It's hard to do this without setting myself up as judge over H's parenting.
How's this:

I want to promote in the kids a sense that they can confide in us and trust us to deal with them fairly. I feel it is very important to do this now while we have a chance, before they become teenagers. One part of this is getting both sides of the story, and making sure the kids feel heard, and feel like they were treated fairly (even if they don't like the punishment). I am not comfortable with allowing a punishment to be administered when I hear one of the kids crying that his side wasn't heard. I am not comfortable with standing by and letting that happen. When I hear one of the kids saying he isn't being listened to or he didn't do what he's being punished for, my boundary is that I will step in to ask him what happened. I want him to feel he can trust me, come to me, and tell me the truth.

If I get information that indicates he is being punished unfairly, I think it would be harmful to him for me to allow the injustice to continue. For that reason I want to say I will alter the punishment in such a case. Maybe it would be better to discuss it with H, and if I think that is possible in the situation, I will try to do that.

How does that sound?

Hi Jilly,


I think it's due in large part to B being more attached to H from the start and A being more attached to me. I think H resents it when I step in, but grudgingly accepts it when my instincts are verified like when one of them confesses. I think H is more likely the next time to follow my example. So yes, I do think I am trying to model a more appropriate response. But I'm not sure about my over-ruling H's punishment...


Yes I'd like to see this happen more consistently. I'm not sure of how to do this better.


Yes, exactly. I want them both to trust us to deal with them fairly, which means sometimes one will be punished, sometimes the other. One thing I've noticed, and my mom and their teachers have also pointed out to me (I think they were afraid I didn't know, but I did)- sometimes B will do things to get A in trouble. Like, B will provoke A, and when A reacts, B will run and tell.

When one is being punished for something like hitting, and he says "Well the other one kicked me first" I say "Well you shouldn't have hit back, you should have told us. Since you didn't, and you chose to hit, you are in trouble for hitting. If you had told, the other one would be in trouble."

But is this encouraging them to be tattletales, to run and tell over every little thing rather than learning how to settle things for themselves?

Thanks for your comments and your encouragement.

Jayne, this is exactly what I meant. This has lots of information behind it, how one parent will identify with one kid while the other identifies with the other; and how the less 'aware' parent will not treat the one he doesn't identify with as fairly; or how he favors the other one, whether he realizes it or not.

I think I'd keep hold of this information, maybe even do some research on it, and at an opportune time, bring it up to H. I'm sure he doesn't really want to do that, and likely isn't aware he is. If you can find a way to bring it to his attention, without judging, he will probably stop. I fear for how it will affect your sons, especially A, if you don't find a way to even the equation.

Jayne, wow, I thought my brothers were accident prone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No, I don't think girls do that stuff LOL

I agree with you that physical punishment can be a boundary. Really, what could someone offer a parent to make the other one enthusiastic about it? Is it a boundary issue for you?

Jayne, I hope someone else chimes in about feeling comfortable making decisions with different amounts of information. That's tough one! Have you all talked through this much? If nothing else, it's an annoying habit. Have you thoughtfully requested that he get more information? But how would he know, if he already feels like he had enough info?

Thanks about the visual about the calm gentle reminders. I kind of meant, once you got them to stop. They might not always need punishment at that point, if no one is hurt.

I like what you said about the boundary.

OIC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

cat- that's a bit of a long story. I will try to give more details after dinner tonight.

Jayney,

I was thinking about this... the more attached piece and I was thinking about teachers and students and the attachements we form. I am sure since the dawn of teaching people have said that some student is the "teacher's pet". How much truth is there to that statement? Hmmm... well there might be some truth to it in all honesty. Let's change the word favorite to favor... because that is more accurate. It may not be the case that one or more student is the teacher's pet of favorite... but it may be true that a teacher naturally favors (and I don't mean shows favoritism here either... that isn't what I am getting at really either) what I mean by favor is this definition of favor "friendly or well-disposed regard; goodwill:"

Once many years ago, I took a course on multicultural education. The professor of the course shared with us that she felt closest to the people who were most like her... she went on to delineate it for us so we could glean her meaning more clearly. She said something along the lines of... I feel closet to women... who are married, mothers, whose profession is college professor... who belief system is similar, whose background is similar... etc. She shared that the more commonalities she shared with a person the more she would "favor" this person, and form a deeper attachment with these women. Not that she disliked others who were different from her but that she just was by nature attracted to those who shared the most in common with her.

