Thanks wiffty. I just googled and found John Gottman's website, I've read a bit and taken two of the quizzes. I'll try and get his book.

Your mentioning narcissistic tendencies is triggering something in me. My mom is definitely narcissistic and I've struggled my whole life with alternating between guilt and anger, and with recognising and maintaining boundaries. I've suspected he might have some of the same tendencies, I know it's common to find a spouse who mirrors things you went through as a child; but I hoped it was my imagination.

Oh, I feel so panicky right now... if he's really narcissistic does that mean things won't ever get any better? And that my kids are gonna go through things like what I went through?

I want so badly to talk to H about this, but I am not in control enough right now to make sure it will be Thoughtful Requests. Why can't we be best friends so that I can turn to him when I'm scared?

Whoa, Whoa, and Whoa. . .

work on yourself to strengthen your boundaries. . . and read Gottman. . . and learn . . . education and experience help you with your decisions. . .

wiftty

Ok... I'll try to slow down, to not think that everything must be solved absolutely this minute.

I see I need to work on boundaries, thanks for pointing that out to me. It's easy for me to see how to enforce boundaries against someone who is actively trying to force something on me, I'm not sure what to do when H is passively not doing something. (When I put it like that, it sounds like I'm the one trying to force him to do something. I'm trying to see things his way, and not make Selfish Demands.) So, with good boundaries, I guess I protect my feelings and his at the same time. So, when I make a Thoughtful Request, and he refuses to do it and refuses to negotiate, I want to come up with something... not a threat, but... some way of saying I need something here and if we can't figure out something that you are happy to do then this is what is going to happen? Maybe if I say "If we don't find some way for this need to be met, our relationship will be harmed in this way" that isn't a threat, but a statement of cause and effect?

Boundaries... I learn to own my part in what's wrong in our M but not accept the blame for his part?

you got it - you are a fast learner on paper. . . implementation? that's called practice. . . trial and error. . . practice. . . . implicit learning = learning by doing. . .

if you don't get a response, there is nothing you can do to force a response, except decide what you will do when you don't get a response. i don't know what the topics of discussion always are when he stonewalls. . . try listing out topics on which he stonewalls, not the entire dicussion, just the topics.. . . keep a list. . . and maybe we can offer some suggestions. . ..

wiffty

That sounds O&H to me.

MC is a great place for O&H when you don't trust yourself to be able to say what you need to without LBing, alone. Two things that have helped me with this:

I talk out loud to myself (when the kids aren't with me) in the car. It helps me strip the LBs away and get to the O&H.

I talk to H on a walk. We're not facing one another, and we're both in motion, so it seems to make it easier. And either one of us can simply walk away if we get overloaded. And then figure out why we were overloaded. Those LBs can be sneaky, especially the DJs!

Thanks wiftty, e_o.

"A fast learner on paper" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yep exactly! I am getting better with the implementation though... nowhere near good enough yet, but I'll keep practicing, you bet. I'll try to make a list of things H stonewalls on, and let you know. I'd appreciate the suggestions.

Talking out loud to myself also is a great idea. I also smiled when I read "when the kids aren't with me". There's a lot of times I think I don't recognise LBs. A few weeks ago was a huge "Aha!" moment when people here (thanks, people here!) pointed out some LBs I didn't recognise.

I read something interesting over on the Gottman Institute webpage. What do you all think?

