I hope everyone (in the US at least) had a Happy Thanksgiving. Canada already had theirs. (Hi Canada! *wave*)

H's parents, who just happen to be Canadian, drove down from Canada to spend US Turkey Day with us. I had the awesome responsibility and privilege of playing hostess to their very first American Thanksgiving. I think I deposited a whole gobble of love units. It was fun, mistakes were made but they were hilarious. (Imagine 30 minutes before dinner's ready; turkey's almost done, ready to come out and "rest", MIL and I are reading the recipe to finish this new dressing I'm trying; H is standing over the skillet asking what goes in next; I see it first, and start laughing hysterically, then MIL sees it --- "...and bake for one hour." LOL )

A couple times at the beginning H started to take something I said wrong, but fortunately I noticed and explained what I really meant. That isn't a DJ - for example, we were busy cooking, and I asked H if he wanted to do something, and he didn't say anything but looked like he wasn't happy with me "ordering" him around. So I said, "You don't have to, I was just asking if you wanted to." Followed by me asking MIL "What else is there to do?" which H thought I meant toward him - there's nothing else to do, so you should do that. But I saw his look then too, and saw that he was about to start doing whatever I had asked him to do, so I said, "No really, I'm not saying you should do it, I'm just asking what should *I* do next."

I'm glad I was able to stay aware of his reactions and to address misunderstandings.

His parents get along great with each other, and MIL is able to ask FIL to do various things. Observing them I notice, MIL has a much nicer tone of voice when asking, doesn't sound hurried, and prefaces everything with "hon".

After a few days of their visit, H seems more relaxed and less likely to assume I mean something bad.

There's been times in the past, when MIL and FIL visit that MIL takes over like it's more her house than mine. That usually is when they visit the Canada house. She didn't do that at all this time. There were also visits when I was recovering a major illness, and was taking lots of pain meds and I just wasn't a nice person. So I was better this time too. I think H really enjoyed seeing us get along so well.

....................so, back to what we were discussing....................................

Thanks for the links EO. I read the article about the chemicals of emotion, especially adrenaline. I can see how it fits. It's great knowing there's a reason my brain doesn't function properly when experiencing those emotions. I don't feel so guilty or stupid. Understanding the chemical aspect of those strong emotions is helpful.

I also browsed around other articles on Al Turtle's site. Very interesting. I read the article on making amends. Now I understand more of what you and LA are talking about! I need to read about "listen and repeat", I think I know what that means but I should read up on it to make sure I'm understanding what y'all mean.

More on where H and I are now: Since we've had company, we haven't had the privacy to discuss the LB questionnaire lately. Last time we discussed it, I asked if he was enthusiastic about doing it, and he said no. But I didn't think to reply with negotiating skills until a day or two later. I said I understood that he didn't want to do it, and so according to the MB principles he shouldn't, but that didn't mean I am supposed to just live with whatever he decides. I said I wasn't enthusiastic about not talking about things. I asked if we could discuss possible solutions, and he said "Not now." It was late and I didn't expect him to be willing to discuss things right then, it was more just to let him know I wanted to come back to it sometime.

Then a few days ago, I peaked at his partially completed questionnaire. Appropriate I guess, since this thread started by me peaking at his ENs questionnaire, which we still haven't discussed. Anyway, reading what he sees as LBs on my part, wow. I thought I was doing better than that. I'm glad I read it before his folks arrived, because I was more aware of my LBs and was able to watch out for them more.

I know that I always have trouble with this:

My problem is that MrCat's reactions always look or sound like he's mad or at least irritated. Well, as long as he's initiating a conversation, we're good. But if I bring something up, there's likely to be a face made. Just this morning, he finally brought up our vacation plans, so I got on line and found a solution to our problem which started a couple weeks ago; but then he went back to his own work on his computer and didn't answer whether we could proceed (he had to find out which days he would be out of town working and he was supposed to be looking it up, but then he started answering emails). So I had to ask again, cos I had left all the arrangements up on my computer; I needed to know whether to shut it all down and try again later. So when I asked, he said (in what sounds to me like an exasperated tone) "I told you I had to find out when I'm gone!" So I replied "Please don't use that tone" and was about to say "it makes me feel bad when it sounds like you're mad at me" but he cut me off, snapping (I'm pretty sure that's not just a DJ, it was pretty snappy, even with a snarly face) "I'm not using any tone." So we stopped talking, and I shut down my computer.