It seems natural that we would as children or as adults choose our friends this way... but when we think of adults doing this in regard to children and specifically our own children it become a bit disconcerting if we begin to have a sliver of wonder... could I or my spouse love A more than B or B more than A? I don't believe it really has anything to do with loving one more than the other.

You don't love A or B more or less than the other... anymore than I love DD more or less than I love DS. My love for them both is abundant. Do I favor one more than the other... no not really. I don't show favoritism to one over the other... that said I do find their are traits in each of them that I favor.

There are things about DS that I favor... and things about DD that I favor. Why? I don't know if I will be able to quantify this in a way that will make other people's "sense" but I will give it a go anyhow.My kids are opposites in many ways, and alike in other ways. My son is older, more reserved, holds his feelings in... funny, sensitive... in many ways he is like me. My daughter is bubbley, wears her feelings on her sleeve, can be very stubborn... affectionate... they both have things about them that deeply bond them to me. They both also have qualties in them that drive me batty.

When my mood is even... I doubt it seems that I favor either over the other. When my mood is not even...depending on the mood, the trigger, the thing that is bothering me, the situation, the players, etc... it may appear or it may be the case that I come down harder on one than the other.

It may be more the case that our kids have learned to read us... and in certain situations one of them has learned how to read us better.

Is it possible not so much that DH favors B over A but more a case of B... knows how to "read" DH's signals better therefore it appears B is being favored when in fact what might really be going on is that because B may know how to read Daddy's moods better... B knows how to adjust his own behavior to suit Daddy's mood?

Which brings me back to the classroom scenario... the students who may appear to be favored... might be that students A, B, and C seem favored not because the teacher likes them more than students D, E, and F, but more of a case of students A,B, and C know how to read the teacher's cues better. They know when to get out of the way. They know when to stop pushing a boundary, sit down, be quiet and get busy, while students D, E,and F... might have missed the cues or don't yet know how to read those cues so they don't know how to get out of the way. So in this scenario the "favor" has nothing to do with liking or being more attached to one but rather of one being more able to read our own cues.

It may be that B just by nature reads Daddy's cues better... I dunno.
(I am gonna share that this is where I stopped my post last night... didn't have time to finish and so if it seems disconnected from this point after, I thought I would share that this post was done in two sittings.)

So I reread what I wrote and continuing a bit more with that theme... I will share that I have shared with both kids ways to "read" daddy's cues better. I would wager to guess that DH has probably schooled the kids in how to "read" the mama too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I don't know if this is healthy or not. Perhaps we should just be letting them figure this out on there own. I really don't know. My belief in sharing with them is not to DJ their daddy, but in helping them to know when daddy is AOing that mostly it comes from fear or love or a combination of both.

Recently, DH was very upset with DSS14 because he was walking to and from school with friends, meeting up with them on a route that we did not know he was taking, and that he was not coming directly home from school. DH was very angry... shared he felt DSS was being sneaky and betraying our trust. DH's anger level was high. He was AOing and DSS was crying.

Jayney, most of the time I don't step in. This time I did step in. Because I could hear my DH's fear... from love about DSS's safety. The area where he was meeting friends to walk, is not really safe. DH was DJing DSS's judgement, etc. I believed (based on past experience of stepping in) that DH's anger would then be directed toward me. My belief was correct... He began to AO and DJ me as well. I was prepared for this to happen, so I had the hopper on my head. In went the noise... the DJ's... this used to be very difficult for me, the hopper (filtering) technique but when I was able to filter, what I could here DH saying was that he was scared for DSS's safety, and also that he believed DSS was being deceptive by not asking permission to not come directly home from school.