H and I talked briefly today, about my need for more communication and about the most recent argument over child-rearing. I told him we are supposed to come up with a solution we can both be enthusiastic about, and he couldn't think of anything either. I said that if I want to talk, and he doesn't want to talk, then by default he gets his way. He said he'd try to talk more, and I said that wasn't good because he'd be "sacrificing" to satisfy me. I told him I understood that he probably was reluctant to talk to me because he probably felt like he couldn't trust that I wouldn't say hurtful things. I said that I was trying to do that less. He said that he possibly said hurtful things to me too. I said "Possibly??" with a smile and a twinkle in my eye, and he smiled too and said, ok, we've both said hurtful things. He agreed to having one "conversation" each day, even if it's a short one, and discussing who's going to take the kids to school doesn't count. I asked what would happen if the end of the day came and we still hadn't talked, and he said basically it would have to wait for the next day. I said that wasn't acceptable, because he's agreed to things before, and some of those things he keeps putting off, and I finally stop bringing it up because I don't want to nag. I asked if I could remind him if the end of the day came and we hadn't talked. He said no, that would be nagging, no matter how I brought it up. I said that isn't fair, if I can't even bring it up, because again he totally gets to have his way, and he gets all the power. He said he didn't have anything else to suggest, that he wasn't going to have a discussion at 11:00 at night. I suggested that if we hadn't talked by 9:00, that he stop whatever he's doing to talk. He agreed.

I guess that's not optimal, because it's not necessarily something he's enthusiastic about, and also because if he doesn't do it there's not much I can do about it without LBing. But I guess it's a start, and it got us trying the negotiating technique.

Feel free to tell me if you spotted any LBs or have any other suggestions.

great negotiation, because you point out the unintended consequences of his agreeing and then not living up to his agreement. . . and then you say, unacceptable. . . lets keep trying. . .

now the trick is to have some positive reinforcement or happiness or fun, when the conversations happen. . . and more so if they go well. . .

wiftty

We've arrived at our destination after a long car trip. Towards the end, i was getting pretty snippy, committed some DJs and he, well he did some bad things too but one way of looking at it is his bad things were to not satisfy my SDs. Oh well. Gotta love brutal O&H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MIL and FIL arrived hours after we did. Everyone is tired. Things are going surprisingly well. H even asked his folks (after I prompted) to watch the kids tonight so we could go out on a date. That was one of my big requests last summer, and the MC's suggestion; H committed to 10 date nights over the summer, then it was decreased to 6, we ended up having 2. In the past, as soon as my mom is in town I ask her to watch the kids while H and I go out, but H has always refused to ask his folks, saying he wants to sit around and talk to them. So it's a major step that he's asked them and we are having a date night.

My problem: I've spent most of the day here reading posts, and I've let it get me down, bitter, and resentful. I'm thinking of all the things H still isn't doing. I need a kick in the butt to straighten up and to not mope around like a child.

I'm terribly worried about finances. Last day of the car trip, last day of May, I reminded him of our commitment to completing a cash flow plan before the next month started, a la Dave Ramsey. He didn't want to do it. I said that I was really worried about things (starting in the fall I will probably be the sole bread winner) and that in order to protect myself I feel I must do it alone if he won't do it with me, but that will be bad for our M (IB'ing). He still refused, just saying we would do it "soon" but "not before the beginning of June" and "probably not for the next 2 weeks". I'm tired of putting my things on hold waiting for him - things that need doing, like budgets; things like waiting for him to figure out what he wants to do job-wise, putting my own professional things on hold; etc.

So these are the things I'm thinking about, instead of being glad for a date night. I don't want to go out with this attitude; I want this to be a good RC experience. I started out reading the posts (from LA?) about not letting your Taker insist on getting your own ENs met, just concentrate on meeting your spouse's. But I ended up reading posts that fed into my resentfulness. Stupid, I know.

Ok so we went out on our date, and I didn't LB. Yay! (Something I've always wondered - is that how you spell "yay"? Cus "Yeah" isn't really what I mean.)

Today we went to the Farmers Market with the kids and his parents. There was a horse-drawn carriage giving rides and DS5a wanted a ride, and H and FIL were supposedly seeing to that while MIL and I spent time with DS5b. After 30 minutes we were hot and thirsty and tired and ready to go... they still hadn't gotten the ride, hadn't found where to go, etc etc... I had to ask where to go because H wouldn't. Ok, then I made a couple DJs.

