|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079 |
The only form of abuse in the last 3 years has been verbal or emotional. We would still yell at each other. So basically what I hear you saying is that there has not been physical hitting in the past three years, but there has been both verbal and emotional abuses over that time. That both of you participated in? This did happen less than in years past. So while I feel that I have a good grasp on my PA. It could still happen. Why do you think it could still happen? Under what circumstances could you see yourself ever hitting your wife again? One of the reasons (this and my own desire to never do it again) the PA stoped is she agreed to let me go for a while. With the knowledge that I would return. What do you mean she agreed to let you go for awhile? When I did leave I would go sit outside in the yard, walk in the woods behind our trailer, or take a drive to a parking lot and just relax. Most times I was back within 30 min to an hour. There were also times we would talk on the phone while I was out. There were also times she would chase after me. She would have the kids call me and tell me they wanted me to come home. One time I had to jump a fence to lose her so that I could calm down. What do you mean she would chase after you, why was she chasing after you? And what do you mean you had to jump a fence to lose her so that you could calm down? Why would you feel a need to run and jump a fence to get away?
Simul Justus Et Peccator “Righteous and at the same time a sinner.” (Martin Luther)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 199
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 199 |
The only thing I'm owed is from myself to give myself the opportunity to find healing and happiness for the kids and myself.
Yes, in the kids' happiness, I want BH to be involved. But all that is up to him.
BH,
This is all moot. It's gossip of the highest order. Therefore, after this, I will not be posting.
Further, any work on our relationship will not even be considered without you finding a counselor trained in Domestic Violence to help men with their abusive behaviors, far, far away from your current counselor. That is my boundary. I'm not going to say it's the end of what I would require to think about rebuilding. I KNOW it isn't. There has to be a time frame and I don't even have that in mind yet. There has to be trust and I don't see that happening, ever. I still see no reconciliation in a marital sense.
I have no desire to control you. It's just that I have to have certain things in place before I would even begin to think about maybe having a relationship with you, which hasn't even happened yet.
DV counseling in place of your counselor, MB and other "counsel", time, lots of it (shielded from communication with you and you reading my communications and other types), lack of abuse, personal growth, trust. If you are missing one of these and I still can't find it in me to trust you, don't count on me.
~ZP
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715 |
ZP(Yepitsme)-
Nice dodge. Way to avoid taking ANY responsibility and avoid answering any questions. No one here is "gossiping". I'm actually engaged in trying to get the two of you to take steps to move forward and quit the cycle you've both got yourselves trapped in.
You seem as fogged out as any poster I've seen here. When pressed to step up and provide a 'real' answer instead of blasting out generalities and anger, you simply refuse to comment any further. NONE of the issues here have anything to do with your emotional involvement with another man at all...none of the marital issues could possibly be your responsibilty.
Now...I DO see your identifying a clear boundary in his domestic violence counseling as a good step. The other recommendations about counseling and such...great. Taking the time to think about what it would take for you to consider working things out is a great first step here. Getting counseling for you own issues is also exactly in line...counseling for the kids seems pretty likely to me given all that's gone on.
But then you take the standard WS twist: Of course, you want to be shielded from communication with him and you want to ensure that he's not capable of 'spying' on you has nothing to do with the fact that you've been emotionally involved in someone else...naww...that couldn't possibly have any impact, could it? I mean come on...we've never seen that listed as a demand from a wayward spouse, have we?
I wonder if BH should have as much say in YOUR choice of counseling as you've placed in his?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079 |
This is all moot. It's gossip of the highest order. not sure where the gossip is, your refering to, as he is seeking help and in order to do that, there has to be openness and honesty of the situation, all aspects of the situation. If he felt he needed to get away to calm down from a heated situation, and was prevented from doing so in anyway..that is part of the dynamics of the situation that need to be addressed..so that he can know HOW better to respond in such a situation to ensure he doesn't lash out physically again. An example of such would be to say..."Either you move, so that I can leave so I can think and calm down or I will call the police." So he needs to look at ALL the facts, not just his perspective, not just your perspective, but the facts which are typically some where in the middle. Further, any work on our relationship will not even be considered without you finding a counselor trained in Domestic Violence to help men with their abusive behaviors, far, far away from your current counselor. I'm curious what the issue is with having one of his pastor's from church counseling him?