So I said to DSS what I hear your dad saying is that he is concerned for your safety and he is upset that you did not ask permission or share that you were choosing to walk a different route and not come directly home from school which has been the expectation that we had for him. As I shared DH calmed down and DSS stopped crying. (My belief and I own that it is mine, might not be DSS's and might not apply to his thinking, is that when DH AO's to the point where DSS breaks down in tears and keeps crying, that DSS shuts down and is no longer really processing the information, he is just waiting for his dad to stop yelling. I believe this, because this has been my own experience when DH yells at me. DH has made HUGE strides in not AOing as often, as big, or as long as he once did. When this happened with DH and I... I would shut down, no longer be able to process, or share. Would do whatever I could do to try to smooth it over... so he would STOP. This was how I coped but I held huge resentment about it. Because I didn't feel safe to share and then I was upset that I wasn't being heard, even though I was choosing to withhold, because I didn't know another way. I have learned more and am better able by filtering to not completely disengage. I have learned to table stuff when it gets to a level I am not comfortable with, and instead of just holding onto it, I now come back to it after a cooling off period. I do thinks this helps me. Anyway... my assessment is that DSS is still coping in the smoothing over... but then not coming back to it.)

When we were able to bring the fear of why we had concerns about the area he was walking with his friends in... and the issue of why not telling us where he was, knowing that we believed he was home was not okay with us. The discussion then went to boundaries we have with DSS, boundary violations, enforcements, amends, consequences...etc. Then to teaching DSS how to own his own power of choice... and how to negotiate (not manipulate cause sometimes the two can get really muddied for me.) the walking issue.

I believe that once DSS could hear that his Dad's stuff was coming from fear and from a deep love then he was better able to understand why.

And this is where I am thinking about where some of the sharing of how to "read" daddy... might have been leading more to in the past me teaching them how to smooth over... rather than how to filter which I think at least DSS is probably old enough to begin doing.

I am trying to think of a respectful way to teach A and even B how to read daddy's cues... in a healthy way, because in life a skill we need to have is reading other people's cues. What do you think?



I am thinking about this.... perhaps a conversation, sharing your fear about what you perceive happening, and then see where that conversation goes so that you can get a better read on if DH is aware that you perceive that he seems more attached to B then A or sides more often with B then A and how you feel about this. I dunno, what do you think? I think it is an important conversation but I admit that it is one I would have fear having... so I don't know for sure how to approach it.

Jayney, I think this happens often with kids... whether it be siblings or peers. I don't believe your boys are alone on this front. I am not trying to discount how you may feel about this, just sharing that I see it with my own kids and my students as well. I am not saying I respect that kind of behavior when I see it... cause I don't like it when kids do this... but I am aware it happens, and I try to investigate to get to the bottom of stuff so I can find the truth.

It sounds to me like you do try to investigate the situation when things happen with the boys. In my law class... one of the most important things they taught us about suspensions and expulsions of students is that you have to afford each student involved due process... which basically means that you give each person privately a chance to tell their version of the events. Sounds like you want due process for the boys and that is the protocol that you follow... getting each one's side of the story. Is there a way that you can respectfully share that with DH? Maybe something like, "I want to fair when the boys have done something. I believe in order for me to be fair and objective that I need to speak with each of the boys seperately and give them each a chance to tell me their version of the events. After I hear from both of them then I will speak to them together about it and go from there." Do you think this sounds like something DH might be willing to do also?

Does the other one also receive a consequence for kicking? I like that you reinforce to the one who hit after being kicked that if he would have chosen not to hit back, to report when the other is behaving in a way that is not an acceptable practice in your home, then they would not have been punished for reporting.

I hear you on the tattling piece... because that can become cumbersome as well... if they are tattling on every little thing. Part of it is an age thing I think. As kids go through the grades they begin to learn (well hopefully they are learning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> to differentiate the kinds of things that should always be reported versus the kinds of things they can sort out themselves.) You might try a short and firm list of "must" report behaviors such as hitting that the boys know there is an expectation within the family for them to report on these. As they are growing up when they report on things you think they are capable of handling themselves, you can begin to share some conflict resolution strategies with them, so that they can begin to problem solve some of the stuff on their own. It is definitely a process and I still learning how to work with kids on reporting and problem solving.

When they have an issue... smaller one that you believe they are ready to deal with without you... begin to model the process of how to work it out... tell them that you are showing them what you expect for them to do when they have this issue. Say A takes B toy or vice versa and won't give it back... then you step in and maybe problem solve like this..

