I'd like to say a few more things on the matter.

I also note in PS's post that he uses the term sacrifice very broadly...sometimes he uses sacrifice where I might have said discipline.

For example...there may be something that I recognise is a good choice. Intellectually I want to make that choice. However it is difficult and not so gratifying.

I must discipline myself to do it.

This is NOT sacrifice that leads to resentment but rather self discipline and self accountability.

A good thing.

If I want to have clean dishes to eat off of I have to wash the dishes whether I like it or not. That is a decision that I make...not one that someone else demands of me.

If I want my spouse to feel loved, cherished, and apprecicated I have to behave in a way that communicates this to them even if I don't enjoy the tasks involved.

Again that makes it my choice to give rather than their selfish demand.

Also the "sacrifice" that I have made is a complete transaction because I got what I paid for so to speak. I wanted to behave in a certain way for a certain purpose and that was achieved.

This requires a lot of honesty with OURSELVES about what *really* motivates us to do what we do and why we feel and react the way we do as well.

So the equation works in reverse as well and we can use these feelings as indicators.

Let me show you how.

Say I feel resentfull...I identify what I am feeling as resentment.

Since I know how a person becomes resentfull I can work backward and examine myself.

Have I been laying traps and calling them gifts?

Have I assigned myself the role of "martyr" in my personal script?

Am I now angry because the other person isn't reading their lines right?

There is a strong probability that this is so.

Now I have the opportunity to correct my attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors so that I do not fall into entitled/sinfull frame of mind which can warp and corrupt my perceptions.

I practive sacrificial giving....in my marriage...

the sacrifice is offered to God....the return is Grace, humilty...humbleness....

A sacrifice is done for a purpose. Often that purpose is to secure our OWN entitlements whether the spouse wants to agree to them or not.

my sacrificial giving is done to remind me how blessed I am...

to see the positive rather than the negative...

that's my payout....

I "do" because in the end...it's really not a big deal to do...

I have choices in all my actions...

I shift the payout....

not to come from my spouse...but to come from God...and from myself.....

see how much I can accomplish
see how much I can DO...
see how it trickles in to a more harminious family

the blessings come that I have a spouse that acknowledges and thanks me for what I do...

the blessing is that I have a life in livable and in tolerable order...even in the mix of all those things people claim make it so difficult

young children..
part time work
and now the real make you wanna scream..
baseball for the boy and softball for the girl season...
all the normal stuff that is supposed to make me entitled to something...


Being honest about what you can GIVE...really GIVE without becoming angry or resentfull and learning to ask rather than demand is a big part of what POJA is all about.

here's the rub though...

society on many many many levels makes giving and doing a negative thing...

how many female WS come here and lament all they did...

alllllllll the cooking
allllllll the cleaning
allllllll the child-rearing

blah blah.....

and now entitlement rules their world..

how many male WS..

I did alllllllll the hard work to earn money
I was fooorrrcceed to marry
blah blah blah....

on and on it goes...

both sides...

how about the female BS...

same story for years I took care of everything and everyone....and he's off having an affair....

society is geared to if it feels good do it...

there is no honoring and valueing of the hard hard work it takes to run a home...

pop-psyche
femi-nazism...
demascualtion of men
the stripped roles of men as FATHERS

on and on and on
bombardment that devalues marriage....and spouses...

a lot of entitlement doesn't really come from people giving...

a lot come because round the water cooler the soup dujour is put your spouse down...

speak ill of men husbands
speak ill of women....
wives...


marriage is hard...but people need to look really really hard at where they live...
how they lived...

how blessed to be in a certain part of the world we are...
blessed to have computers...
blessed to have enough food

on and on and on the blessing flow for some...

there but the Grace of God go I...to be where I am....

yet we still ****** and moan....over minutia at times....

donning our victim hats and mentality....
when true victims starve daily...for food...for safety..for religious freedom...for medicine.....etc etc etc

the list goes on..and on...

I don't know where I am going with this post....

ARK

What???

I was SOOOOO resonating with this...

YOU WERE SOOOOO SPEAKING TO MY HEART....

My head was about to hurt it was nodding in agreement so much...

I think I'm falling "IN LOVE" with you...

THIS POST WAS WONDERFULL!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Steve,

I don't think that what the bible says is contradictory to MB concepts.

Christ sacrificed himself for the church and a man is called to do the same for his wife. We agree on that point. But Jesus sacrifice was His willingness to die for the church, not granting every whim of His bride. In fact, He often does not give us what we want, but what is right.

In marriage, if I as husband am called on to die for my wife, I am bound by scripture to do so. But giving my wife everything she wishes for, at my own expense is not an example of the type of sacrifice Christ made for the church. Jesus never compromised with selfish desires, in fact, he confronted such things and indicated that they were wrong.