Simul Justus Et Peccator “Righteous and at the same time a sinner.” (Martin Luther)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554 |
Further, any work on our relationship will not even be considered without you finding a counselor trained in Domestic Violence to help men with their abusive behaviors, far, far away from your current counselor. That is my boundary. That's no a personal boundary. That's controlling behaviour - you're trying to set boundaries on HIM. Telling him what to do and the consequences if he doesn't do it. Personal boundaries are about YOU are prepared to accept when certain behaviour is directed at YOU. Telling him who he should and should not go to for counselling is NOT a personal boundary - it's an attempt at manipulation and control, and it will lead to resentment on both of your parts - him, for feeling like he's being told what to do, and you when he chooses not to give in to your demand. The end result is love-bank withdrawals on both sides. I have no desire to control you. Unfortunately, your statement above suggests otherwise.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
I'm just not interested in marital counseling. Of course you're not. Fogs are strong. It will take awhile before the effects fade enough for you to think clearly. This is one of the most deranged and sick things I've ever read. ZP isn't interested in marital counseling because she is a responsible mother. She knows that the data is very clear that men who have committed the violent acts that BH has committed are at their most dangerous when their prey is escaping. To keep her children safe and herself available and healthy to protect them, she has to keep away from him as much as possible. Any less would be irresponsibly risking her children's welfare. Pretending that she should risk them all for some [censored] MBism when MB is absolutely clear this is one of the situations where it does not apply is, well, unreasonable and seems like a pretty gratuitous attack from where I'm sitting.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
So what I get from you, BH, is that you WERE abusive, but have taken active measures to correct the problem. You also state that the abuse ended 3 years ago, and I'm taking that you feel that this WAS an issue, but is no longer an active issue for you? Nope, he's still a very recent rapist, under the laws of my state anyway. Under the laws of my state he should get 15 years in prison. Sounds good to me. Folks who want to try to pretend the danger is past: I realize you probably mean well, but you are one of the critical reasons our society is as violent as it is -- we have way to much enabling the violent criminals and way too much blame/question/harry the prey. Please give that some thought.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079 |
That's no a personal boundary. That's controlling behaviour - you're trying to set boundaries on HIM. Telling him what to do and the consequences if he doesn't do it. I would have to agree it does sound rather controlling and certainly not a boundary.
Simul Justus Et Peccator “Righteous and at the same time a sinner.” (Martin Luther)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
ZP(Yepitsme)-
Nice dodge. Way to avoid taking ANY responsibility and avoid answering any questions. No one here is "gossiping". I'm actually engaged in trying to get the two of you to take steps to move forward and quit the cycle you've both got yourselves trapped in. This is ridiculous -- it isn't a dodge. It's a responsible and wise decision. ZP has more important things to do with her time right now (building a new life! YAY!) than satisfy whatever a bunch of strangers on a message board want to know/hear. Anyone who thinks she owes you answers -- grow up already. If it makes you feel any better, I can tell you that ZP is surprisingly relentless at seeking out people who will bluntly beat her with moral cluesticks as a sanity check against the trauma of abuse and escaping it. It's not like she's missing something critical by not engaging here. Oh, and by the way, chunks of this thread look like pretty lame gossip to me, so I understand why she used that word. If you don't think it's the right word, fine, but you aren't the universal arbiter of definitions.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715 |
MOS-
I'm not trying to pretend anything. What I AM trying to do is to get an accurate summation of the situation from input by both parties.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions here...I don't know the whole situation.
Neither do you, for that matter. I've not heard HER explanation for what happened here...simply what he thought what she was referring to. I'm asking for (and waiting for) her side of things so that I might provide some advice and input.
What you copied was my summary of BH's SIDE of things. Where HE saw things at...not where SHE saw them at. My money says that the truth is somewhere in the middle of those two views.
I don't know that the danger is past...please take note that I've not recommended that she move back in with him yet either, have I?
MB is great for rebuilding marriages damaged by infidelity...this marriage is damaged by that AND a whole lot more, from what I've read and gathered so far. It can be used to help deal with the infidelity aspects...and I do believe that a part of ZP's current state IS due to fog caused by her very recent EA. I believe that there is also truth in the abuse issue that has nothing to do with the fog.
