Cliff - what you are not getting is that Pio has been working this for 12 freakin months. TWELVE MONTHS.

That is wearing him down and after 3 months you are a light year away from understanding that.

Recovery would have been impossible without it.

Actually - Pio - It's much longer than 12 months isn't it?

We are at 16 months of NC and counting. Almost 24 since Dday.

Well Pio then you have to decide if you can live like this. She doesn't get to choose - you do.

She must know YOU aren't doing better. So by WE she means SHE.

I think Pep's suggestions have merit. Try parroting them to her every day for 2 weeks. You never know - maybe she will get it.

That is what I thought.

It's a way different dynamic Cliff.

You should have seen Pio when he first came to MB.

2long,

What is an "unconven2onal" marriage? Or is that "nonconven2onal"? Or does she view it in terms of weapons? (where the opposite of "conven2onal" is NBC).

Oddly enough I am planning 2 be in the USA in August. I'm not sure I'll get much further north than 2lsa and I will probably spend a lot of time in Houston.

I am a bit concerned and I may ac2ally spend all my time in federal prison. The IRS has decided that I am ac2ally resident in the USA and now owe them $60,000 in taxes and penalties. I refuse 2 pay. I spent 19 days in the USA in 2004 and 9 days there in 2005. I'm unclear as 2 what the requirement is for non-residency. For their part, they are not being too flexible - at least not since I called the investigating agent a pencil-pushing "bureauprat". 20-20 hindsight. [sigh...]

In a word, polygamy. My W doesn't use that word, but that's what it is. She doesn't use that word (these days), because it's not comfy (it's disgusting). She'd say that, in her view, it's okay 2 have romantic interests outside the M, or that it's okay 2 work with RM, who she had a 12-yr LTA with.


Okay. I get 2 Houston once a year or so, but in March.


Definitely get with a lawyer before you come here. I got audited for something silly about 15 years ago, and it tied us up financially making payments for about 3 years before I could pay it off - we were making so little at the time. I don't take chances with the IRS. This country may be a democracy, but there are dues. ...boy, if my Model A club was as strict as the IRS about getting their dues punc2ally every year, I'd be hosed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Polygamy? She should live over here...no...wait...that's only the men. Not really fair is it?

Oddly enough in a country where polygamy is encouraged, the new generations are opting for monogamy and 2-3 kids max. It has nothing to do with religion. It is purely economic.

The IRS made their decision on no apparent basis. They sent me a letter saying if I did not respond within 30 days that they were right by default. It takes 3-5 weeks for mail to get here from the USA. They said my only recourse then would be to go to federal court.

I responded by saying that the US INS has a complete and concise record of every minute I've spent in the USA for the past 15 years. Why can't they communicate? Deaf ears. Logic should never be attempted to be applied to the government. I fully expect to be remanded into federal custody when I arrive in Houston.

For about $5000 I can buy a passport from an inocuous country, burn my blue one and never pay taxes again. And I haven't done that yet because????

Yes...I'm an idiot.

Pio:

Are your wife's issues based in either her culture or FOO?

If so, is it possible for her to change her sense of entitlement without significant time and effort spent in counseling?

and do I remember correctly that she has sumarily dismissed the idea of counseling?? (or am I confusing her with another WS?)

This is a depressing thread. It’s gone from unremorseful WW to IRS Audit. Don't know which is worse. Must suck to be you.

I can tell you are frustrated, Pio. Duh.

You keep pushing back on good advice. This won’t work because of that. That won’t work because of this.

I could ask you what you want, but I think you don’t really know. I mean, not in the context of where you find yourself. You know what you want in the big picture. But, you can’t have that any more, you know. None of us BH can.

Pio, wanting remorse is a symptom, not the cause, of your frustration.

I tell you with certainty, remorse is highly overrated. FWW in my case did express remorse. Genuine, true, tears running down her face, on her knees remorse. After each and every D-Day of the 10 year VLTA!

Made a lot of difference, huh.

2long mentioned loving detachment, almost in passing. If you are settling for item 13 (was it 13?) in your list of options then you need loving detachment. You need to concentrate on yourself.

And BTW, OM in my case was measurably better than me. In bed, in career, in bank account, in looks, in toys. You name it, he was better than me in the eye of FWW. FWW was not affairing down. Well, except in morals and ethics - they were a matched set. But that was then. This is now.

Now I like me just fine. As you posted earlier, you like yourself. That’s a very good place to start.

I assure you, I felt just as you. Even at 3.5 years since most recent D-Day of the VLTA I sometimes still do. I stayed because of DS. But I also built a new a life. The life I sacrificed when I M’d FWW. And a funny thing happened. FWW respects me more now than she has since I can remember.

ILFFWBINILWH too. But love is verb and a rather active verb too. Try to stop dwelling, obsessing even, on the remorse red herring and make the life you want for you and your family. It will make the necessary difference in time. A difference in your outlook.

This is an emotional phase you are going through. It’s cloaked in reason, but it’s at root an emotional response to your wife not being who you thought she was. Who she will never be. It happened to me between one and two tears after the last D-Day. It passes.

Concentrate on you.

And the IRS.


With prayers,

ed: I thought I might try some speeling and punctuations.

edd: But not syntax.

Oh, also meant to include a note about IC. You know what the typical IC is going to tell you to do, don't you? Going to tell you to D.

After many an expensive session.

with prayers,

I think this is the conclusion I am getting to. I am trying to let WW simply be WW. I am also trying to get along with that person. I don't think I'm trying to avoid good advice. I honestly believe I have tried that good advice to no avail.

