Thanks you guys... I'm working right now and so I just skimmed over the posts, I can't afford to get emotional right now. But I see lots of great advice, and I will come back later tonight and work on a plan. Right now I'm thinking of looking for info to print out.

cat, I missed your post at first, because it looks like we posted at about the same time and I wasn't going back to re-read what I'd written. Thanks for pointing it out to me, that's also something I want to think about when I'm not working.

(((Jayneygirl)))

Just wanted you to know I am thinking of you.

Jilly

Sorry if this is not proper, but will you guys go over to KLD's thread in QGII? She just got some bad news.

Update:

Yesterday was tense. I intervened a couple times between H and kids. It felt like H was resentful but holding it in.

(Sorry y'all, I don't have the energy to rephrase to get rid of DJ's, I'm just gonna say it the way I'm thinking it right now...)

This is very different from what I was trying to do before. Before, when I would step in, I felt guilty... and I waited as long as possible... for all the reasons we were actually talking about right when this happened - fathers father, and that looks different from mothers mothering, and kids need both... but, just to confirm, with the way things were starting to go, it's ok if I step in now? Is that what you think?

Anyway, I tried to do it unobtrusively- quiet tone of voice, trying to not be obvious to the kids that I was second-guessing dad... does that make sense?

So the rest of yesterday was tense. Need I say no SF???

Today was a lot better. H got the kids ready for school with everyone happy and calm; then we both picked them up early to take "their" kittens to the vet for shots and pre-neuter check-up. No incidents at all. Everything was calm, kids were relatively well-behaved. When we got home, H spent time playing with DS6a instead of working on the computer like he would usually do. He played a card game over and over - last night, DS6a asked me to, and H said it was bedtime, and I said it wouldn't hurt to play for 10 minutes. (Before, I would've felt guilty for over-riding him like that - I feel it's warranted for me to step up to the plate more right now though.... comments?) So I played with him far 10-15 minutes last night, and felt rushed.. Tonight H played game after game, and was the one saying let's play another. It was really good.

Also, once DS6a was playing too rough and was hitting H. I scolded him for hitting. Then I asked H if he was still agreeing to what we discussed - no ysical-phay iscipline-day (pig-latin for physical discipline, since it was in front of DS6a) and H said yes. I asked if we could tell DS6a and he said we should tell both and I agreed, but said I wanted to tell ^a cus he was there and had been hitting. H said ok. So I told DS6a that I know we've sometimes used spanking and pinching for discipline, but daddy and I talked and decided that we wouldn't do that any more; that now that DS's are 6 we would make it totally against the rules for anybody to hit or pinch no matter how mad they get. That means that if time-outs don't work, they will start losing toys or go to bed. I asked DS6a if he liked that and he said yes. And he smiled.

This whole time 6b was downstairs watching tv. He usually is the one upstairs talking to us, he almost never watches tv but he's got a cold and may have been tired. So I don't think he felt left out. I'll make sure he isn't left out so much two nights in a row.

So ... what do y'all think?

H and I haven't discussed this any more, other than what I just said. I was gonna work out a plan, probably printing out information... somehow I don't feel it's necessary any more... but would that be just letting it go, so it would happen again?

I feel weird about doing an about-face with the intervening between H and kids. Am I being hypocritical? I don't plan on continuing to do it just to enforce my will, I hope I'm only doing it for now because things were getting out of hand...?

And you guys prolly want me to address some of the things you've mentioned... I'll try, when I can... I was exhausted and had a headache all day yesterday, I just wasn't up to doing much thinking about this.

Sounds like it worked. May be a rocky start, but you got through it and got good results, so that's good. I think that asking H was good, especially for him, so it doesn't look like it's just you being controlling. I wouldn't mess with the plan for now; see how it goes for a month or two, and just be vigilant with everyone. It takes a while to change habits, including some ups and downs, so you all have a bit of habit-changing to go through.

The tenseness is to be expected, no one likes to be the one having to change. But if you continue to make sure life at home is more upbeat, kind of like praise over punishment, it will start to look like a better idea to him.

FWIW, I was only spanked once. I remember it, but mainly because I was embarrassed. But it was the 'talks' I got that devastated me. It was the talks that guided me, that I remembered, that taught me that I needed to earn my parents' respect. Kids want nothing as much as for their parents' to respect them and be proud of them.

