I need some advice on how to respond in a certain situation, instead of AOing.

My mom's in town. She seems to be a pathological liar. People have told me things like "If she said the sky was blue I'd go to the window to check." When I catch her in a lie, I feel extremely angry. I don't know, maybe it's a trigger for me because I think her lies while I was growing up basically was gaslighting.

I worry about her influencing my kids. They are old enough now to realize when something is a lie. And I am raising them to absolutely NOT lie. The truth is a big huge deal to me.

For example: one visit, she thought I'd get mad if she adjusted the thermostat, so she told my kids to adjust it. (There's a couple of thermostats that don't work, if they are on even a little bit they run the heater full blast, so you shouldn't leave them on for a long time.) Then, in front of my kids, she acted all innocent and said "I didn't touch it! I don't know what you are talking about!"

Crazy-making - gaslighting - making me doubt myself, maybe *I* was the one who changed it... just like growing up, constantly kept off-balance, being told one thing when you KNOW it's the other thing...

So tonight over the tiniest little thing, she says one thing in one sentence and the very next sentence out of her mouth said the exact opposite.

What would be a good response? I can't always just walk away, because I want to mitigate any harmful effects she may have on the kids if they see her lie - or if they are being made to feel crazy.

Jayne, I've been thinking about the same thing. My H's mother is schizophrenic; she moved out of the house we had built for her, while we were out of town, and didn't tell us. She left everything she had ever owned that had anything to do with my H; as in, disowning him, for an alleged slight on our part. It just about killed him, because he's the oldest and practically raised his siblings, and took care of his mother until he was almost 30, and here she was, saying he was worthless and to be discarded. When we finally tracked her down, only 5 miles away in an apartment, she acted like nothing had ever happened! So now we only see her if she shows up at Christmas. So I've been working in my head what to say to her, when I see her Wednesday. I'm this.close to deciding to just say the truth from now on. Like, "I'm sorry, but you're a nutjob" kind of truth. So MrCat can get some closure.

When D17 was younger, we didn't talk about that stuff, that and what my stepmother did to tear apart our family. As she got older, we started talking about it in front of her, so she could absorb it on her own, and then I went back and asked her what she thought about what she had heard. She has taken it all remarkably well - at least I think she has, to have 2 crazy grandmothers out of 3.

But I have to admit that I'm a pragmatist and logical to a fault. I want my daughter to be logical, too, and she indeed has turned out to be very logical in her dealings. You may lose a bit of spontanteity and emotion in the process, but I think that logical people typically make the better decisions in life. So if you were to talk about her condition in a matter of fact way, the kids would just soak it up, accept it, and not question it. They just accept what they're given, they don't have all these huge emotional turmoils over things like adults do. So I'd have to say just talk about it like you would any other medical condition.

Cat, thanks for your advice! I think I need to take parenting lessons from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope my kids grow up to be like your D.

So, at age 5, can you give me a couple sentences for an example? Or should I just let them overhear H and I discussing it?

What do I do with my anger? One thing I've tried, is some techniques I read about for dealing with narcissistic parents. Like, put up an invisible wall; realize she may try to trigger me, but don't give her that power; don't let her get under my skin; etc.

I am so sorry to hear what your MIL did to hurt your H.

I wish that we could just stop all these messed up FOO issues with this generation. Unfortunately, I'm far from a perfect mom, and my kids will probably have their own issues with me.

I take some comfort from something in The Road Less Traveled, about how even a parent who makes mistakes can be ok, if it's obvious that the parent loves the child. If the parent loves enough to put in the effort trying to do the right thing, that can make up for mistakes. Love covers a whole host of mistakes, right?

Absolutely! It's the one thing I tell people over and over again - it doesn't matter what kind of house your kid grows up in, as long as he knows he is loved. That is ALL that matters. Of course, if you love your kid, you don't mess them up, at least hopefully not too much...

What we told D when she was 6 or 7 and we had to forbid her grandparents from picking her up from school (I was afraid stepmother would take her and move away just to spite me) was something like: "Grandma and Grandpa can't get you from school any more. Mommy and Daddy are having an argument with them, and until we fix it, it'll just be the 3 of us, ok?" She was fine with that, but I have to say she's an exceptionally mild person; never questioned, or cared about, much of anything. Like she has never searched for her Christmas presents; it just doesn't matter to her. So yours might be a little more insistent. In that case, I would just say, "it's a grownup problem, and we will fix it. I'll let you know just as soon as we fix it."