Came home, sat outside with MIL who asked about H's job situation etc., and well I told her. I am O&H by nature, sometimes too much, I didn't sound angry but I didn't hide or sugar coat things either. I asked if she thought she could talk to him and she said she doubted he would listen to her either. The rest of the day was pretty pleasant talking to ILs; after dinner H went off leaving me to talk to ILs, then he was pretty short when MIL asked about our plans tomorrow and I was trying to coordinate with him - do I go into work but I don't yet have a desk and I could do most of what I need to do here, but I need to renew some training and I need to meet with someone, but it seems DS5b got an eye infection playing in the water or something so someone needs to take him to the dr., but H won't do that, I need to be here to take a phone call cus my prescription eye glasses were left behind on our car trip when DS5b fell and skinned a knee - in the process I left my glasses, and H refused to just ask about them the next day even though he went right by there taking the kids back to the park, I asked after my meetings but missed the person by 20 minutes; they will call tomorrow and I have to give a credit card number to pay for the shipping, but H won't let me use his even though all my credit cards are US dollars and we are now in Canada and we try to keep the Canada and US money separate... etc. Me asking to use his Canadian credit card was probably more DJing. Now he put the kids to bed and I came upstairs and he still hasn't come to bed, I dunno if he's downstairs talking to his parents or what.

I guess last night was positive reinforcement time, today I probably destroyed it.

Things he stonewalls on:
future plans (both long term - where to live etc; and short term - who is doing what tomorrow- he knows what he's doing, and everyone else can just work around that)
job prospects
writing out a budget (which I've given up on; POJA, I can't force it; I'll have to IB it to protect myself and my kids)
completing the EN questionnaire (which I've also given up on; again POJA, if he doesn't want to do it I should stop asking)

That's all I can think of for now.

I think I've figured out why Plan A is more appropriate for betrayed spouses who are trying to get their spouses to return, than for spouses who are starting to withdraw because their love banks are in the red and their ENs are not being met. I've read around, and I'm not the only one struggling with POJA with a spouse who isn't committed to POJA. I think I've been mis-applying some of the MB principles and applying the wrong ones.

Some of what I've been doing I've been aware was mis-applying them but I didn't have a clear idea of something better to do, so it was at least a start. That was trying to meet his needs without negotiating to get my needs met. With my H, POJA means he can refuse to do something without brainstorming to figure out a solution to make both of us happy, and if I try to continue the conversation he either simply stops talking or leaves the room, which in a way is his right, but in another way is not acceptable if he doesn't come back at a later time to finish the discussion. Somewhere it says that it is mis-applying POJA if one spouse ends up giving in to the other; in my efforts to not LB (nag, SD) I was giving in when he refused to talk or when he refused to do what he'd agreed to. Just like predicted, that resulted in my feeling worse and committing even worse LBs (no more AOs but the DJs still come out when I feel frustrated and hopeless).

There was an article I had read, but then I couldn't find it again for awhile: it is
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009_qa.html
Part of it says

That article does give a plan of action, but it is *not* to *not* request things of H. (I'm not saying you guys told me to not make requests - you've been telling me to learn to make respectful requests, I've just been struggling with implementing that, and it's just been easier for me to concentrate on LBs and ENs and hope he would reciprocate on his own). The article also says it often doesn't work:


SO: this morning he did something I could praise him for, he stuck up for me with the plans we'd made for dinner when the ILs started changing everything around. After the ILs left I called H and thanked him; it was good positive reinforcement. I then repeated my desire to do a budget and/or the MB stuff with him. He agreed we should do it, and I said I wanted to discuss a time tonight. He agreed. (The agreeing is not a new thing.) I'll try to respectfully hold him to it. There's still no way to enforce it, I guess I just keep making respectful requests until... how about 70 times 7? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tonight after dinner ad the kids were in bed, but before he was actually coming to bed, I respectfully asked how he felt about talking. He agreed to talk, and I said (respectfully, lightheartedly, without tearing up etc, making "I feel" statements) "I feel unloved when we don't finish the questionnaires or the budget." Great talk ensued. I explained POJA and how it is not POJA for one person to veto everything, that *something* must be done that satisfies both parties. I managed to say all this in a light hearted fashion. I wonder if I'm speaking from a better place emotionally, or if the time of the month has anything to do with it, or... during our recent car trip I missed taking my AD med about half the time but I would think that would have made it harder to not get teary-eyed. Maybe my efforts at not LBing are actually touching him (and me?) in ways that makes it easier for me to talk to him.

