I also think you (cat) have helpful advice and comments. I hope I'm not one of the ones who has been harsh with you.

I like ear's Drive-by H&O. I've used it too. I have to make sure it's respectful honest comments, not taking potshots, but it's great for taking the pressure off the other person. I think H appreciates that, not having to respond, having time to think.

I was wondering if your H could have some narcissistic tendencies - can't be wrong, can't imagine how an opposing opinion could be valid. But from how you describe his childhood, maybe he just hasn't learned the appropriate social skills yet.

I'm sorry you are gunshy now. I hope you can improve your self-confidence. Your thoughts are valuable.

"Jayne, thanks for the hug! I had such a long response, I cut it to post it on my own thread, but I'm multitasking at work, so I cut something else onto the clipboard instead! "

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm just sitting at the front of the classroom while the students take an exam... I remember envying the teacher, reading a novel or something while I took an exam...

"So I had an unspoken expectation that H would lay off the drinking until DD6 was better. Then I was surprised to find myself feeling resentment about it."

It's great that you were able to trace it to this unspoken expectation. Have you spoken it now, or are you dealing with it yourself?

Tracing my resentment to its original thing helps me. And oh yes, I certainly identify with being able to choose to feed or not feed the resentment! I was just thinking this the other night. It feels soooo good to nurse my grudge. Things go downhill until I decide otherwise.

About "picking the worst assumption int he bunch", I know what you mean. Like you say, I think that isn't what I was doing. H sometimes does that, and probably me too. On Thanksgiving I thought he might be doing that, based on his reaction - so I replayed in my head what I had just said. I then saw how he might be interpreting what I'd said (I often say things without thinking, that can be taken in a way I didn't mean at all) so I clarified what I meant.

Thanks for trying to keep me honest! I hope I didn't sound defensive or make you less likely to call me on things.

Oh, Saturday first night, I didn't do so well! I said, I thought you could take a break from the drinking for one night, and poured the beer down the drain when he wasn't looking. I don't think that was O&H; I think it was criticism, because I was talking about his action as if there is a right and wrong, instead of talking about his action and the consequence to me (feeling stuck getting the kids ready for bed alone, with DD6 needed a lot more assistance because she was sick).

I apologized the next day, and asked him if he could take a break Sunday evening. He said he only drinks a couple of nights a week, and I don't argue with his reality. I had already shared mine. So I said, in that case, since you take 4 or 5 nights a week off anyway, what about making tonight one of those nights? He said okay. I know this wasn't a good approach, either. When I'm doing better, I ask him specifically for what I need (help getting the kids to bed) and like cat said let him draw his own conclusion on the rest.

Heh. You do a lot better than I do! However, I may have had a breakthrough.

I may have mentioned I'm in the middle of a battle with H over him putting away his underwear/socks/t-shirts. I do everything else in the house except what D17 does, so I've taken a stand against also putting away his clothes. We've discussed it; to this point, he has refused to help and he had several loads of clothes piled all over the floor by the bed where he had shoved it. Saturday morning, I asked him (as he was laying in bed watching tv and I was cleaning), if he would help out with clearing up some of his stuff. "What stuff?" (waving my hand around the room piled high with his 'stuff') "Any of it. I don't care, just help me get through some of this."

Next thing I know, he's on his computer. So nothing Saturday. Sunday, I was sick enough from a cold that I stayed in bed, while he got up to take D17 to church and then shopping. When I got up, I realized that he had actually put away his underwear and socks. Just moved the rest of it to another pile, but he did that much.

So my babysteps may be working, too. I'm so glad I don't have your issue of drinking, though (and I'm sorry you do). I don't know if I could handle that on top of everything else.

I've been reading HNHN and I'm feeling resentful and wanting to withdraw. I *think* I made a lot of deposits in H's love bank over Thanksgiving, and he's been acting pretty happy and sweet. I don't want my resentfulnss to withdraw those love units.

I'm not sure he notices my resentfulness. I'm not DJing, SDing or AOing, I'm just not sharing H&O - and in the past he's been known to complain about too much H&O.

We still haven't discussed the LB questionnaire. I think we should do that before trying to meet ENs. Maybe I shouldn't read HNHN until after we've discussed the LB questionnaire. Any thoughts?

Any thoughts on how to negotiate a discussion of LBs when H is definitely not enthusiastic? Or shall I just accept being the only one applying the MB principles, and continue to work on my part?

What can I do to keep the positive love bank balance?

Shall I provide SF tonight when I don't really feel like it? I'm not opposed to it, just not feeling very close emotionally and feeling tired physically.

If he's anything like my husband, his bedroom needs drive a lot of his thoughts and actions. In other words, if he's feeling the urge, it's probably the best time to bring up something that's bothering you, because he'll be most likely to want to please you, in order to get what he wants. For instance, in the past, if MrCat wanted bedroom time, but the room needed picking up, I'd keep cleaning until it was so late there wasn't time left for sex. So he would go around and pick up, so there was less in the way of me getting to the bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So maybe you could say something like, 'you know, we could make this one of our romantic getaway nights, with incense and oil, but lately, I'm so stressed out over the relationship, I'm having a hard time getting in the mood. You know what? I bet if we went ahead and filled out the questionnaire, it would lift a huge burden off my shoulders, cos I'd know you were really committed to seeing this through. That's one of my ENs - knowing you want me to be happy. And that would make me more affectionate, in return.'

