A.

I do not blame myself for the A, though I do admit prior to the A, due to work, I was neglecting her some when the OM was paying attention to her. But she chose the A and the A is no solution to anything. She accepts blame for what she chose, I was not involved in that decision she made with the OM.

As far as neglect and ENs, neglect is a big EN issue. At the time my priorities should have been more towards her than work, Dr. Harley points this out, so yes, the WS did have some motivation to do what she did, even though the A was wrong and wasn't a good solution to anything.

I do not perceive the OM as infinitely better than me, in fact I view him as a jerk. So this one doesn't match me either.

So no, I do not agree that I'm writing in a BS fog manner.

I am wondering why you're not hearing remorse from the WS though. I could only think of 3 reasons why someone would have remorse. If there is no remorse, then I wonder why none of those 3 reasons fit. For example:

Does she love you and know you were hurt by the A?

Does she fear you might hurt her through an A of your own?

Has she repented to God over it being morally wrong? If so, does she feel any need to tell you about it?

And a 4th potential reason, does she feel safe enough to discuss remorse with you?

If none of those happen, I don't know how remorse could occur unless it was something taught, like an instant reply about remorse over doing something wrong. Maybe that's a 5th reason for remorse?

I don't know how you saw the OM as having "god like qualities" because in my situation, from what the WS told me, he sounded like a classic jerk. In my view, anyone breaking up a marriage with kids and knowing it at the time, is a jerk of the lowest caliber.

Not sure what you mean by a dark plan A. For me, it's all about loving my W during plan A and doing what's necessary for her to feel safe, loved, forgiven if she ends it, understand what she did and how wrong it was, and what could happen if she continues with it, to help lift the fog so to speak. The latter one, I've found requires showing her daily, why she married me, and even more so, why she should remain married to me and forsake all others. I'll know if I'm successful or not as time progresses.

I do know that if I don't give her love, caring, safety, forgiveness, drop anger and demands, and help her know what she did is wrong that hurts both me and our marriage, then she'll be very likely to go back to having an A and it'll be a waste of time to try to have a marriage.

I do agree with you that you should work on getting remorse going. Have you had some time to talk intimately about it? When both of you are talking in the most loving manner to each other, bring up the topic and tell her how much it means to you and ask her why she won't tell you that. She is your best source for what she feels. If she's feeling resentment, find out what that's about first, it might be what's holding her back?

God bless,
CS

Okay wait a year or two until your love bank is completely drained. Then continue to try to do those things. Then you will understand what this thread is about.

A marriage is a joint agreement between two people that love each other. If you both love each other, then discussing remorse and resolving the remorse issue, should be a possibility.

CS,

Sorry dude but you simply have no clue what I'm talking about.

Pio - Pep was saying that is what you SHOULD be doing and I would agree. I would not dismiss her advice.

Hi Piojitos,

It looked like you were saying you felt drained, that you wanted her to admit remorse, and then you would have love for her again. If that's the case, I'm not there. I do feel drained sometimes, so I do understand. I often wish the nightmare was over and I could wake up and it hadn't happened.

I still love my W, and still feel that I can forgive and try to save the marriage. I did the plan A things, and have seen progress. She said she was sorry about 6 weeks after the A started, I doubt she would have said it if I'd kept making demands and had been angry about it. I found that telling how it hurt helped her to remember that she loves me and she started feeling some guilt over it. Up until the A, she was very loving, I had no doubt that she loved me, and I loved her. The OM ruined that. It took both me and the W being reminded that each other was worth working on the marriage. She could still have an A, and so could I, so could anyone. Remorse won't stop that.

I don't think you'll get remorse from a WS unless she feels love and knows you're still hurting over it and wanting to know she's remorseful over it (or the other 4 reasons for remorse mentioned previously). Which ever it is, talking to her about it seems like a good solution. Being quite about it won't help progress. She's your W, talk to her. You should be able to talk to her about things that are difficult, she's your W, she can handle it, can't she?

God bless,
CS

Well BigK I definitely misread it the first time. That doubt entered my mind after I had signed off.