Anyway, quite a nice, non-dramatic non-traumatic discussion with a commitment to something I'm enthusiastic about, he says he's enthusiastic about, and potentially will be carried out.

Afterwards, well, does SF count as positive reinforcement?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jayne,

"Anyway, quite a nice, non-dramatic non-traumatic discussion with a commitment to something I'm enthusiastic about, he says he's enthusiastic about, and potentially will be carried out."

You did great. This sounds like great progress to me from where you were in earlier posts.

"Afterwards, well, does SF count as positive reinforcement?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />"

Sounds like positive reinforcement to me especially if this has been an issue for you guys in the past. To me it seems like when two people are better able to communicate other needs improvement to SF often follows.

I say good job Jayneygirl. Chin up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh well. This is the bottom of the roller coaster, I guess, and I'm not doing a good job of not LBing and using negotiating skills.

Several things have come up just this evening, and I would think "remember the MB principles!" and I would wonder what folks here would advise... and before I knew it, another thing would come up. I've definitely DJed when he clams up and refuses to talk. How do you POJA when the other person just shuts down?

He's clamming up when I ask him to explain some persistent behavior that is very annoying to me; when I ask about something that seems to me to be treating the kids unequally; when I ask to talk about budgets; when I request to talk about future plans.

So. Boundaries. I'm trying to learn to enforce and respect boundaries and to learn negotiating skills, right? Not Plan A. In other words, it IS ok if I make requests, right, and hopefully I'm getting better at it.

So with those last two things, budgets and future plans, I really think it is reasonable for me to expect that we would discuss those things together, but he IBs. Possibly to the point of being passive aggressive. It's hard for me to not get angry and frustrated. So far the best I've come up with is to walk away - essentially, IBing back. There must be something better to do.

But those first two things, now those I really get angry about - unequal unfair treatment of one child over another, and the other thing - I'm pretty steamed right now, and I came here to post because I was DJing.

The other thing: It's summer. It's gorgeous outside. On the drive home we passed a lake with a beach and families were out there enjoying themselves, and we had been discussing plans for the weekend. I mentioned swimming - but that topic is extremely loaded now. Over and over again, we have agreed to "take the kids swimming" only to find out those words have different meanings for the two of us. Last year our MC suggested I make sure we define our terms, so today when the topic came up that's what I did. To me "taking the kids swimming" on a beautiful hot summer day means (1) outside, (2) more than wading, (3) two adults are in the water since we have two kids who are 5 years old and who don't yet know how to swim (probably because their parents don't take them swimming! I was jumping off the diving board when I was 3.). Here, the only outdoor swimming is in lakes. When we would get to the lake, I would find out that to him "taking the kids swimming" means he stands on shore and watches the kids splash around, and if I want to go in the water I can take one kid at a time out if I want, while the other kid cries because I left him in the shallow part and Daddy won't take him.

Oh, did I mention that H was on his high school's swim team?!?!? And has life guard training. He is vastly more qualified than I am to take the kids out.

So, today: I remembered to define our terms, and good thing too, because I'd been overly optimistic about how well things were going. He agreed it would be good to take the kids swimming this weekend. I light-heartedly said we should define our terms, and said that, to me, on such a beautiful hot day, "going swimming" meant outside, and "swimming" to me didn't mean "wading"... at which point he said he was NOT going to go in the water. I don't know why I was surprised, but I was. I really thought things had improved.