Kids are pretty accepting of that excuse. They know they just aren't privy to some things.

As for the anger, I was teased a lot in school, and the way I got around it was that one day I got to school, and it just clicked: Those kids teasing me are the miserable ones. Not me. They must be so incredibly sad or angry to have to tear someone else down, that it made me feel sorry for them. I'm SO glad I'm not them! It was just an instant epiphany and an instant shedding of all the emotions I'd had pent up over the years.

As for the next generation, I like to think that, just by being someone who 'thinks' about this kind of thing, we're un-tainting the waters, so to speak. Every one of us who turns things around is one more person who will have a ripple effect for the good. Just as you inspire me, I probably inspire someone else, like the kids who come to our house and I give them advice. Everyone we touch becomes a little bit smarter and makes the world a little better. Yeah?

Yes, you inspire me!!!

Thanks for the details on what is age-appropriate and how to foster H&O with kids.

For the anger, I will try to follow your example, and keep in mind that her behavior is probably a large result of HER foo issues... her insecurities and need to appear either the best person in the room or the poor victim. Just take care of my own actions, and let go of her actions. I seem to need a daily reminder!!!

In front of the kids, "I hear you choosing to lie by omission. I start to doubt my sanity when you do this. I choose not to raise my own children this way. I am asking you to respect my decision by not lying by omission in front of them."

I like what myschae said about when someone lies to you consistently, don't beleive anything they say without independednt confirmation. You can even warn the kids about this with her.

Thanks ears, for the example of what to say. That sounds good too. I've said something sort of along those lines, at least the part about choosing to raise my kids to tell the truth. Unfortunately, it was said more in an AO than in the calm but firm way you outline.

I really appreciate you guys giving me examples of what to say! It may sound silly, but that helps me soooo much, to have at least something to say figured out ahead of time.

I'm also starting to wonder if I may be DJing choosing the worst interpretation in the bunch, like you said.

How do I turn that around? I am afraid to appear vulnerable in front of her... in so many ways, I trust H much more, I can appear vulnerable in front of him.

You know what? I think what I don't want, is for her to make some "complimentary" compliment if I start acting more open and nice to her. How warped is that. It's like I said on another thread, I'm afraid to improve my behavior because I don't want to hear the "compliment".

Thanks you guys for bearing with me while I was all over the map. Things are still incredibly stressful, but at least I don't feel like I'm having panic attacks or anything. I wonder if it was the change in AD messing with me. Thanks for not disowning me when I was acting crazy!

"I'm also starting to wonder if I may be DJing choosing the worst interpretation in the bunch, like you said."

Like that she's choosing to gaslight you? You can ask her for her intent, it's good to help you separate it from the actions in your mind, and your H&O may well be what helps her heal. But she's the only one to know when she's ready, and she may not be honest with you about her intent.

As far as compliments, they are her opinion to own. Have you looked at why you feel a drop in core value when she compliments you? You said that you all of a sudden feel ike you hadn't been good enough before. Are you choosing to replace your self-esteem with other-esteem? Can you break that pattern with affirmations?

Have you read the Dance of Anger? They talk about resolving your FOO issues with your FOO so you don't keep dragging those issues into your relationships with your new family to solve them there. That sounds like a great idea if you've done the triage and your marriage is solid now to handle it. I think it is, but what do you think?

Why do I feel a drop in core value when she compliments me...
What I hear, is more of a criticism of past behavior, rather than praise for current behavior. More like a dig. Like me being nice to her is me becoming vulnerable, open to a dig from her. It feels safer to show no emotion around her, especially good emotions.

Breaking the pattern of replacing other-esteem with self-esteem...
How does that really work? Do I think of things that are good about myself, that I really believe? Or is it a fake-it-till-you-make-it thing, where I say things that are good whether or not I believe them?

It would be great to have a self-esteem that could withstand slings and arrows.

Yes I read the Dance of Anger many years ago. The main thing I remember is just the description of how other people may exhibit change-back behavior. I still have my copy of that book, I should dig it out (it's in a box under the bed) and re-read it.

Yes I think my marriage is fairly stable right now. Not perfect, but we are on the same team, not enemies, now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hm, interesting analogy. Even teammates can disagree: "Why didn't you pass me the ball! I was wide open!" "I'm team captain, not you!" But your teammate would never ever purposefully block your shot, or take a shot at the other team's basket. Everybody on the same team is working toward the same goal, no matter what are their different playing styles or positions.

Ok, I'll pull out the Dance of Anger.

