Erm, right. That's an interestingly distorted picture of what actually transpired. If you've changed so much, why are you still mis-representing what happens?

It's simple; you haven't because no human being on earth can change away from abusive patterns that fast. You're not a failure because you can't do it -- no one can.

So stop pretending you can. The pretending is part of the abuse. Keep them apart from you while you learn a new way to relate to the world. From what I've seen, you're both a smart enough and determined enough person that you can do this.

Be a man and take responsibility for what you've done by letting them go until you have a years-long track record of proving you have changed how you relate the universe from the very core of your being.

In church this would be the ~*AMEN*~ moment!

committed

Call me silly,
but I believe yep its me.

In That she was going to get a divorce With OR WithOut an EA.
[Not that she ever should have had one mind you].

However,
This on line stuff seems more like a distraction, as well as a place to vent and get some sympathy.
But not the cause or the reason for her exit.

If anything,
I'd look at the EA as the Exit Type.....or the "I'm outaaa here, so who cares type".
Cause indeed, she's Leaving for reasons that have nothing to do with any OP.

yepitsme,
Keep in mind that on an infidelity board ......the emphisis is naturally gonna be focused on the EA aspect.
However,
in your case ......that's most likely NOT where the attention needs to be.
Although it is good for all involved that you are/have ended it. That's a plus.

Just keep in mind that waiting till ya had left and divorced would have been a better option .....as well as not latching onto another Married person, whether YOU are or not.
Keep that info handy for the future!

Now,
Seems like BH has got some major issues and habits to deal with.
Should he?
Of course.

And even if it is too late for his marriage .....do it for himself.
Then maybe, in the future (concerning yepitsme).......who knows.

Hey, Top Rope. I think you are right on, except on the sympathy thing.

I did not seek sympathy from OG. I did not want to be rescued. I had to rescue myself...and my children.

I wanted respect. I very rarely complained about my situation to him, until it became apparent that I was leaving, and then it was stating my feelings on some matters, and not whining...I don't think it was, anyway.

I do not doubt that I have issues of my own to contend with. I still have Boundary issues, beyond the EA.

I hope that BH will do the work, and I will be too. We've got 3 kids to worry about.

Okay, this seems to be a huge stickler, and his hitting you was wrong...no question about that, but it really does need to be addressed for either ONE of you to really heal internally past this issue. Maybe not right this moment, but in time..so I'm just tossing this out here for something to think about in the future...

Abuse is wrong, hitting is wrong...so what other choices could have been made?

But healing can come through understanding the full dynamics so that both people can heal past this and learn new behaviors and how to see what other choices could have been made...and what triggered his reaction so that he can learn to work on that trigger in the future so that he can learn to respond differently, when/if the trigger comes up be it in this marriage or a future marriage to someone else who will benefit.

So in understanding the dynamics some truths need to be looked at and addressed, and so that everyone is on the same page, I am in no way excusing his choice to hit..but if he is going to change and learn other choices..he needs to look at what was going on at the time.

Was there an ongoing arguement?

if there was an ongoing arguement could you have just walked away or left the room before you reacted? or was something preventing you from doing that? (an internal urge to lash out? something/someone blocking the door?)

Did you just go up and hit her in the stomach because you were angry and having a bad day?

if you were just angry and needing to lash out, what other choices could you have made to work through your anger?

I appreciate your sincerity, though I don't do the explicity repeat-back thing on message boards very well. Mostly, in person, I rattle stuff off, then ask to make sure I was understanding correctly.


To this day, I'm still not exactly sure what it was, nor how long it went on. I know that no contact was not induced and he still works with her, but I don't think they are on friendly terms, though they were, somewhat, for a long while after.

I don't know how serious he was about her, but I do know that he was trying to hurt me with the situation, and I also know it hurt like the dickens.


I was curious before the contact between BH and OG. Esp. as I found out days ago that he'd given out my email. I would probably have read the emails between them if I had gotten in. Something about having knowledge to defend against lies or something silly like that, but that wasn't my sole motivation.


He knows he would not find confirmation of my EA by tapping that account. I've only used it to communicate with his sister, because I don't have accesss to a printer.


He did not post my email address, as far as I know. I appreciate your candor, here.


I asked OG not to post here, a while ago. But he is free to post where ever he wishes. If I thought he was going to return to this thread, I probably would have started another thread. Well...maybe I would have just clarified the one thing and then started another thread. Actually, lol, I don't think I would have started another thread at all, because I really don't even want to be here, right now. But I feel compelled to tell my side of the story. I hope that's understandable.


I don't think it's a good idea for me to be here, long-term. I really don't. If I did, I would have been back here.


I hope BH benefits from the help you all can give him and that my information will help you to do that, which is why I suggested that he post here when he was in his darkest moments.


I do not feel comfortable detailing what I meant, at this time.