Ok, especially after recent discussions here of respecting others' definitions, respecting boundaries, not bullying, etc., I remembered I did not want to try to make him do something he didn't want to do. So I said, "I know that I'm not going to change your mind, but I really don't understsand why you don't want to, and when I see it happening I get angry, so maybe if you could just explain it would help me to understand and not get angry." He said "I've already told you, I don't like it." I suggested several things - the water's dirty, he's afraid of fish nibbling, he doesn't like the idea of swimming in water where fish poop (I'm keeping it light-hearted, I'm smiling, and trying to give him an out, and NOT trying to commit an Angry Demand). He says "I guess it's dirty."

I said, "Ok, well I know I'm not going to change your mind, but we need to come up with some solution that we are both happy about because I will get angry if things go the same way they have." Or something like that - probably a poor choice of words, it sounds like a threat when I type it here, but the way I said it was more like "Let's POJA something that satisfies both of us." He said "How about I (H) take the kids swimming while you stay here?" I said, "That won't work, I'm the one who wants to go, and what are you going to do when the kids want to do more than wade?" He said "Then we'll come home." I've seen how he can be, and how he can be with the kids, when his mind is made up; and I want my kids to have fun, there's absolutely no reason to turn this into something unpleasant. If that's how it's going to be, we might as well stay home.

Please tell me what to do. How do I negotiate soemthing that will provide some RC and FC for all of us? How do I keep from re-acting when the whole atmosphere has gone all tense and angry? Is there an alternative to just IBing?

<momentary whine> Why can't he be wanting to please ME and bring ME out of withdrawal?

-Sorry. I'm back now.

Jayne, what I've learned, is that this LBing, it's like a chemical thing. A frustrated feeling, atmosphere. I had to crowd it out with lots of things that were IB, but they gave me the connection I needed to I can reach out in strength instead of desperation. It's taken me a long, long time to create so much calmness, that I really notice when the angry part starts. So I can nip it in the bud.

I got this from a book called The Commitment Chronicles. When you feel that drop, drop in core value, that resentment returning, yourself getting angry, ask yourself, what would Real Love do for myself right now? Do some self-care.

IBing is planned behavior. Are you IBing? Or getting away from the resentment to make room for the peace and joy? Enforcing boundaries, not staying in a PA situation?

Have you read the Boomerang relationship?

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

There is specific advice for P/A behavior. Remember to take a moment and think of something that makes you happy before you try the advice. Because if you're on the edge of angry, the habit behavior will be easier than the new one.

Have you all looked at the RC inventory? If you want swimming to be a FC event, without the kids crying, what about bringing a relative along? So you all can have fun, without making a demand of H?

jayne,

I can imagine that if he was on the swim team in school, that he only enjoys swimming in pools. When you're really used to swimming in one kind of water, sometimes other kinds can seem weird. I'm from a coastal city and am used to swimming in the ocean or in pools. I always find lakes a bit weird. They often have dirt instead of sand, and the fresh water is always a surprise. I don't mean a bad surprise -- it's just not what I'm used to.

It may be that your lighthearted questioning made your husband feel embarassed or self-conscious about his discomfort with lake swimming. What if you had simply accepted his preference and worked with him on brainstorming creative ways to arrive at enthusiastic agreement?

And for this particular instance, POJA might have required a better definition of your objective. What are you trying to accomplish? Have a fun family event? Or make sure the kids learn how to swim? For either of those objectives, there are probably tons of different ways you can meet the objective, and I hope it won't be too hard to hit on one that you can both agree to enthusiastically.

I think part of where you ran into trouble is that you settled on a single solution yourself (family day at lake, everybody swims), rather than presenting the general objective and inviting your husband to work with you to think of ways to meet the objective.

Hi EO, thanks for the reply..

I hadn't thought of it that way. I am not *wanting* to IB, I am only walking away because I am frustrated and on the verge of anger (or already there!). And I also thought that if I did things independently like the budget plan that we agreed to do together, that would be IBing. I guess if he refuses to do it with me, and it is something that *needs* doing, something that a responsible person would make sure is done, that doesn't count as IBing.