You're a good role model for me, though. You seem so proactive and knowledgeable and able to initiate discussions, which is where I can't progress. So I'm learning.

Anyway, it sounds like you're really doing well. Congratulations.

Cat,

I've found one of the most unaddressed questions in marriage is "when"...we imply, leave to the obvious...yet we don't really ask the question with the actual word "when"...

"When do you think you'll know about your time off?"

Or, for the more road-weary, "Do you think you'll know about your time off in an hour, today or tomorrow?"

Our sneaky assumptions often hide in our "whens"...assuming he was going off to his work computer to immediately find the answer and return...our assumptive when. Not knowing is okay, too...seeing them is far more healthy than not seeing them...when goes to our abandonment, rejection and withdrawal parts...when sets our tones through assumptions.

Same for removing yourself from verbal abuse...holding ourselves to stating when we will return...doing what we most need from others changes how the when in us is heard and experienced.

As for stopping talking...own it. "I'm choosing to withdraw from you right now. I'll be available to talk some more in 20 minutes." Our when matters. Our assumptions kick our tushies, just like our expectations...and we see our partners doing it, not us.

LA

Me, a role model? *blush* I hope I'm not painting over my flaws! Thanks for the encouragement, I was feeling bad that H saw many more LBs than I had expected.

I know what you mean about "the face", and needing to bring something up but dreading the reaction. Lately, I've been trying something that isn't exactly full H&O but it seems full H&O isn't what H wants in such cases. I'm trying to just not say anything when I think anything I say will be taken the wrong way.

There were a couple times when H said something snarky in reply to me, and I just couldn't think of anything good to say - to explain myself would've taken more than the 5 seconds I felt I had his attention for; I felt anything else I said would just make things worse; so I just looked at him with an open mouth, and then simply closed my mouth and walked away.

I'm not sure this is the best way to handle such sitches, but in the heat of the moment it's the only thing I could think of. I didn't trust myself to say anything that would improve the sitch, so I closed my mouth and walked away.

I'm not sure, but I think the result is better than if I had replied. Sort of like, he was expecting a fight and was left holding an empty bag. That may have even made him more open to hearing my explanations when I did give them, like during cooking.

So, for example: I can totally identify with needing H's input and info to make plans. With my H, in the sitch you describe, when H didn't reply with the info I may have gone to my computer and emailed him the links or info I had open, along with a bulleted list of questions. Then gone on to do something else and leave it up to him to reply or not.

One small observation, and know that I think you are quite wise and inspiring yourself - please don't think I think you meant it like this - but your comment "please don't use that tone", well to me it sounds a bit parental. Yes you had a right to enforce boundaries and to be H&O, but the wording to me sounds like it may have escalated the conflict. That's the sort of sitch that lately, I'm trying to just close my mouth and walk away from, if I can't think of a better way to say it at that moment.

Does that make sense? There's probably a better thing to say, I'm just not good at thinking on my feet. And if I'm misreading the tone of the exchange you describe, I'm sorry and please ignore. I truly value and respect your input.

I'd like to post H's responses to the LB questionnaire and get some feedback, if that's ok. Or is that a violation of H's privacy?

Hi LA! Yes, what you say about "when" reminds me of a book I looked through in a bookstore a while back. I forgot the name but maybe you know it. It described a W asking a H to take out the garbage. W meant "honey the garbage is overflowing and I have to throw away the turkey carcass too so can you please come take out the garbage right now?" or something to that effect. What H heard was "don't forget garbage day is in three days so remember to take out the garbage before then."

and what you suggest: "I'm choosing to withdraw from you right now. I'll be available to talk some more in 20 minutes." That's probably what I should say when I can't think of anything to say and end up just closing my mouth and walking away.

That when story makes sense, Jayne. (And thanks, LA, you're making perfect sense, as always.) Our problem stems from some issue we have in our relationship where any time I mention anything that needs to be done, he will not reply or react to it immediately. I mean every time. Even telling him that dinner is ready; sometimes I tell him 15-20 minutes early, because I know he will not come to the table any earlier, even when we have company over. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, in that he cannot multitask and can't start something without finishing the last. D17 has less patience than me, though, and she just stands there and keeps reminding him until he gets up.

The problem with that in my case is I've taken it to an extreme, in which I've done it so often that now I just don't talk any more unless we have to get something done or I have to communicate something important, because he either assumes I'm wanting something from him (and snaps at me) or he seems to not care because he interrupts any conversation I start. I used to try to point out to him that he was interrupting me, he would apologize, but then I couldn't get myself to resume what I was saying, because I felt like if what I said wasn't important enough to make an issue out of, I'd feel even worse (low self esteem working here). So I like LA's way better than just not saying anything. Just don't think I can do it.