The extra 15 minutes...I'm not sure how I feel about that. Since I wasn't there, I shouldn't say, I guess. But on first impression, it felt a little like it might have embarrassed your H in front of D6a. Maybe it wasn't done that way. Maybe I would have phrased it "I didn't get to play (fake pouting)! Daddy, would you mind if I got just a few minutes of playing with D6a?" You and H would know you were questioning his decision, but H would worry less that D6a would see you questioning his authority. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I'm proud of you for sticking to it!

Jayne, I'm glad that things are coming so well with the not doing physical discipline. Have you all discussed what you do want to you use instead? So that no one's left in the position of trying to discipline with insufficient tools?

I do look forward to when you can POJA together what your unified policies are ahead of time. How does that sound when things settle down?

I hear you about how unnatural it is deciding on one-person rule in the meantime. What about asking specifically if he could give you two weeks to be the "decider." Would something like that give you some breathing room to get back on your feet? Some time to work out the rules together?

I thought once we worked out the parameters/boundaries, that I'd be comfortable with my H's parenting. Turns out that he sometimes lets the rules we agree upon slide when he's drinking. Like the violent R rated movie for the girls the other night. I talked to my IC about that, and he said that it's okay in those cases for me to respectfully set the kids straight in that case. And then talk to H when he's sober, to see if we lost some enthusiasm about that agreement and need to come up with a new or modified one.

Is there a factor like alcohol in your home that makes your H less enthusiastic about your agreements? Or is it just that you all didn't have parameters set up yet?

Jayney,

That is fantastic news and I am so proud of you for having the courage to share with DH how much this way of disciplining was bothering you. WAY TO GO!!

I also think it is great that you shared it with DS6a because I think the timing of the sharing with him and how you phrased it was fabulous. You didn't say... Mommy and Daddy were horrible... you said now that you're six we will no longer be doing that... totally age appropriate. Then to tie in what other disciplines that will occur when time out doesn't work... great teaching of boundary violations and enforcement.

Sharing when you did, when DS6a was hitting was really wise in my mind. Stating your truth that you as parents are choosing to NO longer use hitting as punishment. Wow, Jayney, you did GREAT. I am so impressed.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I don't think this is hypocritcal. I believe it would be dishonest if you didn't do anything when this is an issue that is really important to you. I think you stepping in right now helps bring awareness to your DH and I think you can do it in a non threatining non DJ way. How do you feel about what happened when you stepped in?

I really think you did great Jayney. I know that I get scared sometimes when it comes to bringing a big issue forth with DH especially if it related to the kids. I feel scared when I think my DH will think that I am criticizing him as a parent. When we have differences of opinion about parenting I want to be respectful of him, the same way I want him to be respectful of me if he wants to bring my attention to some issue with my parenting. And he has before... and I do better when he brings it to me in a respectful way where he shares why his belief about it may be different. This gives me a chance to look at his perspective in a more open minded way.

If it comes across as you are being a bad parent then I feel like I am more apt to become defensive.

Telling the truth was brave and honest... took courage because you shared where you were afraid, owned the fear and shared ANYWAY. I really don't think we can ask much more from ourselves... can we?

Gold star from me Jayneygirl... gold star.

Jilly

Thanks y'all...

I feel so depressed right now... I think my tendency would be to avoid posting about my stuff until this all blows over... hide behind humor...

I'll try not to do that. I'm worn out though... how do y'all muster the strength to face the things youu must face?

I feel like the whole world knows how to be except me, knows how to be happy except me...

Re. asking H if I can be the decider for a coupla weeks... sounds like what I should do, but I don't wanna be the one making the decisions. I feel like a failure.

Hogwash! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You show so much strength, there's no way you can be called a failure. Think about the billions of people on this earth who never strive to become better, who hurt others, who never learn...you are better than all of them! You're here! That places you leagues ahead of people who only care about their own pleasure. Be proud of yourself, k?

Hon, there's no time limits here. LA pointed out to me once that I can choose not to follow my core value on an issue. She asked me to just be honest about it, to own my decision. This is really helping me to go forward from awareness instead of denial. One of my struggles is weight. I can say to myself, no judgement or shame, I own this decision to eat these extra girl scout cookies, today. I am confident that one day soon, I will have the tools I need to not eat these extra cookies. I am grateful that I can own this decision, so that I know that this is within my power to change when I'm ready. That positive self-talk really helps me.

And I can do that with the parenting issues, too, because I know that these issues WILL repeat until I get it down the way I'd like.

Jayne, I don't think we only make changes from being fed-up with our poor choices. I believe that we can also make changes from our fullness and strength. But I think you're awesome no matter where you are, today.

Thanks for sharing your presence with us.