"What I hear, is more of a criticism of past behavior, rather than praise for current behavior. More like a dig."

Got it. Thanks for clairying. Would it be honest to listen and repeat with your filter, "I hear that you are disapponted in what I have done up to now. Is that what you meant?"

I've got to admit, jayne, this is new territory for me. I JUST TODAY chose H&O with my Dad about my filter, how I hear his compliments with a criticism about my stepmother as backhanded compliments, and that it makes me uncomfortable. You know that, "she's great at this BUT it makes it hard to live with her."

He kept on criticizing her, which is his choice, and I kept up with my H&O until he ended the call. I felt good, like I'm finally deciding not to enable him and pretend that oh, she is so awful. I can validate his feelings without agreeing that he's a victim. "That does sound painful, but did you have to do that?"

It's really interesting re-reading your account of your H&O with your dad. I'd forgotten about that. When I first read it, I was feeling happy and proud for you, and yet I've been feeling guilty for doing something pretty similar. My mom was trying to tell me something about H, and I was just not participating. I've been feeling guilty because I didn't respond with the connectedness that I think she was wanting.

I'm considering an online IC for help with depression, anxiety, stress, relationship skills... I prefer doing it online for flexibility and convenience in scheduling, but mainly for anonymity... I know I know, but this is such a small town... Anybody have any thoughts on that?

I didn't even know there was such a thing as online IC. Sounds like a great idea, if you can trust the person.

Jayne, I hear you, about not wanting to connect to someone that has a pattern of using it against you later. I did start talking more with my stepfaather, but then he twisted a situation to make my sister look like a disrespectful teenager, which she isn't, so I have that wall back up with him specifically. One woman described her boundaries as blinds that she could open to let someone in, but then close again as needed.

I have a lot of investment in finding ways to be connected with my H and kids, but I'm not to the point where I'm committed to consistently putting that effort into extended family. I do hope that in time I will get there. I felt the consequence of that choice last year when my MiL passed. We weren't as close with at that time as I wanted, and I was working to accept that instead of working to create the connection with her.

Online IC sounds like a great concept. There are some awesome folks who offer phone counseling, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, she has a habit of using it against me later. Also, and I forgot to mention this, what she was wanting to do was complain about H. I was uncomfortable, and didn't know how to respond, and so just didn't. I've often found with her my best response is a non-response, flat emotion, etc.

A healthier response would probably be some H&O like what you did. I'm not there yet, with her. Not that I'm dishonest, I'm just not open and I'm not sure I should be. I do wory about the consequences, like you mention - the potential for regret, if I wait until it's too late.

Thanks for the input for the online IC. I found a site, and sent some email detailing my sitch and asking if they thought they could help in such a sitch. She answered back in less than 12 hours, and seemed very compassionate and was willing to talk to me quite a bit before I even signed up for any payments. I think I'm going to sign up.

Jayne, you really got me thinking about the part where someone uses information against you later. My H would do that, and I don't consider it an option I'm willing to look at to be less than H&O with him. So I've gotten a lot more honest with my friends when something bothers me, or my Dad like I did last week. Because then if my H threatens to repeat something, like to the kids, it just reinforces in my mind how that H&O is NOT a weapon at all, but an opportunity to understand each other's perspectives better. Most of the time I could honestly say, "I'd be interested to hear you share that."

I find it really fascinating that we got so twisted up over the years that even our PERSEPCTIVES and OPINIONS could be used as weapons against us.

Jayne,

I think The_Tall_Man from here did email counseling with Al Turtle...EO, lemme know if it's not email...that was my assumption. ***edit****

I think it's a great idea, btw.

LA

Thanks LA. I think I already have the info that was edited out, and I will look into it. I think I'll go read some of The_Tall_Man's posts too.

EO, I wonder would you mind elaborating a bit more on what you are thinking about using H&O as a weapon, and your response? I agree, it's twisted when even our perspectives and opinions can be used against us. Are you talking about <the weapon part> H threatening to share with someone else, info that you shared with him in H&O? The weapon I'm thinking of is more like when you share some weakness or fault, like in an apology, and later that person brings up that weakness or fault to you.

So the business with my mom and guilt gets more convoluted... now H and I are arguing over my (not) phoning her to wish her a Happy New year... and I feel guilty for not being able to phone her.

I was just reading something I wrote Dec. 31, 2005. Well here it is two years and one day later, and again we are arguing. Last time, it was a child care issue. This time, it’s about a simple long distance phone call. We are at his folk’s house for several days for New Year’s. Every year I call my mom at midnight her time, no matter where I am – in fact, she talked about that when she visited over Christmas, that she could always count on me to call her at midnight.