Say, "A, B is very upset that you took his toy and won't give it back. I know that you can remember a time when B took something of yours and you wanted it and he wouldn't give it back. How did that make you feel? What did you want to happen then? Okay, how can we work this out so that you can play with this toy?" Then ask B if there is some time during the day that he would be willing to let A play with that toy." If B is agreeable to this, then figure out and set a time. Then say, "Okay, A, this is B's toy and he has agreed to let you play with it in an hour. At 3:00 you will have a turn to play with this toy. Right now you are to give the toy back to B, and then you will have your turn to play with it later."

Then the next time this happens, the fighting over a toy or whatever... gently urge them to remember how you had solved that problem last time. Perhaps they will come up with a slightly different variation of what to do. But once you begin to model how to solve conflicts, over time they will be empowered to solve their own stuff. And this frees you up to handle the must reports.

Jayney, these are just some ideas... if you think they will be helpful great. I am in no way an expert on any of this stuff. I am sharing from my experiences of working with school aged kids day to day.

Jilly

I plumb forgot that I was going to come back and comment on this! Thatnks for the bump Jilly.


I think people have misunderstood. I'm not saying necessarily that the adults favor one kid over the other- I'm saying the kids have chosen. It isn't that uncommon with twins. A guy at my work has twins, a boy and a girl, and he says that ever since they were born, the girl definitely preferred him and the boy definitely preferred his W.

When my kids were born, I had complications and was unable to care for them for a long time. For that reason alone, I've worried about attachment issues. But here's a perfect illustration of why I say A is more attached to me: after having not seen them for a long time, when I was able to see them and pick them up, I was talking to my mom and A started wiggling at the sound of my voice. I picked them both up, and A just grabbed onto my neck and would not let go. I really think he recognized my voice. And ever since then, he's just plain preferred me over anyone else.

B was more easy-going, which often meant if I was holding A then the other person would hold B. But it isn't just that- B has been less willing to let me hold him. He wanted H, not me. Really. When you have two crying babies, you don't prefer one over the other, you just want them to stop crying and you decide who will hold which one just based on what will stop the crying!

When my mom or H would leave, B was heartbroken; A really couldn't care.

As far as which one I favor, I favor the hurting one, the one who needs me. Sometimes it's A, sometimes it's B.

I'm gonna submit this, and read your post more carefully, Jilly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Jilly, thanks for the comments and for giving me your perspective.


I don't know... this doesn't seem to fit, at first glance. But then I'm not an expert on reading people, and H is much worse than I am, so I never even considered that our kids may be able to "read" us... that's outside my experience, so I didn't think of it, ya know? I'll watch for it, see what happens.

Thanks for sharing the circumstances of your stepping in. I think I would have stepped in also. I'm glad to hear you think there are some instances where it's warranted. (Is that what I'm hearing?)


Hard to teach a skill you don't have... maybe I'm DJing myself, maybe I can do this somewhat. It feels to me like I can *sense* such things, like reading them but on a subconscious level, so I'm not sure I'd be able to verbalize the cues...


Yeah, I know... what I was getting at, is that A gets in trouble sometimes because he's done something bad, and A gets in trouble sometimes because B sets him up. Meaning, it usually goes one way, not the other. And so A can feel rather oppressed if you don't know to watch for B setting him up. And H doesn't watch for B doing that.

My statement is that B sometimes pulls the wool over H's eyes. I admit maybe A pulls the wool over my eyes, but I watch for it so hopefully that helps me have a better perspective.


Yes, I try to do that. I'd like H to do that. I've talked to him about it, and he's said that he thinks he does that, and he probably thinks I'm DJing or at least AHing when I bring it up any more. Showing him by example seems to work the best. When things are calm enough, I try to talk to him away from the kids' hearing, if I have any suggestions or requests to handle things differently. That isn't always possible.

Thanks for the feedback on tattling, and for the examples you gave of how you've handled things. Also, thanks for asking this:


I am not sure. I'd like to say yes, but I couldn't say for sure... Probably sometimes but not always. I will watch for that.

Thanks for all the feedback and the suggestions.

Jayney,

Yes, you are hearing me correctly... I am saying that sometimes I think there are times when *I* believe that stepping in is warranted. However, just because I believe that doesn't make it true. I dunno, that is just where my thinking about it right now and I am also okay with my DH stepping in if he feels it is warranted. I believe as long as it done respectfully, that it is okay with me.