The problem with constant giving in marriage is that it becomes giving to get. I expect my wife to give back in some way. This leads to trading gifts rather than resolution of conflict. If both parties keep this up, the marriage moves along nicely, but as soon as one person stops giving, the marriage is in trouble.

I want my wife to be happy, but more than that, I want her to have what is right. Doing the right thing is not always giving someone their own way so they can be happy. Jesus sacrifice wasn't giving something to the church that she desired for her own gratification but giving up his right as God so that the church could have what she needed, and that being justification.

Did I explain that right?

Mark

Sadpunk,

I think you raise many valid questions, and I also agree with Noodle's and PastorSteve's responses.

If affairs were strictly the result of not meeting ENs, then one would undoubtedly need to be concerned about future infidelities, since as you point out, eventually you will falter somewhere along the line in one area or another. Noodle makes clear that boundaries must also be honored, which is part and parcel to character. The fact that we bother to articulate some of those boundaries in the form of a marriage vow is supposed to prevent us from feeling as though we're walking on eggshells to keep our spouse faithful.

In the past, social values supported those with personal values against infidelity. But the social values against infidelity have eroded substantially over the years, and personal values are not far behind.

Strength of character has to make up the difference.

Is it worth it to try to save your marriage? That is a question only you can answer, but one thing to consider is that you will have no guarantee with anyone in the future either.

LOL, Ark, I wish you knew where you were going w/ your last post, 'cause I was really looking forward to its conclusion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Noodle has corrected some semantics in my thoughts. Yes, GIVING GIFTS is probably a more appropriate term to use, as I don't mean couples should "sacrifice" themselves in order to get or expect something in return. Yes, and DISCIPLINE is vital to successful marriages today. Both my WW and I lacked discipline and self-control in our infidelity, and that will definitely be something we both need to work on should we enter recovery.

And I want to clarify, I'm not saying that b/c couples are "stuck" in a M b/c of their covenant w/ God that they should not do anything for each other. Biblical and MB principles are vital for making a M work, and being a source of happiness for the couple. Willfully failing to meet ENs, LB, not behaving as "one flesh", etc., are just as sinful as having an A.

I do value Dr. Harley's wisdom in that he recognizes the weaknesses of the flesh that we all are subject to, and has provided the rules all marriages should implement to avoid as much as possible the temptation to stray from our marriages.

Hmm, you've made my point very well. It sickens me at times that people believe that remaining married becomes optional when their spouse begins to irritate them, or they don't "feel" loved by their spouse.

I was initially very disappointed w/ my WW when she shared w/ me that she's reading "Too Good To Stay, Too Bad To Leave". I held my tongue and avoided DJing, or any judging. I then appreciated that she did reveal to me her mindset, that she believes she has an option when it comes to her M vows. I'm praying that the Holy Spirit convicts her of the truth, as I'm trusting in Him to reveal it to her, and am avoiding trying to "set her straight" myself as Dr. Harley wisely advises. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In reflecting on my R w/ my WW, she probably never had much moral character at all, and that has to change if we are to recover (boundaries, discipline, etc.).


I agree w/ you there, we're all human and make mistakes, so I'm under no illusion that should there be a next Mrs. SadPunk she won't also break my heart.

I pray and hope you're right. In a sense, there is the possibility that my W, trapped underneath the WW, truly loves me in the manner I want, and that for her it will be a different road to redemption than it was for me.

And I should also listen to her; another complaint of hers use to be "I'm NOT you" whenever I would try to "set her straight". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Here's the thing about sacrifice - sounds very noble but what it means is that one partner WINS at the expense of the other. And one partner (the one who loses - loses some love units for the other one in the process)

The WHOLE Harley plan is about building a MUTUALLY satisfying marriage where BOTH partners win all the time and never at the expense of the other one.

We BUILD compatibility into our marriages in this way.

I don't know about that. It could also show that she's finally decided that going with the OM is the worst of all the options open to her.

Similar to my FWW deciding to stay with me after DD because that was the the best option open to her at the time. I think it had very little to do with what love she felt or didn't feel for me then.

My FWW also didn't show much remorse for what she did. I saw some guilt, but what I saw in the main was mostly shame, and a fear that what she did might be exposed. Demonstrations of deep remorse on her part might have aided our recovery, but that never happened.

As for now, it's been 2 years from DD for me, and I suspect that my FWW is likely not going to "fall in love" with me again, at least in any way that I perceive. Two years' since DD, and there's still very little intimate kissing, one of the sure signs that those feelings are back. In fact, what I am seeing instead are signs that her "A-personality" might be returning. To be honest, I'm not that I can ever feel about her the way that I used to either. Not while I continue to see in her someone who could invite the OM into our home for intimacy while I was out then act like nothing happened when I returned.

However, I remember my M views, and I intend to stick to them. "For better or for worse". And I'm concentrating on being the best M-partner that I can be. I'm hoping that our M does continue to improve as the years go by and that we will eventually reach a point where we are "in love" with each other again.