I have a lot to learn on enforcing boundaries. I guess walking away from a P/A situation, and doing the responsible thing even if he refuses to participate, is a good thing to do, not IBing.

Just that realization helps tremendously. I've felt like those were bad things to do, which really increased my frustration; but if those are ok, possibly even the right things to do, then I'm halfway there!

Thanks for the link to the Boomerang Relationship article. I've read it before, but not in awhile. The part describing the behavior is so long, it would tend to get me upset and feeling hopeless by the time I got to the suggestions. Then the list of suggestions is so long, how can I remember all those in the heat of the moment...

I'm cutting and pasting the suggestions into a file, and highlighting several main points I want to concentrate on. I hope to remember them all, but I'll concentrate on a few at a time. Thanks again for that link!

I can see the pattern in his FOO that is described in the article. And I can see how it's repeating itself, with him maintaining a low-level hostility and withdrawing; he has been absent physically and continues to be absent emotionally; my anger makes me the bad guy and allows him to not face his own anger. I don't want my boys to grow up to be P/A men, and I want to break the pattern. It seems almost hopeless and overwhelming. Parts of the article even say to explore why you are staying in a P/A relationship- should I give up, before more damage is done to my kids? I may start a thread just for discussing that article, and dealing with P/A.

Bringing a relative along for swimming is not an option most of the time, no relatives in town. There is a woman at his work who lives on a lake and has one kid the same age as ours. She's been who H talks to when he gets a babysitter. I'm getting to know her better. Maybe I could ask if we could come over to swim and play sometime. She often has people over, I don't think she'd mind as long as they didn't have other plans. This weekend they have plans to get away for Father's Day.

Hi curious,


Thanks for the input! Again, more suggestions that it is ok to IB, or at least what I was afraid was IB. One thing that was delaying my walking away from frustrating situations was the thought that would be IB. I really felt trapped, I want to do what's best for the marriage, and staying in the room was only making me more angry! But I want to show him how to not IB, so I've been staying in the room beyond my frustration point, and delaying responsibilities waiting for a time that he keeps promising we can do it together.

Healthy boundaries- don't stay in the room when I can feel his low-level hostility (yes, I can sense it, almost like thin smoke in the air) and when I feel my frustration rising. Just walk away, as long as the kids are not in physical danger. Correct?

And, go ahead and do the things that are responsible, like the budget... Setting a deadline or a date to do them together doesn't help. Maybe if I just pick a time to do them, a reasonable time for both of us (as in, he's not sleepy and the kids don't need attention; he may be on the computer, but if I wait for a time when he *isn't*, it won't happen) and invite him to join me; then do it, whether or not he joins me.

And plan some healthy FC things that teach my kids the things I want to teach them, and invite him along but make sure the activity does not require him to participate.

Right? That's healthy boundaries, not IB?

Sheesh, sorry, I feel like I'm in kindergarten here, or Remedial Relationships 101. Thanks for putting up with my questions.

And the insight into swim team swimmers - yes, I'd even heard a story (true? urban myth?) of a guy on a swim team who fell off a boat in a lake and drowned, he just didn't realize he could swim in that water. That amazes me, I don't understand it at all. I mean, I can definitely see how it feels different and odd at first, if you are used to swimming pools, but I find it hard to believe a person won't get over it. I'll work on just accepting that other people don't necessarily think the same things I do!

I was never on a swim team, barely completed the minimum lessons at the YMCA, but I grew up in the US South - days were spent wearing nothing but bathing suits, in whatever water was around - until I was 5 we had a restaurant beside a hotel with a pool, and we went swimming *every* *single* *day*, then when I was older we lived on a lake. We also went to Florida every summer for a week, and would go to the mountains to play in the river on weekends. I want my kids to be that comfortable in the outdoors and in water.

I tried to define the terms, like MC suggested. I did invite him to think of alternatives, but yes, by my definitions there weren't too many alternatives, unless he (or I guess we) can find another adult to come along.