I have a great support system of concerned friends and family and MB vets, that I didn't know would even care as much about me as they do, or that they would even be available to hear me cry. Thank God for them.


No. I'm saying that I'm demonstrating to HER good will to keep on an ethical track to healing and providing support for my children. Some bumps along the way, but I seem to be one who has to experience many of my lessons, rather than just hear about them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Yes, it is totally dependent on BH's changes, at this point. I cannot go back into an abusive situation. I have lived my ENTIRE life in abusive relationships. I cannot rebuild a marriage with an abusive man who raped me and punched me.

That's for the marriage. My healing has absolutely NOTHING to do with BH, however.


I still dont' even know if I was the BS, but I do understand the hurt, when your baby is 6 weeks old and your H tells you he's attracted to someone else, to try to get you to change.

I wanted no change for our R from BH. As far as I was concerned, R transcends legality, and in my mind, it was over.

That is not to say that it didn't hurt BH. I think it did. It's also not to say it was any more right than BH's, except for what he was trying to do with it. To me, that is separate from an affair.

I do not wish to be open with BH. He is not to be trusted. That's not affair fog; it's the truth.

My autonomy, I believe, is what has prevented a lot of psychological damage. I could tell when he was lying and twisting. I could tell why I felt disrespected.

Through MB, I realized that the marital problems weren't all my fault, as, I think, BH wanted me to believe.

But I was very dependent on BH, too. Dependent for money, because he controlled and had to control everything in that regard.

Dependent on him to contribute to an environment of peace in our home, which rarely happened. You see, I did read Boundaries, and I made the choice not to clean up after him, or to dominate his parenting, although I refused to allow him to verbally cut down our children or to strike them in a non-parental way (IOW, light spanking).

I made my choice to try to work on the marriage, as hard as I could. To get help for my depression, to try Fly Lady, to attempt to straighten out the finances in times of crisis and encourage him.

The fact is, I made my choices, even while many were stripped away. It has culminated in my leaving. My choice is not to protect him from the consequences of his actions.

"I'm sorry" is a phrase I often use to indicate some surprise or...incredulity.


I'm not buying that, entirely. While I agree that affairs are abusive, that is wholly different from Abuse. The fact is that comparison in this case is nigh to impossible to eliminate, because they have different consequences. An affair can be worked through. Abuse is a whole different matter. And I suppose I should say Domestic Violence in place of Abuse.


Ditto. And separate consequences.


I'm sorry, but I can't explain that right now. (That IS an apology.)


People in my situation have mended their marriages but it took MANY years and MUCH work by the abuser. That number that actually have repaired is extremely small.

BH harmed our marriage, not the EA.


I wasn't allowing BH to meet my needs from BEFORE the EA started. I'm sure it's possible/probable that that is true for OG, but I can't say.

It was a good friendship, before the EA. And what's really sad is that I KNEW it would end the friendship to embark on the EA, and did it anyway.


I compare because the consequences are different and I'm seeing that anyone is truly understanding that. Comparing the effects of the DV vs the EA throws into sharp relief that they ARE NOT the same; they are separate issues.

I'm dealing with something MB can't help.


My counselor will be helping me to work through the stuff that was wrong with my marriage. Entitlement is the work of abuse. I knew I was not entitled to the EA. I did not think I was impervious to the consequences. I did not use the EA to beat BH up, though I'm sure it hurts all the same.


I think I've explained my fog, and I'm not sure you're understanding it. You're working from your own perspective, not a former MBer's perspective. And you're also working, by your admission, from an Abuser's perspective and not the perspective of the Abused.


I'm glad to hear that, honestly.


Legally, only. Not spiritually and not emotionally. Even Dr. Harley recognizes Emotional Divorce.


Who I REALLY am tells me I need to make my choices devoid of my abusers' will. That means that I need a counselor who understands Domestic Violence. That is a choice I made.

That means I need to be free to make MY OWN mistakes and to do my best to correct them. I refuse to be dictated to, any longer, about WHO I am, about my WORTH, and about my relationships.

The latter may be a point of confusion for some. I do not mean that I will force anyone to be in a relationship with me. Never have, and never will. But I will not allow anyone to dictate my choice to have a relationship with someone or to not have a relationship with someone. BTDT, not doing it again.


I already have too much responsibility. I have taken on others' responsibility and born the consequences of their actions. No more.


That's right. I didn't get what I came for from MB, but from friends, one in particular, who opened my eyes to the situation I am in, which MB refuses to address.


Regardless of affair-fog, I'm not lying. I was completely cognizant of the possible ramifications of my EA, and was open about them to those that need to know.


And who I really am, and the One that made me, says that I need to fulfill His desire for who I am, and that I cannot be involved with BH at this time.

~ZP

TR,

His trigger is his abuse. I'm not responsible for triggering him to punch me in the stomach when he thinks I'm pregnant.