CP, I like that!

Jayne, the LB questionnairre, he's not enthusiastic. You're right, it's not time to accept that; it's time to negotiate. I wish I didn't keep forgetting that LOL.

But meanwhile, you don't need to let that hold you up. HNHN is awesome. In there, I saw tons of ENs that H met that I didn't even realize that people don't meet. So I felt very grateful right away, and had new hope.

Which LB questionnaire do you want to go over? Yours? Do you already have some sense of what to work on, without him explaining it?

His? If you go back to respectfully sharing your H&O, even when he mistakenly sees it as love busting, I think it might ameliorate that. Did it help before?

Jayne, has his unemployment become an "elephant in the room"? So annoying that it ruins how you see the rest of him? Can you forgive yourself and see that as normal for you to feel that way, if you do?

I like the idea of approaching him at night, with the hint of SF to follow! The way you say it is very diplomatic and thoughtful. I'll try that.

Hmmm, which questionnaire do I want to go over most? I'm not sure. I guess both, but ... I've peeked at what he wrote, but I'd like him to complete it and let me see the finished one. I'd also like him to see how his IB and dishonesty (in the form of lack of H&O) really really are huge LBs for me.

Yes his unemployment is a huge elephant in the room. Forgive myself? Hmm. You mean for resenting it? Am I supposed to forgive myself, because I thought I was supposed to stop feeling resentment. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you describe what forgiving myself would look like? I don't mean to ask a supid question or be sarcastic. I'm really wanting some help.

I've encouraged H to apply for jobs, to discuss options for both of us, etc. H knows, and he's said that me even mentioning such things is nagging to him. So I feel my only option is to shut up and bear it. I sometimes manage to not think about it, and then we get along (but it may just be blissful ignorance while we are barreling toward a cliff). When I do think about it, I feel resentment.

If it's ok to feel the resentment, is it ok to show the resentment? Or what?

I can't picture a way of doing the Drive-by H&O without LBing, when he's said even the mention of it is nagging.

Or would leaving him alone and trusting him to solve this problem on his own be the best approach?

One result I'd like to come out of the LB quest. is for him to see that it is reasonable for me to expect that he would share his job plans with me.

When my H was laid off, I basically did all the job hunting for him. I signed up for all the job search emails, I fixed his resume, I checked all the new jobs posted, I even wrote cover letters as him and sent them off for him. Maybe you could do some searching around on the job websites and get a feel for them, and then show him what you've learned. Show him that you can create a placeholder for him on those sites and even keep an eye on postings for him. I know that's treading on what he said not to do, but what I'm thinking is approaching it as something completely different from what he's currently doing. As in, "hey, I just realized that you can go on monster.com (the best one, IMO) and post your resume and then create a search engine so that you get automatic emails of all the jobs that fit. Did you know that? I didn't. That sounds like something I'd be good at; would you mind if I try it out? It might open up some places that aren't coming up in your search." I think that might not be LBing him, not sure though.

Jayne, do you remember when my H did this with a company in SoCal? It's hard to blow off a company calling for an interview LOL, especially when admiration is a top EN and they're telling you what an asset you'd be for them!

What about asking your H, he's probably be enthusiastic if you're willing to take ofn some legwork and initiative.

I'd like to tell you jayne that your open honesty on this forum has actually helped me ... this thread had inspired me to get the his needs her needs book (dunno how but it did)... seeing your interpretaions of your hubbies actions has also inspired me to be a more loving hubby to my wife .. and to appreciate the things she does more so instead of taking it for granted. I have been with my wife for almost 13 years now .. and alot of resentment had built up since we had our children and i learned that its just not worth keeping score of resentment. Someone had to change and that was me.

I also just wana thank you for your efforts .. and that your doing a great job in your relationship working to keep the peace and your household together .. and get what you need. Very well done!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ah, thanks MrNiceGuy! Wow, that made me feel so good, that I didn't even reply for a long time, I wanted to just re-read it. I really appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like cat and ears are just answering my posts so I don't feel sorry for myself for posting all alone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes I feel like I post too much and am a bore.

It's really educational for me to read the guys' threads too. I see myself in some of the LBs described. Seeing it described of someone else's W, and then realizing I do it too, is illuminating.

jayne (shhh), you're my favorite poster. No offense, guys. But for some reason, you just resonate with me and my issues and the way you post. Everyone else has great advice and insight, and I'm learning tons from everyone, but for some reason, I know I'm going to get something I need by reading your posts. Of course, LA is in a whole other stratosphere regarding helping us all, LOL. I wish she was a counselor here in my town.

I also love reading all the men's posts. It is so very valuable to see what the men really think, as opposed to what we think they think.

Awww .. no need to thank me .. I made a huge post when i first started posting when i was struggling with my wife in terms of feeling respected but i see now that i didnt really respect her either. We had lost touch on so many levels due to our prides and well .. my problems seem soo .. minor now compared to alot of what i read here so i have a hard time giving advice.