(((Jayne)))

Are you taking on more than what is reasonable to take on for one day? In Stsny's Love Without Hurt, he asks, "What can you do right now to improve things just a little bit?" Like Jilly said, I also think you are more than doing that. But I'd admire the heck outta ya, even if you took a day or two off instead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Because like LA says, we are Human Beings, not Human Doings.

Jayne, I actually literally take 'days off' from fixing myself. Sometimes I just say, you know what, I really don't feel like being the good person today. It's just going to be a wash, and tomorrow when I wake up I'll decide if I'll start back up; if not, I'll take another day off.

Kind of like a diet; if you fall off the wagon, just start up again the next day.

Speaking of diets, ears, I've been doing the Alli pills, which help break down the fat you ingest, and I've lost 25 pounds. They have absolutely no effect on your body, nervousness, any of that stuff, except for the fact that they help break down fat so that you don't keep as much; it says you lose about 1 1/2 pounds for every 1 pound you would have lost otherwise without the pills. Of course, the flip side is that you have to be more careful about the fat you do take in, or else you'll make more trips to the bathroom; but then, that's the good thing too because it makes you learn how to make better food choices.

Cat, thanks for the gentle nudge. I do have a bottle of those at home, I don't remember why I stopped taking them. I liked that they didn't make me jittery at all and were so effective. I liked, too that I could lose weight while not staying hungry. I haven't made peace with staying hungry, so I like how this solution meets me where I am! That's why I like exercise so much, too, because I lose weight without stressing so much about what I eat.

Jayne, i've been meaning to ask you, do you think your H's behavior was change back behavior? Is this worse than what usually goes on?

Would it help to remind your H to ask or negotiate with you for what he wants instead of using these other means? My H gets SO ANGRY when I say something like this, but to me it's standing up for my marriage to acknowledge out loud when H chooses not to use those alternatives to the AOs.

When I stepped up the O&H, things got much worse before they got better. Cat, I'm so glad that isn't happening for you in your case! Maybe your H knows how good he has it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Is his behavior change-back behavior?...

Probably not... I can't think of anything I've been working on changing for the better... I haven't been trying to do much on the relationship lately, things are too hectic at work. I'm still trying to do the right things like no LBs and respecting him, etc., but no big change there.

It may be related to both of us feeling a lot of work-related stress... we are in agreement that we want to look for jobs elsewhere, since his telecommuting is coming to an end and I'm not happy in my job.

ears, thanks for the links. For the lessons children learn, I want to make sure I'm not missing something important. Here is the main point I got from it, and something I could use to show H:

Was that what you were thinking of?

Also, thanks for reminding me of your posts about your incident. Hmm. I think one difference between us is I don't have a well-defined boundary like you set up. My FOO was pretty violent, and maybe that's why? I'm not sure what I should do with this... I feel uncomfortable setting a boundary and taking any drastic action if it is crossed. Is that messed up? Am I minimizing?

I hear you that the boundary is not clear to you, today. It sounds like what happened the other day was NOT okay with you, by the way that you were ashamed to talk about it. Did I get that right? What would be comfortable to talk about? What would be what you want the kids to see when you disagree? Would that help you narrow it down? Or do you think that this is more circumstantial, that it's okay in certain circumstances? I didn't find any peace of mind with that, jayne, but this is about you and finding how you thrive best.

What I was getting at with the infidelity article was about how we teach our kids to cover up what we don't want others to see, instead of identifying the behavior we want to eliminate, and then eliminating it. Showing them that if someone doesn't know something, that it is as if it didn't happen. Maybe you don't do that. But I'm glad for what you did get out of it!

Well, things are somewhat better but it still needs work. I wouldn't call this POJA. But I don't think you can POJA things like this can you? Things that may be, or at least may be on the verge of, abusive?

I am still stepping in when I hear H being what I consider to be unfair. Like, at least a couple times it has sounded to me like H was punishing DS6a without getting the full story. I can hear how frustrated DS6a feels, and how he thinks H won't be fair or listen to his side. So I step in and get the story, and issue the punishment I feel is fair.

For example, the other night, they had locked themselves into our bedroom to avoid getting ready for bed. H told them to open the door. They were giggling and pushing and shoving, and when the door finally opened H saw DS6a first and sent him to time out. DS6a was crying and saying he didn't do anything, so I stepped in and asked DS6a to tell me what happened. He said it was DS6b (I may just call them A and B for short?) who was keeping the door locked, and he (A) was trying to get past him to unlock it. I asked B if that was true and he said yes. I told B to go tell daddy and he did. H came in and apologized to A, which was good. But I think he doesn't realize how often that happens.