I'm not responsible for his threatening me with a knife, no matter what I did, short of threatening him with a knife, which I did no such thing.

I'm interested in his getting help for his abuse, so that he doesn't abuse anyone else. But he will not be abusing me as his wife, anymore.

Are you referring to the isolated punch that occurred years ago? Are you referring to the isolated finger penetration incident as rape, when you had allowed such intimacies in the past? ZP, be very careful how you're portraying your BH. There are abusive actions, and there's a definition of a continuous abuser.

I am not trying to rake you over coals, but I'm seriously concerned you doth protest too much. Just as your H needs to learn other ways to deal with things, so do you...

With all due respect ZP, please allow him to answer for himself if he so chooses, and even though HE was abused, does not give an excuse for his abusing someone else.

And so that you understand I am in NO WAY suggesting that YOU were responsible for his choice to hit you.

However, you both need to look at the dynamics of what happened the day he hit you..

Did He *feel* threatened or trapped? Did He try to leave and something prevented him from doing so? It was ultimately his *feelings inside himself* that were the trigger, and that is ultimately what HE needs to address, so that he can recongonize those feelings in the future and be able to clearly see ALL of his choices..and learn to make the best choice.

TR,
You asked about the fight where I punched my W. Yes, it was during an argument. I don’t remember the reason for the fight. But I do remember punching her. It was in the hallway. And I wanted to leave the house to calm down. She was blocking me from leaving and wanted to continue the yelling that both of us were doing. The argument was going nowhere. Neither of us was willing to back down on our position. They only way I saw to end the argument was to leave for a little bit. Now one problem is that I would not always approach the original subject again when I came back inside. I would hope that it could be swept under the rug and forgotten. I do not like arguing or yelling. My first reaction is to hole up. I get quite and just stand there or sit still. Until I get to the point that I can take no more and need to leave. At that point I would hit her if she kept me from leaving.

As far as her being pregnant, we had been trying to conceive but did not know if she was or not. Regardless of being pregnant or not it was wrong of me to hit or push her. Ever reaction I had then only lead to things escalating. I could have listened to her. Repeated things back to her to see if I understood her. And most of all kept my voice calm through out.

You also asked if I would ever just go up and hit her because I was angry or having a bad day. The answer is no. The only time I ever hit her was when I was trying to leave the house to cool down during a argument. This does not make it right. There is never a good reason to hit your spouse regardless of which partner it is.

What about the rape allegation. Those are pretty strong statements from yepitsme.

I would never condoning abuse or accepting abuse in any form, however, yepitsme has an entitled and wayward attitude imo that irregardless of whether she and broken try to reconcile will bite her in the butt in future relationships.

Hopeandpray,

I am not a lawyer. I only have a basic understanding of the definition of rape.

What I can say is yes she did verbally ask me not to do something during sex again. During the sex act in question I was looking at her bodily reaction to the stimulus and thought that she was OK with it this time. I did not think about the request from a couple months before. Did I ask her if it was ok? No I decided on my own to do it. Obviously I miss read her body. When she asked me to stop, I did. She says that I continued for a couple of seconds. After I stopped, sex continued as normal. Nothing was said about it until she told me she wanted to get a D.

Now how does that stand up in court? I don’t know. I was wrong to have done it and have asked for her forgivness.

If true then she has way overreacted imo. If this was something that she had told you not to do times before that's one thing, but to misread her while trying something new may be insensitive but certainly not rape. That is a big accusation and one that should be thought about hard before using it. Sounds to me like she is peeved about everything and using this and other things as a means to justify her actions. Although, as I said before I will not condone hitting a woman for any reason short of protecting one's health/life.

There were times before that she had asked me to stop and times where she was ok with it. Only once that I remember did she say to not do it again.

You mentioned that there is no reason for hitting a women. I agree. But want to add that it goes both ways. There is never a good reason to hit either sex.

Agreed

Alright...just lost a long post, and just summarizing because I don't feel like re-typing all of it.

Obviously I started posting here without knowing that ya'll apparently have a history here on MB, or without all the detail that's coming out now. There is clearly more going on here than just trying to deal with infidelity.

With that being said...I think that there are a couple of points that need to be brought up:

First: The abusive situation.

There are clearly two sides and two viewpoints on this. I'm going to aim this at each party.

BH- You've admitted to being abusive. OK. So why would you expect her to return to an abusive situation? You've SAID that you're making changes so that it won't happen again. Why should she believe you? What REAL steps are you taking? Have you sought professional help to get yourself treated for this? Created a real PLAN to ensure that you break this cycle? Counseling, etc...? You can't possibly expect her to simply believe that this has ended because you say it has...think about it.