Jayney, let me see if I can clarify this point for you better from my POV. I believe we all learn to read cues. As a child, a young adult, a wife, a mother, a friend, a sister, a daughter, etc... can you get a sense about someone else's mood? Might not be that you know exactly what it is that is bothering them or whatever it is... but if your DH is angry, sad, irritated, frustrated etc. do you recognize the signals of that behavior in him? Or in others you are in relationships with? I believe we all have this skill.

Now, this doesn't mean that we are mind readers or can side step conversations etc. to get to the heart of matters, just that in life we learn to infer from cues. Sorta like instinct. If it was a late night, you were alone in a very unfamilar area, and you started to get a sense that this was not a safe place for you to be... that is your inner voice, your gut instinct that is telling you information that you need to know.

I don't necessarily see cues as either a negative or postive thing... just a way information is received.

Does that help?

Yes, a lot of it may be subconscious, but for example, if I sense that my DH is really angry about something, I may act on an internal cue that tells me to wait, give him some space, not to push him about discussing it right then. This is what I mean by reading cues, and sometimes getting out of the way. This is what I meant when I said that maybe B naturally is more intuitively connected to reading cues from Daddy. I know that I am better able to read some people's cues then others and sometimes I am way off on some cues.

Maybe A is better attuned to reading your cues. I dunno. What do you believe about this?

Thank you for clarifying this part... I think I hear you saying that you feel that B is more identified with DH and maybe A is more identified with you and what you would like is for both A and B to be more equally identified with both of you and that you would like the same from DH and yourself with the boys. Is this what you mean?

What is AHing? I am not familar with this term. Okay, so you are saying that showing by example seems to work the best. Do you feel upset or like you are parenting your DH if you are leading by example or modeling? Do you feel like modeling the way you like it done is a DJ to DH?

I agree that it is not always possible to have discussion in private, especially if there are times when stepping in seems the appropriate thing to do. I am still not clear if DH is upset or angry when you do step in. What is his reaction or response to the stepping in?

Just something I wondered.... something I am working on my own awareness about.

How have the last couple of days been?

Thinking of you.
Jilly

wow! what great learning and understanding and great strides in understanding human emotions from adults! Jill, you are doing great in your own personal, inner strength. . .

your examples are very influential and very illustrative. . . you must be very proud of yourself to get the results of all your hard work on yourself. .

wiftty

Hi Jilly, thanks for the clarifications.


Could be, I'll try to remember to watch for this. One thing I've noticed is that A really knows how to pull my heartstrings (the most pitiful heartbroken cry, that tears me up and I feel compelled to do whatever it takes to make things right) and B who seems to have gotten into a habit of negative attention, so he acts annoying when he wants attention, instead of doing actions that we would praise him for. So A is going for the sympathy vote and B is getting negative attention. I want to turn things around so they get positive attention, affirmations for good behavior. I am trying to catch them being good so I can affirm that behavior.


"AHing" ... sorry, I haven't seen it used, but I meant Annoying Habits.

I feel like modeling the behavior is not a DJ. When I step in or even when I try to talk to him even when the kids can't hear, he reacts like I am annoying him.

The last few days have been better, things have returned to "normal", our present normal which is a lot better than last year's normal.

In response to Jilly's asking about my reaction to something on cat's thread:

**********spoiler warning for cat**********
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Ok folks, sorry if this seems like extreme precautions. These were common on another forum I used to be on. I'm a survivor of CSA and it was standard practice to warn if there were any potential triggers in a post. I got used to such care, and for example don't even like to type the word [email]r@pe...[/email] or even [email]ther@pist...[/email] but that seems silly on this forum.

There are situations where coercion would be like [email]r@pe.[/email] Like between a child and an adult - even if the child doesn't put up a fight, if they reluctantly give in... or even if they consent... it's still [email]r@pe.[/email] Not only because a child lacks the emotional maturity to make such a decision, but also because of the power imbalance. IMO that power imbalance could happen between two adults in certain sitches too. Cases where one person really feels like it would be impossible to say no... probably cat just weighed her options and made the choice based on what outcome she was willing to have.

Why did I gloss over it? Initial knee-jerk reaction: I like cat and didn't want to think of that happening to her, so I blocked it. Didn't look at it; shoved it in the corner, on the periphery of view. After pulling it out and thinking about it, I didn't want to comment because I wouldn't want to project more on the situation than it holds for cat.