BTW, I had emailed him the information 2-3 weeks ago, when I made the reservation to hold the space, and asked him about it once a week since. I emailed him what I reserved, and I emailed him all the other possible choices we could have made (it's a time share, so you get what's available), including some for Thanksgiving weekend. He just opened the emails today. Then he says, "why didn't you tell me there were some in November?" I said, "I did tell you, remember I said that blah blah blah." He realized I had, and didn't answer. Just went on to do his work and dropped the subject.

Thanks for the observation, too. I kind of know I do it, out of lack of skills and frustration. I am just now learning how to recognize it. And I have 30 years of non-responsiveness from him and bad behavior from both of us to get past. But it helps to get it pointed out.

Ah, sounds like you are speaking to me from the future, my possible future if I continue along this path! Thanks for the warning. That is incentive for me to have ready a statement like "I'm choosing to withdraw from you right now. I'll be available to talk some more in 20 minutes" rather than simply closing my mouth.

Question: One of the times I just closed my mouth, was when H said something in front of MIL. What is a good statement to make when the sitch occurs in public?

That's exactly what I was thinking, that if you start not talking, you might end up like me! Very perceptive.

Could you make a joke out of it? As in, "Oh, H, you're so silly. People are going to think you're serious, if you keep that up."

Have you tried setting your firm boundary's as far as how you will be treated with respect ahead of time ?

As a H with a once passive/aggressive W that would be nice to have in many situations. Instead of a "whatever"<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> only to pay for it in some totally unrelated and confusing way ...later.

Have you already taken this risk?

I appreciate assertiveness.

He may as well.

Wow, jayne, I love all the conversation that you're inspiring! Meaty stuff!

The listen and repeat is something I haven't read in a book yet, but a technique I learned from LA. I'm assuming that it's an Imago technique.

I am glad to have you all to come to. I am having an awful attitude since last night about my H. Do you guys ever feel like that, like EVERYTHING someone does is agitating and unacceptable? I am glad that lots of things are not mine to own, because my own attitude is enough to try to trace and figure out!

Jayne, I hear you that you don't find that you are DJing in guessing your H's mood. I haven't been able to do that WITHOUT DJing, so I try not to try to guess his feelings, and ask clarifying questions instead. "What does that look mean?" What is your intent?" That DOES put him off, as you may expect! He isolates further, and then I say, "well, when you're ready to talk, I'm here." And then he does open up when he is ready.

Jayne, I think it's fine to put the LB questionnaire up. If you're feeling uncomfortable about it, would you feel better if you discussed it with H first before doing it?

CP, thanks for posting about this, "I'm not using any tone." There is a lot of room for O&H here. Have you talked to your H about what you shared with us about how certain tones make you feel uncomfortable to speak? Even if that isn't his intent? That this is one of those tones that make you uncomfortable. Whether he's mad at you or not. Is it a tone that someone else used? When he is mad, how would you feel comfortable with him expressing that?

I miss HTBH's group hugs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ((((Group Hug))))

cat: Hmmm, making a joke would take some practice, I'm terrible at saying something not in line with what I'm feeling (hurt or frustrated). If I have such a comment prepared beforehand though, it could work.

cadillac: No I don't think I've defined firm boundaries. I tend to not think ahead. But I want to learn. I think that would help me give better responses than whatever I say in the heat of the moment.

I'm really interested in a H's opinion. Do you mean that I would approach him in a time when we aren't in conflict, and say something like "By the way, when you do <x> (like, give a certain response or use a certain tone) I feel hurt and don't know how to respond. I just want to let you know that I won't stay in the same room when that happens." ?

Maybe I could identify what's going on when I tend to DJ or AO, then determine a boundary for those times and a more appropriate action on my part, and let H know.

Ears, oh yes, I sometimes feel that everything H does is agitating and unacceptable. I think that's part of what was going on with me around my conference. I wasn't doing too well then. I'm sorry that you are going through something similar now.