(hence the fact i just LURK (or troll as i USED to call it lol)

I also have a hard time putting together what i want to say sometimes too lol .. and sometimes when i do say stuff .. its not put out like i meant so it easily gets misinterpreted.. *shrugs* .. and that usually gets me in the dog house with wife. BUT thats all getting better .. we are going back to church again .. and my wife attends alpha and shes a bit umm .. upset and snaps at me easily casue her best friend is being deported back to Scotland (im in BC canada FYI) So i know its not totally my fault .. and i get left feeling resentful when she LB's at me or AO's at me ... i used to LB back at her in response .. but im learning to curve it .. and that was caused by reading your posts and now the His needs her needs book .. but now that i got that book .. i just noticed today the his needs her needs for parents!! *DOH!!! THATS prolly what i needed to buy ... o well .. next time lol

Sorry i dont mean to take up your thread with my issues. I am still young enough to be retrained lol to meet my wifes needs (and im just starting to figure it out she actually fileld the questionairs but got mad at me when she noticed my main need was SF saying that SF means more to me than she does .. which isnt so .. its just part of the package deal to me.

GAH .. there i go again .. ok .. ill stop lol .. anyhow keep postin and thanks again for your Open honesty, its very inspiring and im beginning to become addicted to this forum, more so than my gaming comunity forums .. lol .. >.<

Hi Jayne, while I'm waiting up for yur post...

"I've encouraged H to apply for jobs, to discuss options for both of us, etc. H knows, and he's said that me even mentioning such things is nagging to him. So I feel my only option is to shut up and bear it."

I like what you posted to mrs2 in regards to PORH. Does grin and bear it still seem like an advisable option? Especially since it's something that's really bothering you? It's okay with me if you do, I'm just asking.

"I sometimes manage to not think about it, and then we get along (but it may just be blissful ignorance while we are barreling toward a cliff). When I do think about it, I feel resentment."

Trace the resentment. Do you have a problem with SAHMs? Most people think that's really good for kids, to have an at-home parent. So at least in theory, it's okay, right?

But in practice, it does annoy you. Why? That wasn't your unspoken agreement, right? Are there expectations there?

"If it's ok to feel the resentment, is it ok to show the resentment? Or what?"

I like how Larry over on InRecovery describes The Wall of resentment. Another thread for me to look up, LOL. What about feeling annoyed and showing annoyance? Would that be okay?

"I can't picture a way of doing the Drive-by H&O without LBing, when he's said even the mention of it is nagging."

What's the nagging part. The part where he feels bad? Isn't that his to own? Jayne, I feel like I'm making tons of assumptions. I think unemployment and unemployment of a spouse is something we've all been through, so it feels really familiar. But please correct me where I'm painting with too broad of a brush, okay?

"Or would leaving him alone and trusting him to solve this problem on his own be the best approach?"

I don't see where this is mutually exclusive with the sharing the O&H part. I do like cat's suggestion to get the employers calling him. I don't see him resisting that. Or would he consider the part where you ask him first (POJA) to be LBing?

Hi ears, thanks for your post and your addy!

I'm reading your post and will give a more thoughtful reply later, but right away I just want to say - I don't have a problem with SAHM! But if this family is going to have one, *I* want to be it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He actually loves his work... and I actually love to cook, to plan meals, to follow up with kids' schoolwork... so we aren't optimizing our talents I think.

jayne, I was just reading Mulan's rant on GQII, and it got me mad! I think if you read that, about corporate America, that you might not feel quite so bad about your H beng home LOL.

That's interesting to hear you say that you'd rather be the SAH one. I like the kids and schoolwork part, but the rest, to be honest, feels like drudgery. Your kids are so lucky to have two parents who like being with them best <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL well I didn't say I wanted to be *with* the kids 24/7! H has more patience with them than I do. But I have more ... "involved" ... interactions with them. But they wear me out.

I saw someone else say their 5.y.o. twins gave the W backrubs and footrubs. How do you guys get your kids to do such things? It would just be a tickle fest in our house. At best.

Go here http://cdbaby.com/cd/mrheath04
and click on the song "Stinky Feet".

I was just putting the kids and kits to sleep. The kids just got pound kittens Tuesday. No one sleeps any more.

I'll go check out Mulan's thread, thanks.

Wow. Mulan really managed to put things into perspective for that panel - at least I hope so. I can't believe her H treats waitresses that same way, right in front of her!

Here's a thought, for anyone who thinks it's ok to do some "harmless" flirting with a waitress or any other woman whose job it is to deal with you -

I teach. Can you just imagine how inappropriate it would be for *me* to flirt with my "customers"? Grounds for dismissal.

Hey Jayne!
Just got a chance to check out your post. Sounds like you and your H are almost EXACTLY like me and my H. I am just so happy for you that you found this place b4 you ended up where I am. I feel like if you keep up what you are doing, things will work out. Seems to me that you both enjoy spending time with eachother but it is hard to find something that you will both truly enjoy? EN's are very similar to my situation also. I think I can learn alot from visiting you and your post. Keep up the good work
God bless
love always