Which is why this couple needs PROFESSIONAL help, both individually and marital. I think that the real scope for healing them lies outside anything any of us can provide here.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,715 |
If you don't agree with my assessment and responses, please feel free to ignore them at will. There is a feature on this site that allows you to do that. Please feel free to excersise that option in this case.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
Further, any work on our relationship will not even be considered without you finding a counselor trained in Domestic Violence to help men with their abusive behaviors, far, far away from your current counselor. That is my boundary. That's no a personal boundary. That's controlling behaviour - you're trying to set boundaries on HIM. Telling him what to do and the consequences if he doesn't do it. Erm, what? On what planet? She's said that she has certain requirements before she will consider relationship talks/work that she is involved in. That's a personal boundary. Nothing controlling about it -- she does not owe him a relationship. She has every right to choose who she will and will not have relationships with.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
MOS-
I'm not trying to pretend anything. What I AM trying to do is to get an accurate summation of the situation from input by both parties. That in and of itself is fine. Claiming someone is dodging because they don't indulge you in this is just plain childish. There's nothing wrong with you asking for a clear picture, but no one owes you one, and since it would be a massive amount of work to give you one, it's only reasonable to expect them to decline. They're better off spending the energy giving the clear picture to professionals rather than random message board strangers.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620 |
I think ZP has everyright to protect herself and her children from abuse of any kind, no further discussion needed. My problem is that she comes at this from a superiority position. She, imo, is in no position to be "holier than thou" having at least an EA with man while married, certainly according to Broken having been a willing participate in arguments, forced detainment, and more. Neither of these should be on the roof tops claiming victory. They both need help.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554 |
Erm, what? On what planet? Erm, this one. On yours, YMMV ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She's said that she has certain requirements before she will consider relationship talks/work that she is involved in.
That's a personal boundary.
Nothing controlling about it -- she does not owe him a relationship. She has every right to choose who she will and will not have relationships with. Telling someone which councellor he should or should not see is NOT A PERSONAL BOUNDARY. Sure she has a right to choose to be involved with. We all do. But that's an entirely different subject to what I'm addressing here. I see you have over 4.2K posts here. Obviously MB works for you. Either that or you have too much time on your hands <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Now, if your S was to tell you that you should no longer visit here, that you should engage the advice on other forums, would you consider that HER personal boundary?
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
Huh. Interesting. What I get from her is the opposite -- she was fully prepared for me to refuse to speak to her again when I found out about the online EA. She's been the opposite of holier-than-anyone in my dealings with her.
If I'm guessing right about which bits of phrasing you're finding offensive, I can tell you something about where they're coming from, if you're interested.
First, she's under constant onslaught of people verbally attacking her for daring to protect herself and her children. Her own parents are raining down vicious verbal abuse on her, telling her that she should just accept that her husband should get to rape her as he pleases.
Under that kind of strain and unending attack, you naturally wind up with the person expressing themselves verbally in a way that can sound fragmented and defensive when talking about the issues related to all that attacking.
Second, part of her phrasing is related to my own advice on self-forgiveness. Like I said, she expected me to despise and hate her for the EA. I couldn't manage to do so.
Try as I might, I've never heard of nor been able to find a true account of a woman escaping her domestic abuser that didn't involve some badness in her choices on the way out. ZP's path out so far is about as clean as I've ever seen it get, and while I'm not going to stop leaning on her to steer the straight and narrow, I'm not arrogant enough to think less of her for failing to accomplish what no human being can.
For the same reason, I can't bring myself to think less of BH if he can't stop his abusive patterns in a very short time. I do think less of him for choosing to indulge them in the first place. But no human being, having built those patterns into their life, can simply just stop them on a dime. I'm not going to condemn him because he can't.
Well that veered off from the original topic -- I hope it was of some service, anyway.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079 |
Anyone who thinks she owes you answers -- grow up already. With all due respect, most of my questions have been geared to him, not her. I've asked her maybe two questions, do I expect her to answer, honestly no I don't. Nor do I think she owe's me an explaination. However, HE is looking for help whether she decides to file for divorce or not, and in order for that to happen, He needs to look at the entirety of the situation, including what he was feeling at the time, so that he can learn to control his actions even if/when his feelings are going haywire inside.