Ok, what are my objectives? A fun family outing doing anything, at least. Ok, that we can handle.

But, and it doesn't have to be this weekend but I really want it to be more than a handful of times this summer, I want the kids to learn to swim! That is a definite objective.

And it may be a separate objective or it may be the same objective, but I want the kids to spend more time outdoors.

H would be willing to take the kids to an indoor pool. I think I would feel resentment, if it was a beautiful day outside, and we drive to a place to swim in chlorinated water. Should I just get over it, and have us go to a swimming pool? I don't feel enthusiastic about that option. Can anyone come up with some other ideas? H doesn't want to brain storm. I'm willing to hear things outside of my limitations of two adults both in a lake teaching the kids to swim, because I acknowledge he isn't enthusiastic about being the other adult, and there isn't a stand-in available soon.

So I acknowledge my constraints are too, um, constraining, and I'm willing to find an alternative that satisfies both of us, I just need some help with the brain storming. I will ask the friend at work about us coming over sometime. Does anyone have any other ideas?

Jayne, you are asking me if that's correct. I think it's really something that you have to try for yourself, and see how it fits. Check your intent. That really helped me stop second-guessing myself.

I don't think there are one-size-fits-all answers to this. But for me, it was a lot more honest to leave the room and go do something that made me feel like myself again, than it was to sit in a room with my fear that I was modeling for my kids to sit quiet when they feel mistreated.

This has been a big signal to me, whether I am being honest, or feel scared to be honest. Fear and anger are signals.

What would I be doing right now if our family didn't have this illness? And then compare it to what I am doing.


What curious said is so key, too. You need a budget, today. H is unwilling today, so if you're willing, you do it, alone. It is a thoughtful request, something you try, and then you and your H see how it's working, and then modify as you go along.

jayne,


I would consider this three separate objectives and try to meet each one separately. If you wind up meeting two objectives with one solution, that will just be your bonus.


Can you feel enthusiastic if it's just a H-kids activity, and you can spend your day outside? Perhaps you can feel enthusiastic at the thought that it's an opportunity for the kids and H to further bond without you getting in the way?

Sounds good. It's a little hard for me, I'm the type of person who is afraid time will run out, and he's the type who thinks time is infinite. Somewhere between the two of us is a normal person. <Hey! Get out from between us, Normal!>

But it would be better to separate the objectives and achieve at least one, than to try to do too much and achieve none, or worse, achieve a lot of LBs.


Hmmm... I feel guilty but no, that won't quite do it for me... I would want to go even if it's inside, because two adults are needed, and also I like swimming even inside. If it's not nice outside, that would be fine. (It's cloudy and rainy today; I suggested going to an indoor pool, he said no.) If it's nice out and we are swimming inside, I would feel various bad things, but I'd still rather go than have him take the kids alone.

I think getting a third adult (or even teenager) and we all go, would also be a good option, for me at least.

He went shopping for kids' bikes this afternoon. Their old bikes were too small so we didn't bring them with us. I've been asking what we could do for Father's Day (buying him something he hasn't requested does not work with him) and he kept saying "nothing." A few days ago I suggested we buy "for him" some bikes for the kids, since one of his favorite activities is mtn biking and he was talking about taking the kids on some easy trails. He pointed out an area where the kids and I could go part way, then I could go back with the kids (I'm not in as good shape as I was BK - Before Kids) and he could enjoy the rest of the trails. So today he went looking for bikes, and I'll ask if he wants to take the kids to look at bikes tomorrow. That would be some good RC and FC time for both of us. (Separating the objectives! It doesn't teach them to swim but it gets them outside and us having fun!)

I'm ok with that. Maybe I'll ask the woman from his work about coming over to swim sometime.

Should I hope that he'd learn to go in the water? Not try to change him, but possibly get my hopes up? Probably not. Maybe it would be better if I took the kids, without him. I'm afraid I'd feel resentful, no matter how I tried to prepare myself.

Thanks for talking me through this!