Pepperband's plan is logical and more or less what I had attempted about a week or so ago. WW's response was to get angry. I based everything on how I feel. I was not accusing her of anything. I acknowledged that her actions were pretty good but I was missing dialogue to accompany that.

WW beat me up pretty badly. It would be helpful to me if she could say a few nice things. I don't even care if they are lies. She lied before - why can't she now? As I have said, WW now believes that any problems I have are my problems. She feels she has done her part and seems unwilling to do any more.

Now I can continue to beat this dead horse or I can opt for #13 in the list of options which is "rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses".

This is your false assumption. If you would pay attention to Tatertot's thread and this thread, you would see that you are wrong. You are way early on in this process. I hope it all works out for you. Not all WS's respond per the MB plan. Mine has not. Some WS's reach a point where they decide that enough is enough. They have done all they are going to do and nothing more. No amount of Plan A or B will fix that.

Are you saying you can't talk to her about remorse? Has she rejected saying "I'm sorry"? Has she said you deserve it?

During the 6 weeks, my WS told me much the same thing, said it was all my fault and that she didn't care. It took talking to her and telling her I love her, telling her it hurt me, and that I wanted her as my W, dropping all the anger, demands and getting her back to where she could see me as her H, not an enemy.

That could take decades, or weeks. It's the same talk she told me, same uncaring, despising, prideful attitude, do whatever I want talking with no remorse. It takes talking to her as someone that loves her, regardless of how she responds to it.

If you've hung on for a year or two, well, you're pretty strong emotionally, but I'd suggest taking chances, being very open about loving her, and very open about the hurt. What have you got to lose?

God bless,
CS

CS,

Which part of the thread can't you read?

Pio - you KNOW that people affair down and that the OM is no match for you - would you really want her to find Mr Perfect in an affair partner? Om ARE scum and ARE less than BH. Obviously. They have little peckers too.


Well that is my idea of the minimum standard for an apology as well. That is pretty much word for word what I got and still get occasionally.

Pio - WHAT is a Dark Plan A???????

Yes I know that now but shortly after Dday, I didn't feel that way at all. I also know that there is no way a BS can compete toe-to-toe with any OM in the mind of a WW. WW is perfect in their eyes. BS is scum. That feeling is transferred somewhat to the BS initially who has just had his world rocked and doesn't know up from down. As I said, I slew that dragon. PB is a nothing.



And I am willing to bet that it has significantly helped your recovery.



Coming soon to an email inbox near you!

Pio - have you actually communicated this to WW in the same way you communicate it here? Chapter and verse.

If you have and she doesn't understand - file for divorce.

If you haven't - stop expecting her to know this stuff if you don't communicate it.

A Dark Plan D might fix this.

Yes. Chapter and verse. I have told her that her attitude shows she has zero respect for me and that it is impossible to love someone you don't respect.

Her response is always "but I thought we were doing better".

Better than what? I've never persued that.

She doesn't want a divorce.

Hi Piojitos,

I went back and re-read all your statements, but I didn't see where you told her you felt hurt by the A. That is a big issue because if she doesn't understand that you're hurting, she won't want to ease your pain. It will be like a rank, one upmanship type stuff. Because if you don't feel pain, but are concerned, then she can negotiate with what you're wanting, and ignore what you're hurting over.

Anyway, I'm sorry, but I have to be honest with my W, even when she's a WS, I have to tell her that I'm hurting over it, that is part of my being "in love". I have to assume that her being my W, that she'll care about what I feel, like I'll care about her, and that she'll want to not have me hurting over something, whatever it is. She's a human being, and so am I, as are we all.

Talk to her Piojitos, talk to her in a loving manner. There have been times when my W has acted the same way, and times when believe it or not, I've acted in an uncaring manner too, we all have. Offer her love, regardless of what she give back. Think of it as a job if you have to, but the payoff is her being your W again. It is worth the effort. And do not be afraid to say you've been hurt by it and want the hurting to stop. You have nothing to lose in saying that, I know, because once my WS knew that, she didn't want to have me hurt much longer and said "I'm sorry".

God bless,
CS