Here's a hug for you: {{{{{{ears}}}}}}

Do you think there's a particular reason you are on edge? For example, I can see that I was probably full of adrenaline due to worrying about the conference. Do you think this is related to your H, or to something else? (I haven't yet read your latest on your thread, so sorry if you've already answered this. I'm going there now.)

editted to add:

With the guessing his mood, since people like MIL were around I didn't want to come out and ask questions. The look was pretty much a form of nonverbal communication. H isn't very big on verbal communication anyway, so I've had experience in picking up his other communications. I think it wasn't a DJ because I wasn't predicting but rather interpreting, which could be a DJ, but also, I didn't use it in a disrepectful way, but in a way to "protect" him from misinterpreting my comments.

So my action was to explain myself further when I was getting signals that he wasn't happy with what I'd just said.

I *think* that means it wasn't a DJ. And it seems to have worked, in this sitch. If it was in fact a DJ though, I'm open to hearing that.

Thanks for letting me know you think it's ok to post H's LB responses. I have asked H to discuss it but he isn't ready or doesn't want to. I want to come up with a way to negotiate a POJA since H would prefer to not do it at all.

We’ve discussed it before, but he only says that I’m wrong, that he isn’t doing anything. That I’m just being uptight. Then he changes the subject.

A little history. He is never wrong. He refuses to be. The one time I got him to go to counseling, I only got him to go by telling him that I needed help and they wanted him there to help me (stroke the ego); it lasted three sessions, when the C told him that she felt she and he needed to start having sessions alone. Boom! Out of the room, cussing her every step of the way, refused to ever speak of it again.

That is exactly what I’ve read in several places – that you talk about when you are NOT in disagreement, so there is no winning/losing going on. Makes sense.

Jayne, thanks for the hug! I had such a long response, I cut it to post it on my own thread, but I'm multitasking at work, so I cut something else onto the clipboard instead!

In a nutshell, H does have annoying habits, specifically drinking even when DD6 is sick, but I've chosen to accept that he's not working on them today. Which is actually okay, because when I am O&H about the continuing annoyance and remind myself that it's not mine to own, I actually have not been feeling resentment. So it's something that I have control over, whether or not to build resentment. Or like LA says, I can choose not to go down that rabbit hole.

I traced it, too, and when I was a kid, when someone was sick, it was "their turn" to relax, and the rest of us basically put aside our dysfunctions. It was a time that we could count on our stepfather not to drink and cause problems at those times, like a respite. So I had an unspoken expectation that H would lay off the drinking until DD6 was better. Then I was surprised to find myself feeling resentment about it.


But it's good to know that I'm not the only one who gets cranky. And it helps to be reminded of all these ways to deal with it, too. There's a lot of great stuff that was posted to Hold this weekend, too, how to respond to the negativity. It helped me this weekend when I fumbled with my own negativity, too. "Did I just say that out loud?" I was O&H with H that I was dissappointed by my tone because I thought I'd successfully excavated this stuff from my thinking, only to find it back not only in my thinking, but escaping out my mouth, too. In front of the kids! I'm glad that my H was forgiving about it.

Cat, I can't wait to see how you resolve this with the vacation. A lot of times someone will post up their solution and then I find that hammer works for lots of other nails, too!

Jayne, I hear you about the nonverbal communication. As long as what you are doing works for both of you, that sounds great. My problem was that often when I saw H make a face or other nonverbal, I assumed it was about me, that he doesn't like me or what I'm doing. I did that with other folks, too, not just H. And he does that, too, assume someone's unhappy because of something he did. LA and I call it "picking the worst assumption in the bunch." But it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing.

Cat, I put myself in your H's shoes. That sounds horrifying, to have your wife and daughter think that you're a tyrant like that. What about having a talk or writing him a letter or something where you explain that you're willing to see him in a new way. As an equal partner, someone that you look forward to seeing.

And this is what that would look like for you, someone who doesn't choose to do things that shut you down. Who protects you even when he feels you are uptight. Even when thethings he is doing weren't wrong things to begin with. Like this tone thing. That you understand that his tone isn't wrong, but it still makes you uncomfortable. And then show him how you would feel comfortable with him saying it.

My H and I talked about this yesterday. How we grew up without so many skills that other people have. But that we can choose to pick up these things now. We both have a lot of "soft spots" about lots of things, and that's okay, too. I was amazed that H was willing to talk like this with me, even after I'd been so cranky earlier. I think this "it's not about me" thing is rubbing off on him, too.

I was looking for the Nails in the Fence Story. The one I read wasn't judgmental, but all the ones I found today were. maybe you can modify the end when you share it with your H.

eo, very nice. Thank you, I might just find a way to use that.