Simul Justus Et Peccator “Righteous and at the same time a sinner.” (Martin Luther)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
Sure she has a right to choose to be involved with. We all do. But that's an entirely different subject to what I'm addressing here. No, it's not, no matter how much you like to pretend otherwise. She's not saying he has to engage with a certain kind of counselor -- as far as what she's said, he's entirely free to see whatever kind of counselor he wants. She's said there will be conditions that would have to be met before she would consider discussing any sort of marital relationship. That's her boundary. I don't get where you're getting the fantasy that she's making him do something. She's just staying away from someone who is clearly unsafe. She threw some information out there about how he could begin to establish proof of being less violently unsafe, and how we have people crying "controlling". It makes no sense. He can go right on being as violent and unsafe as he wants, and she's not stopping him. She's just trying to keep her kids out of the flakzone. I see you have over 4.2K posts here. Obviously MB works for you. Either that or you have too much time on your hands <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Now, if your S was to tell you that you should no longer visit here, that you should engage the advice on other forums, would you consider that HER personal boundary? You lost me. Who is her/S? My Sister? Which one? If one of my sisters suddenly said that she will no longer have a relationship with me if I post on this board, of course I would consider that her personal boundary. I'm not sure why you think any of them would...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,323 |
Anyone who thinks she owes you answers -- grow up already. With all due respect, most of my questions have been geared to him, not her. Yes, they have. However, as you can see if you look at the quoted post I was responding to, she got accused of "dodging" for declining to spend her energy here, which was the reason for the above comment. I'm all for people helping BH make the best decision on whether to divorce or not. BH, I suspect you don't want my opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but if you do, here it is: I think changing your life and how you relate to the world so as to end all abusive patterns is going to be easier and less hideously stressful if you divorce. It's going to be hideously stressful no matter what <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> , but hanging on to the expectation that ZP owes you a relationship will only slow your progress.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,620 |
Huh. Interesting. What I get from her is the opposite -- she was fully prepared for me to refuse to speak to her again when I found out about the online EA. She's been the opposite of holier-than-anyone in my dealings with her.
Her tone is all I have to go on and it seems holier than thou
If I'm guessing right about which bits of phrasing you're finding offensive, I can tell you something about where they're coming from, if you're interested.
First, she's under constant onslaught of people verbally attacking her for daring to protect herself and her children.
This isn't what I have read. AS I stated, no one should have to endure abuse of any form, period and if she feels threatened she should remove herself and the children ASAP.
Her own parents are raining down vicious verbal abuse on her, telling her that she should just accept that her husband should get to rape her as he pleases.
No one should get to "rape" anyone. I guess rape is in how you define it. According to the husband it was one thing and according to wife it was something much more sinister and intruding. I don't know who is telling the truth, but to cry rape is a big deal if it isnt' just that. If it is then she should have called the law to deal with him right then and there, imo.
Under that kind of strain and unending attack, you naturally wind up with the person expressing themselves verbally in a way that can sound fragmented and defensive when talking about the issues related to all that attacking.
Fair enough..
Second, part of her phrasing is related to my own advice on self-forgiveness. Like I said, she expected me to despise and hate her for the EA. I couldn't manage to do so.
This is where I am completely confused or haven't read every post or something. WHO ARE YOU, the husband, boyfriend, friend, relative,...I missed something in the way you have written your posts that has me confused.
Try as I might, I've never heard of nor been able to find a true account of a woman escaping her domestic abuser that didn't involve some badness in her choices on the way out. ZP's path out so far is about as clean as I've ever seen it get, and while I'm not going to stop leaning on her to steer the straight and narrow, I'm not arrogant enough to think less of her for failing to accomplish what no human being can.
I am not surprised that she had failings while distancing herself from "abuse", only that in justifying it she has demeaned herself.
For the same reason, I can't bring myself to think less of BH if he can't stop his abusive patterns in a very short time. I do think less of him for choosing to indulge them in the first place. But no human being, have built those patterns into their lives, can simply just stop them on a dime. I'm not going to condemn him because he can't.
He needs professional help from the sound of things, that we can agree on.
Well that veered off from the original topic -- I hope it was of some service, anyway.
|
|
|
0 members (),
649
guests, and
84
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,625
Posts2,323,524
Members72,031
|
Most Online6,102 Jul 3rd, 2025
|
|
|
|