I need help figuring what I can do that would be fair, and that wouldn't be punishing B because of H's favoritism.

It doesn't help that we are all in various stages of a nasty cold and it looks like today is H's turn at being the sickest.

Jayney,

Maybe it is a POJA in progress? I dunno about whether you call it a POJA if abuse is involved. I think you are doing the right thing though by continuing to bring awareness about your beliefs about why it is abusive and why you do not want this kind of discipline/parenting for your DS's. I think this is honest... for you to share this.

Do you have a theory about why DH appears to favor B over A or is harder on A than B? I can see how A would feel very confused if it seems like Daddy doesn't listen to him and B gets a lot more slack... and a lot less blame.

What is DH's reaction when you try to get both sides of the boys' stories? I don't necessarily see your stepping in as a DJ to DH's parenting... maybe more of showing in a respectful way (modeling?) the procedure you would like to see happen when the boys are up to mischief. I dunno what do you think?

Okay so when this happened... when B told Daddy what happened... B was bringing reality. Then DH apologized to A. Perhaps this needs to happen more consitently so that DH's own awareness increases about the frequency in which his automatic response (if this tends to be the case) is to assume that A is the one that is the ring leader.

This may be difficult because you don't want it to appear that you are favoring A... and I don't think you are at all. I think you are frustrated for A because it appears like DH sides with B and blames A sort of automatically. I know you don't want B to be in the hot seat all the time either. Sounds to me like you want fairness and equality for A and B. Is this close?

I am sorry to hear that you are all not feeling well... I think that also wears our patience down a bit too. I know I am less patient and more grouchy... when I am sick. When the whole family is sick... well it harder on everyone because no one really feels like doing much of anything and then as parents we are responsible for the sick little ones too. Cut yourself a little slack until you all are feeling a bit better.

Hang in there. I think you are doing great.

Jilly

jayne, I'm hesistant to discuss this with you, because I may address these things a little differently than others might. I think the others here on your thread have perspectives that better apply to your situation. So I ask you to consider the source. These are just thoughts, not advice.


You've taken the physical discipline off of the table altogether. Is unfair on the verge of abusive? Dr. Harley defines abusive as attempting to gain at the other's expense. Would your husband say that he is doing this, that his *intent* is attempting to gain a closer bond to DSb at DSa's expense? Would he say that he makes decisions with the limited information that he has?

I don't treat my kids the same, either. I expect DD11 to be more responsible in breaking up fights before they get to the point that they want our intervention. Even though developmentally, DD6 is also capable of breaking up the fighting, too, and even does this sometimes. My H and DD11 bring this up to me. They do sound as hurt and angry as if I had been abusive to both of them. I apologize, but they are still both sullen and angry. Thank you for the reminder to withold judgment until I get the whole story. Listen and repeat is really helping me with this!


What about stopping here and waiting to issue the punishment you feel is fair until you've spoken to your H?

Have you ever read BTE's recommendation, 123 Magic? The idea is to ask for what you want, and give the child the opportunity to stop the unwanted behavior before disciplining them. Very similar to progressive boundary enforcements. I thought that you were the one who had suggested Positive Discipline at one point? Same approach. Truly, my kids rarely need discipline outside of calm, gentle reminders anymore. But then, I've never had twin 6 year old boys, so maybe that's not a realistic expectation for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jayne, the Villagers exercise is going to shed totally new light on how to approach parenting as well. I don't think that I should spoil it and give it away right now, but just believe me, it will. Actually, your parenting does seem very influenced by this already. Would your H be willing to participate? I didn't even think of asking mine, but now I will!



DSb sharing his O&H! How cool!



Is this making you angry? Like in the Villager exercise, can you ask your H in your mind, why does this make you angry? What is the message that your anger is trying to tell you?



Would you be cool with encouraging DS6a to be O&H? What about listening and repeating and thoughtfully requesting in the moment, "Would you please hold on a moment before you get to the punishment part? I hear you say DS6a was responsible for this. My moms' intuition tells me it was both of them. Would you be enthusiastic about taking a moment now so we can get clarity?" Would this be sufficient?

Like jilly, I am super-proud of you, hon!

(((jayne)))

Ok, I've been avoiding my own thread long enough. Here goes.

I'm going to start in reverse chronological order, i.e. trying to answer the most recent questions first. That feels easier to me, that way I don't have to figure out how far back to start, and I won't put off answering the more recent ones while answering ones that are old.

ears, I'm always happy to hear from you! I value your input.