Yepitsme(couldn't remember your other name)-
I recognize that you've been living in an abusive situation. You've taken steps to get yourself and your kids out of that situation...GOOD! Exactly what you should have done. But...I see a LOT of entitlement in your posts. I've worked with a lot of people who have been in abusive situations, and I've got to tell you that every time I've seen the kind of entitlement that you're displaying almost always have brought some of their own issues to the relationship. That's NOT saying the abuse was warranted. Abuse is NEVER warranted. What that IS saying is that you have a huge stake in the problems and issues in your marriage overall. You need to be taking some active measures to get your issues under control as well...both whatever personal issues you've got, as well as the things that clearly created problems between the two of you.

You said:

Then why are you still married? Why haven't YOU filed already? Guess what...marriage is an AGREEMENT that is COMPLETELY contrary to what you're saying here. You AGREED to no longer get into intimate (emotionally or physically) relationships with ANYONE but your spouse when you got married. If you couldn't abide by that, what on Earth possessed you to get married in the first place???

I think that the BOTH of you have tons of issues that need to be addressed here...well outside the scope of rebuilding a marriage. I think that BOTH of you (and likely your children as well, having been raised in this environment) need to come to grips with your OWN issues...work on fixing the issues that are preventing either of you from being the great person, parent, spouse that you can be.

In the meantime, you need to make a choice together. You need to decide if you can take this time to work on yourselves while remaining faithful to your marriage vows (and remain faithful to each other, both emotionally and physically), and work on things until you're ready to make a choice on attempting to rebuilding your marriage...or make the choice to end things now without trying to take these steps?

The choices are up to the both of you. They have been all along.

OK...I saw your post, and then saw that you deleted it. Here's my response...I'll remove your post that I had copied into it.


Simple question...have you ever...EVER...initiated physical abuse FIRST? (BTW...blocking IS a form of physical abuse...look it up. Cornering, blocking, striking, spitting, slapping, pushing, etc... all forms of physical violence and abuse)

Size is irrelevent. NO ONE SHOULD BE PHYSICALLY ABUSING THE OTHER...PERIOD. Size and sex have NO impact on that whatsoever.

My wife is a BIG woman. Twice my weight, easily. Does she pose a physical threat to me? Not really...I'm a martial artist, and a combat veteran. Her OM was twice my size...my wife was TERRIFIED of what I would do to him if we met face to face. She KNEW what I was capable of.

On d-day, I was so angry that I tore up all kinds of stuff...I literally smashed my gas grill into pieces with my bare hands. My wife sat there the entire time...and was not the LEAST bit afraid of me. (I know...I asked her about it later...she told me that she knew that while I was as hurt and angry as she'd ever seen in her life, she knew full well that I had complete control and would never lay a finger on her...and she was completely right).

Size=irrelevant
Sex=irrelevant

Bottom line- have you ever initiated physical violence in a conflict...took the fight to any kind of physical level BEFORE he did?

"BH- You've admitted to being abusive. OK. So why would you expect her to return to an abusive situation? You've SAID that you're making changes so that it won't happen again. Why should she believe you? What REAL steps are you taking? Have you sought professional help to get yourself treated for this? Created a real PLAN to ensure that you break this cycle? Counseling, etc...? You can't possibly expect her to simply believe that this has ended because you say it has...think about it."

I have been in IC since she told me she wanted a D. That was March 22nd. My first appt. was the next Monday. I have been every Monday since.

The last time I hit or pushed her was over 3 years ago. In that time I have also stopped spanking our kids.

The counselor has me in a anger management class that starts at the end of the month.They use "the anger work book" by Les Carter and Frank Minirth. I have already started the book and am in chapter 4.

So what I get from you, BH, is that you WERE abusive, but have taken active measures to correct the problem. You also state that the abuse ended 3 years ago, and I'm taking that you feel that this WAS an issue, but is no longer an active issue for you?

Has there been ANY kind of recurrence in the last three years? (read what I mentioned above as to what is physical abuse)

Yepitsme-
What's your side of this? I'm also interested in your response to my questions and comments to you earlier.

The only form of abuse in the last 3 years has been verbal or emotional. We would still yell at each other. This did happen less than in years past. So while I feel that I have a good grasp on my PA. It could still happen. I don't know if I could ever hit her again or not. The steps I still need to work on are how I express myself, I need to stop the arguing and start listening and talking. I know the steps to take now it is actually walking them.

One of the reasons (this and my own desire to never do it again) the PA stoped is she agreed to let me go for a while. With the knowledge that I would return. When I did leave I would go sit outside in the yard, walk in the woods behind our trailer, or take a drive to a parking lot and just relax. Most times I was back within 30 min to an hour. There were also times we would talk on the phone while I was out. There were also times she would chase after me. She would have the kids call me and tell me they wanted me to come home. One time I had to jump a fence to lose her so that I could calm down.

Not once did I not come home. I never stayed the night somewhere else.