I'm glad that others were able to comment more reasonably on it.

Wifty,

Thank you... I appreciate the compliment. I wanted to tell you that I am working on learning how to accept compliments as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Looking for the middle ground with that and knowing that it is okay for me to be proud of myself... being proud isn't arrogance. The opposite would be to dismiss the compliment and say something like, "Oh but I have so much more work to do on myself." Which isn't untrue, but where it harms me in accepting what I have accomplished so far.

So I am proud of the growth I am making, am grateful that YOU saw it. And I am excited about learning to use my adult voice (not authorative or child) the side by side equal adult voice.

I was stuck in when others are angry, expressing anger that it was about ME. A lot of the time their anger has nothing to do with ME. It has to do with them, and anger is usually signal for me now about fear. I can now filter anger so much better than I could in the past. And I realize that sometimes grown-ups have temper tantrums and I am not afraid when a child has one, and I am in no real danger if my DH AO's.

And I learned that someone may even be really mad at me and that doesn't mean they don't love me. What a false belief I held there... and I am surprised in some ways that it took me that long to understand that because it wasn't like I never got mad or angry with the people I love. I did and I still do. Anger is a normal human emotion.

Turning my own anger inward... which led to building HUGE resentments, passive aggressive behavior, withdrawing, and withholding was just as destructive as AOing. Learning to table stuff when emotions are running really high, has greatly reduced my stress level in this regard. Holding myself to an expectation of going back to it, instead of stuffing it is reasonable and healthy.

And learning to communicate better is beneficial to all aspects of my life. Knowing and accepting other people's communication styles are different (not better or worse) is part of why I believe that I am now ready to make the career move into administration. Being able to effectively communicate with others is definitely a requirement to being an effective administrator.

I use the filtering technique at work too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When we get angry parents, when they are in a meeting AOing at another faculty member or myself, having the skill of not taking it personally, has helped a lot. I am able to remain calm, and I am able to not disengage.

Using *I* statements with parents, (knowing that there anger most often is based in fear and love for their child) works often to de-escalate. I can say to the angry parent, "I hear you saying that you are very upset right now about Johnny being suspended from school for punching another student. I think I am hearing you say that you feel the school was not justified in suspending Johnny, because you feel that Johnny was provoked by the other student, is this correct?" Then I might say something like, "I can understand that you are upset, as a parent I do not like the idea of my child being suspended from school."

Then I will go on to explain to the parents that the ed. code is very specific about what we are required to do in the situation of physical fighting. We often hear parents state their beliefs that they tell there kids that if another student hits them that they have their parents permission to hit back, defend themselves etc.

Further explaining that the school cannot hold this same belief. Then a scenario maybe, something like, "What if Johnny did hit first, then the other student believing he has permission to defend himself beats the crud out of Johnny and Johnny is hurt badly." If we hold the policy that as long as the student who hits second is not accountable for their own actions, then we would not be able to enforce a consequence toward the student who beat up Johnny, because Johnny hit first. The faculty has a responsibility to make the school a safe place for all kids. The laws (ed. code) are established to make schools safe.

Does this always work? Nah... sometimes the parent remains angry, states they believe the school is "picking" on their child, will make DJ's toward faculty members etc. When a parent chooses to continue to AO, this is when we say to the parent, I want to hear what you have to say, but right now I need to reschedule this meeting for a later date. Buying time, is also a skill I am learning to use.

Just now, DSS14 mom came by to pick him up for a fundraising event for the eighth grade trip to Washington DC and New York City. DSS14's mom shared with us that DSS14 was suppposed to be selling tickets as part of the fundraising effort. She shared that she had repeatedly asked DSS to work on selling some of the tickets (she teaches at the same school he attends and is also one of the faculty advisors/ chaperones of this trip.

She shared with us that DSS made the statement to her several weeks ago that he doesn't fundraise. Unfortunately she didn't communicate any of this earlier to us regarding that he was supposed to be selling tickets, although she did ask DSS numerous times to relay that information to us. DSS's response was..."Well, I keep forgetting." DH promptly called him on... excuses.