So here we are at his folk’s house, and my cell phone battery is dead so I asked H if I could use his folk’s telephone. He said “Why, you never let anyone use YOUR phone!” That is NOT true. I let anyone use my CELL PHONE, not my landline, because I have a calling plan for the cell phone but not the landline. So his statement is a lie, a twisting of the facts. Anyway I went to look for the cell phone charger to use it instead. H came down and snapped at me for looking in his computer bag and told me to put everything back – which I did – and gave me the charger which he’d put in another bag.

But when I tried to call, it still didn’t work because I couldn’t get a signal… so I went upstairs to get a better signal, and it STILL didn’t work because I was roaming and the network didn’t have service with my network or something – my service doesn’t work here. Argh!

When I came back downstairs H asked if I called and I said no, I couldn’t get service. He told me just to use his parents’ phone, and I said no I didn’t want to bother anyone. He said “Well you are already bothering everyone!” ???? I was trying to be as unobtrusive as possible!

I am seriously considering a New Year’s resolution to NOT spend next year’s New Year’s Eve with him! Is there an acceptable way to do that? Every single year it’s something. Starting with him telling me he’ll propose before the end of the year, and me waiting and waiting and waiting… until the final countdown… This was in 1999 and he actually said he’d propose before the end of the century… so then he says he wasn’t counting 2000 as the first year of the century, that the end of the century is Dec. 31, 2000, not Dec. 31, 1999… so again, the whole miserable scene plays itself out again a year later…

It’s as if he engineers a fight on New Year's Eve. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I just remembered, my step-father would usually have a huge AO on major holidays and celebrations also.

I don't *think* this was me, not this time. I really was trying to not complain about anything, etc. I even tried to think ahead of time to remind myself of possible pitfalls and better responses.

I can so relate. Holidays are almost always disasters in our family. The one thing I keep thinking, though, is that, since you're at his parents', He's even more at edge because he's got all his FOO issues to deal with on top of everything else. Kids are always wanting to either please their parents, or prove themselves in front of their parents, or keep from antagonizing their parents...no matter what age they are. I'd bet that you'd find, if you really dissect it, that he acts differently around your parents than he does around his own, just as you do.

If you can learn a little more about that, it may help you to keep from being manipulated into reacting in ways you don't want.

Something we started, when my dad was still around and doing holidays with his 'new' family was so much h3ll, was we started going away for Christmas, skiing, just to have an excuse not to have to be with them. It helped a lot.

LA, I had assumed that Al Turtle was phone counseling, but it may well have been by email.

Jayne, I see what you mean, that I took that off onto a tangent. I am hoping that in speaking to your mom about your challenges, sharing your remorse, that you are feeling healing about it. So that then when she brings it up, you can remind her that you are working on it, and feel good about your progress. Instead of letting her define where you are on that. But that would be really hard, pressing on the sore spot like that.

I'm so sorry to hear about the discord last night. Can you have a happy day, anyway? Have you asked him what his motivation was? Maybe he was mad that you were putting special effort into your relationship with your mom, prioritizing that over time with him or his concern for the cords getting messed up? I'm grasping at straws here, it'd be great to get some clarity on that.

Since there is a pattern here of dissappointing New Years' Eves, how could you two break out of that rut? Maybe plan together to make it a bonding time?

Happy New Year!

Jayne,

I meant to post to you the other day that I really admired several of your posts on GQ regarding all the board wars that appear to be happening a lot lately. I think one of the threads you posted to might have been one of the ones that was removed.

I wanted to tell you that I admire the way that you are both radically honest and respectful at the same time when you post.

Your post to BA was very gracious and I believe good advice to him. All the disention that seems to be going on right now... I don't know... I read all those threads... sometimes I consider posting a comment or my opinion and then I just think... nah it will just make it worse. Most of the threads wind up getting locked and I accept that most of the time they need to be because they wind up non productive. Even though I do believe that there are some people who would really like to have a respectful discussion about why certain post are upsetting or seem counterproductive.

My belief is that on MB we get a chance to practice the very skills that Dr.Harley talks about to improve a M. At least that is what I am working on.

My fear (and it is really high right now) is that MLS's thread will get t/d'd because I posted there. I hope that doesn't happen because I think she really needs help. I don't know if I can help or not but I am willing to at least try to help.

How are things with you and your H since the New Year's eve issue?

Jilly