I am trying to love and honor WW as is her right. I am trying now to build my happiness around me and DDs. WW's happiness is her problem. We will be spending 5-6 weeks apart this summer and I am looking forward to it. As I have said before, my deal is not that bad. I miss being in love with WW. Oh well. I doubt that will ever come back now. But it isn't necessary either. Now that I am in my super dark Plan A, we are getting along fine. I wonder how long I can keep this up.

BTW when I have one of the most depressing threads on an already depressing web site - is that good or bad?

That's good, Pio.

Anyway, I don't think Gemela is ever going to express remorse. Her OM was so far below you in every way, that it would just be too hurtful for her. I don't think she has the strength to do it. He was only a fantasy, and I doubt that she will ever admit it.

However, I think the two of you can stay married and have a good marriage, if you are able to move on without an apology.

As for all the things she blames on you, that is just because she has come to rely on you so much. Don't take it personally. And ask her to check back in once in awhile.

Actually I totally agree. I never wanted an apology. She could have had remorse without ever having had apologized to me. It was never about that. It was me hoping she would recognize that her A was wrong - that it was against her entire belief system. Now I have to relearn who she is.

I made this thread just in case their might be other BS's who are/were stuck where I am/was. Tatertot started this. I can't imagine living like this for 3 or 4 more years.

What I am doing is changing my view on marriage and what it means. I am working to find the right lens through which to see all this so that I can see it clearly and enjoy the view. Gemela and I aren't changing. I was waiting for her to change. Now I have decided to change instead. I feel like I am groping around in the obscurity a little. I don't have a clear path and there is a fair amount of trial and error. The cornerstone of this building is the sure and certain knowledge that gemela is on zero tolerance. One more PA/EA offense and we part. That is the only way I can respect myself.

In one respect PB did have an advantage. He was younger than me. He had his whole lack of a future in front of him still. Sometimes I picture gemela living with him in a one-bedroom council flat or, worse yet, with his parents. Makes me laugh. Please allow me these brief but thoroughly satisfying moments.

Some things have definitely changed. I no longer hold anger in for days. I no longer have a fight and stay angry for days afterward. If I do have a fight, it is short, to the point, and over. Bygones. I also don't apologize much any more unless I think I was wrong. If I have to learn to live with the new gemela, she has to reciprocate. She doesn't like it? She knows where the door is. She's been through it a couple of times before.

I can't see gemela ever posting here again. It would be inconsistent with her current attitude. That is a shame because I think she and Myrta might have had a lot in common.

"In one respect PB did have an advantage. He was younger than me. He had his whole lack of a future in front of him still"

That is true - no prospects, no looks, no brains, nothing to offer, disease-ridden..... Need I go on?

Gemela had a fantasy. That was it. There was no future, it was all in her head.

Gotta love Myrta. I saw her posting here today. She was a typical WW when she came here. Gonna leave her doctor husband of 25 years for the troll. But boy has she changed.

I do think that Gemela knows her A was wrong and regrets it. I don't think she will ever admit it to you.

Blessings.

So I just need to learn to live with that. Working on it.

You know? Finding her secret stash of love letters and photos last year was a double-edged sword. That incident, above all else, has been the turning point of this whole mess.

Side one:
1) I saw PB for the loser he really was. I saw what a poor choice he was.
2) I regained my self-esteem in an instant.

Side two:
1) I saw gemela for the loser she really was.
2) I lost all respect for her.

'I never wanted an apology.'

I truely believe to settle for an apology as true remorse is quite superficial. How can somebody accept a simple 'sorry' as means of repentance? Remorse is required for recovery, but a simple sorry seems to me, well, a bit immature. I believe, that remorse, regret, from a Ws comes not from what is spoken, but what is shown through actions and accountability.

A little bit of a primitive perspective, I know. I've been on both sides of the fence. If I thought a simple 'Sorry' would heal my spouse....well, I have no business pretending to be an adult. My actions, or lack thereof attest to my remorse.

I am sorry so opinionated.

Following this thread with much interest!

With Love,

Dara

I haven't really been looking for an apology exactly. I will confess that I have had a recurring daydream where WW comes to me, opens herself up in humility, confesses all, begs forgiveness and swears undying love forever and I release all my pain in a flood of tears, we hug and kiss and live happily ever after.

rrrighttt......

Okay I'm awake now.

Apology. Oh yes.

No Apology was never really the indicator for me. To be honest, I never really had a vision of what that indicator would be. I always had this view that there would be a noticeable step-change. Obvious signs. I always believed that somehow I would see something different. I would know, from whatever idicator, that WW was truly remorseful.

If she is, the transition has been so smooth that I didn't pick it up. I can't say whether she is or not. We never discuss it. If we did, I wouldn't know whether she were telling the truth or not. So why bother? Right. Don't bother.

So what I need to do is change the way I view things. Focusing on me? I am doing that. I am working out literally day and night now. My activities center around DDs and me. I also have activities with WW but once I hit the 15 hour target, I don't try to push the envelope.

The simple answer to infidelity is divorce. Failure to do that means you need to change your view. I did change my view. Now I find I need to change it some more. I am searching for that balance. I have not yet found it but think I am getting closer rather than farther.

I also know that if WW walks out the door tonight, my life will be just fine. I'm not encouraging her to go. She has just forced me to consider that contingency. That is a difficult point to achieve for a new BS who will do anything to save his marriage. Now I still want to save the M but recognize it is not entirely in my hands. What I need to do is not intentionally jeapordize it. I am changing, growing, evolving. The anchor is the DDs. Whatever I do has to revolve around them. That's why I could so easily divorce WW for a new affair - I wouldn't want my DDs raised by that kind of a woman.

I never posted about the decision tree and I am reluctant to do so. (No amount of pleading will make me do it BTW) But I have a process. All I have done is change the benchmark and my process remains completely intact. My new benchmark is "what is best for the DDs?".