Yes I've taken it off the table... definitely not POJA. And I admit that I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do or not. It goes against what I've been "preaching" and trying to follow... but I feel I needed to do so. I don't know if it was me trying to force the father of my kids to father like I mother. I think it was more than that... I try to be respectful of his different parenting. I felt this crossed a line.

Boundary maybe. Maybe I should re-state this as a boundary. Back to that in a moment...

Is H's intent to gain at DSa's expense? I don't think so, at least not consciously. I think he would say that he is working with the info he has. I just think he isn't trying to gather the info... I ask the kids. I haven't seen him doing much of that. I *think* he gets better at doing it when he sees me doing it.

For example, when they wouldn't unlock the door, and I asked, and B admitted. I think you also commented on how good that was for B. Yes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And so there was the dilemma, how do you temper the punishment of a child who honestly owned up to their wrong-doing? I don't want to give him negative feedback for honesty... but I don't want him to think he can get off scot-free (meaning, can do it again) just because he says "oops, sorry". How do you handle such things?

And, another thing about that incident... it isn't often that one of them will just volunteer that info! If questioned they are usually honest though. Kinda hard to lie if you are a twin I suppose...

I hear what you're saying about how you can't treat all kids the same. But with twins it comes a lot closer... they are at the exact same stage developmentally so there isn't an obvious choice of who should be held more accountable. Yes each one is unique and we stress that. They have their own personalities. But, as a matter of fact, as soon as you try to pigeon-hole them: "This one's the shy one, this one's the outgoing one" etc., they switch. I've found it better to let them be however they want to be; at various times the shy one, the thoughtful one, etc. So I don't treat one consistently different as the shy one, for example. Each and every situation is different. I comfort whichever one's hurting; I encourage whichever one's insecure. And over-all I do try to make it average out to equal treatment, because one doesn't consistently need something different than the other.

The biggest difference between A and B is A has always been more attached to me, and B was more attached to H, or to my mom, whichever one was around... and they kept leaving on him. So I would try to make up for it by paying extra attention to B... and then A would feel like I was abandoning him in favor of B, since I was "his" parent. It could have been balanced out by H making a special effort with A but I don't see that happening, except when I encourage it.


I had tried that, and I had escalated my efforts to do so. I felt ignored, belittled. (trying to make "I" statements) I felt pain at hearing A's hopelessness.

I haven't read 123 Magic. It sounds good. Yes I like the idea of positive parenting. I don't know much about kids but I think I was a pretty good dog owner. My kids should be so lucky for me to treat them like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (You know, they sell doggie beds that are more comfy than the mats kids take naps on at school!) For dogs the idea is, you want to leave them with a feeling of success... you don't want to rule them through fear. Even if it takes work, you try to catch them at doing what you want, and you praise them for that. That's what I'd like to do.

Calm gentle reminders? They wouldn't even hear it, when they are wrapped up in their own little world of battling each other. Seriously... the decibel level alone...

I doubt H would be willing to participate in the Villagers exercise. He still hasn't completed the LBQ or ENQ and eventually admitted he didn't want to, so it wouldn't be POJA.

Yes it makes me angry. I'll think about that. Step two of the villagers was not what I expected? I'm still absorbing that...


I'll try to keep that in mind. I don't know how it would work... with the twins, things happen very quickly and very loudly... It seems about 80% of the time when I say "Stop that, someone's gonna get hurt" then in less than 3 seconds someone IS hurt... so my acting slower seems like the wrong way to go, if that makes sense... I'm not exaggerating the 3 seconds. It's usually less than 1 second but I thought 3 seconds sounded more believable... sometimes I don't even finish my sentence...

It's been almost a year I think since I've called 911. But on average we've called 911 about every 6 months... or if not us, then the school calls us... fortunately sometimes there's witnesses, like walking to the library, so they don't think I beat my kids. But these kids are high-energy. We've had a compression fracture, 3 stitches to the forehead, several things I thought were concussions and two were confirmed by the dr, two the dr. said were just temper tantrums... two busted lips (one DS and me) from one DS throwing a shoe in the car... *sigh* Nothing in almost a year though...

And these aren't because we aren't watching them. Some of them happened at school, like one time I was called because A fell off the top of the slide and had a seizure (that was one of the concussions) and another time B poked a stick in A's eye. A's other concussion was when we were walking to the library, and he had his arms inside his shirt telling me "Look I have no arms!" and he tripped and fell on the sidewalk, with no arms to catch himself. A woman behind us saw it and ran inside to call 911.

Do girls not do these things? Or do singles not do these things?