The problem with telling him is that I've been conditioned by 30 years of his 'not being wrong' so that I'm gunshy. I was raised not to voice my feelings in the first place, so living with him for 30 more years has made me such that I get literally sick over even thinking about saying uncomfortable things. It's like being on a diving board (I'm afraid to even jump off, let alone try to dive...childhood accident) - I can stand there and think about what I want to say to him, come up with a dozen ways to say it, get it all prepared in my mind, and then just get sick and walk away. I tried writing to him in the past, but he reads at about a 5th grade level, and it would frustrate him so much to try to understand me, in addition to him realizing that I was questioning his actions (he's never wrong), that it would create huge issues, worse than before. I did put a call in to a counselor, to see if she can help me work on my side. And he agreed to go see her next week for our daughter's session, although I guarantee he doesn't think it's about him. I predict it will go as well as the last time.

Aside from that, I've been trying to find little ways to point out that what he says or does has negative effects. Let him come to his own conclusions. I'm just having to be really diligent to find those openings.

Cat, I see how others have been harsh with you on the board. Where I find you so helpful and interesting. And so I asked myself what do you remind someone of that would make them so mad?

I think it's this lack of speaking up that you identified. Would you agree that this dishonesty by omission is your biggest love buster? The one area, that while the most painful to work on, would yield the most fruitful results? Cat, I totally understand how painful it is. I think the counseling is great, because it will help you indentify strategies that work for you.

The Drive-by O&H has been so helpful for me, even though I didn't like it at first, because I want an answer. It taught me that my opinion matters whether others hear it or not. Like you said, letting others come to their own conclusions. letting go of the results. Do you think this strategy would be do-able for you, or still scary?

Cat, I feel really bad for your H. I can't imagine what kind of childhood would make it that scary to be wrong that someone would prefer everyone else around them to not voice their opinion.

H was the oldest of 3, with a schizophrenic mother and an alcoholic dad who only married the mother cos he thought she had money. When H was 5, his dad had him up on roofs, helping him put up roofs; H never got paid for any of it. His dad would take him to bars and put him to work stocking and cleaning, so the dad could get free beer. He usually drank away all the money he earned, so H would dig through dumpsters for food thrown out, or scoop up rice that fell out of train cars along the tracks, so the family would have something to eat.

His younger brother did nothing wrong, walked on water, got all the toys he could want, broke the toys H got and never got punished, that kind of thing. H gave up any money he got to give to his sister. They had to move every couple years because his nutty mother would create disasters everywhere they went. When H was 15, his mother kicked the husband out, and expected H to get a job to pay for them all; he did. They were still living with him for 3 years after we got married (H was 25 when we married). By the time he was 19, he was working 3 jobs and had bought his first house.

It's not that he doesn't want people to express themselves; he just cannot comprehend that they would believe anything other than what he believes, and if they don't...they're just wrong.

Can you explain more about the Driveby O&H? (sorry Jayne, to be taking up your space)

Yeah, I know that; that's why the first thing I posted when I first came here was for help in how to talk to him when I can't get up the nerve. I know it has to come from me; I just can't make myself do it.

"It's not that he doesn't want people to express themselves; he just cannot comprehend that they would believe anything other than what he believes, and if they don't...they're just wrong."

So what's wrong with listening to people anyway when you think they're wrong/silly/mistaken? We went this weekend to go see the movie Enchanted. Afterwards, I told H and DD11 that I found it unrealistic, and they had to bust up laughing (because it's a fairy tale, of course it's going to be unrealistic), but then let me continue. Is he patient in other areas?

The drive-by O&H is where you're walking from one area to another, like carrying the clothes basket from the laundry room to the bedroom, and saying something on your way, and then continuing walking. The benefit is that it removes the pressure on the other person to respond.

If he listens to someone else's 'wrong' opinion, he feels obligated to point out how they are wrong or, if they're present, to argue with them. He was on the Board at our neighborhood and he was so argumentative that the other members just starting emailing each other and addressing issues without including him. It was one of the rare occasions where he listened to my advice, because it threw him for a loop, that he was literally (and quite obviously) being ignored.

If we had had your conversation, it would have included him saying why I was dumb to think that way. I've been working on digesting all this stuff a la MB, and am feeling like the next time it happens, I'll be ready to make at least a small comment on how his reaction is a LB to me. We'll see.

Your driveby is actually like something I've often told others, something I read once - the best time to talk to a man is when you're driving because you're not facing each other. To a male, facing each other is a confrontation; side by side carries less need for 'winning' and less chance of starting an argument. But I like your idea better. Will definitely incorporate it.