DSS often uses the excuse of forgetting. He forgets to feed the dogs. After this occured a few too many times, DH told DSS, that he cannot eat his own dinner, until he feeds the dogs, which I thought was an appropriate and reasonable expectation for him. In other words, DSS doesn't forget to feed himself when he is hungry, and the dogs are hungry and cannot feed themselves. His own hunger, is his reminder to feed the dogs. Not feeding the dogs is no more okay then us not feeding him. His dad shared with him to write himself lists, or post its to remind himself of things he is to do.

The conversation with DSS, his mom, my DH, and I was calm. There were no AO's. Saying I forgot is not true ownership. True ownership would look like to me, "I knew I was to sell tickets and I didn't want to do it. I chose not to communicate this to DH or JJ, because I didn't want them to hold me accountable for getting those tickets sold. I chose to blame my mom for not contacting DH and JJ. I chose to make an excuse of forgetting (which may also be true... he may have forgotten but that is not an acceptable behavior either) and I believed that my mom would get those tickets sold.

His amends piece would look something like this. I apologize to my mom for holding her responsible for my choice not to communicate. I will do xy and z to for my mom, who sold the tickets I was supposed to sell. I understand that I will lose priveledge X until I have worked off the $$$ that my mom earned on my behalf by doing X. I will physically write down requests that my mom has for me in regards to communication.

This is what I plan to commuicate with DSS when he returns from the fundraiser. I also plan to share with him how his ownnership and his amends are what helps him reestablish trust. I believe DSS14 is capable. I do not believe we would be doing him any favors by enabling him through excusing him with the "I forgot".

I want to empower my kids with ownership... so they learn that they are capable.

And I do believe the more I am able to use my adult voice to communicate, to understand that differences in communication styles are not better or worse, just different, the more growth I will continue to make. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So again Wifty, thanks for sharing that you noticed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And Jayney, I apologize for the minor threadjack here.

Jilly

Jayney,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about this here on your thread.

As a victim of CSA your experience is different. Your sharing is equally important.

I respect you for sharing the extraordinary care that is used on the other forum. Makes sense to me that they would have such precautions.

I definitely agree that there are different situtations where coercion exists. The examples you provide are excellent. A child has no power in this situation and no choice.

A woman being raped also doesn't have choice or power.

I will share a couple of examples from my own teenage years and you tell me what you think.

When I was 16 I had a brief relationship with a man that was 24. Legally just the age would most likely define this as statuatory rape. I liked this man but did not want to have sex with him. I was also not as naive as to not understand that there was an expectation on his part for sex. Was I coerced into having sex with this man. Maybe, he was considerably older than I was... which would most likely put him in a posistion of power over me.

I might have even said no... but did... was persuaded to change my mind. Did he rape me? I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't know what would have happened if I was able then to say no and mean it... hold to that boundary. I caved.

The other example was when I was 17 with a high school teacher I was taking an independent study course with. I knew that this man (in his late 30's maybe early 40's) was attracted to me. I fed off that attention and for awhile nothing really happened other than me having this information and liking this attention. I had learned how to get "this" kind of attention from males. So one day I came into the empty classroom (no other students or faculty present except this teacher) and he said to me, "I would really like to kiss you." I was terrified by this. I don't know if he was grooming me. I told him that I had to go. He did not ever again say another thing like that to me, and from then on I went to his room dressed like a nun, and looking as unattractive as I could. I believe if I had been willing to take that step with him, sex would have followed. And I think this was definitely an abuse of power on his part.

I did not report him. I did not tell my parents about this until many years later. I was scared to tell them.

And from what I recall about Cat's situation, she married Mr.Cat when she was very young, and has expressed that in some ways he became another father or authority figure to her.

It may very well be that when Cat and Mr.Cat were first married Mr.Cat and Cat developed the pattern of Mr.Cat expecting SF on demand and as a way for Cat to redeem herself... to be forgiven. Do I think that was healthy for Cat? Nope. And living with this pattern, these dance steps now for 30 years, I also know that they may be deeply engrained and hard to break.

I am not sure if it coercion that is occuring with the Cats. It might be. I definitely see Mr.Cat's choice to have this expectation as a selfish demand. By refusing to talk to her until she "caves" is an abuse of power on his part I think. But Cat can not control his expectations. She can only choose her half in the steps. I cannot imagine that when she does have SF with Mr.Cat when she does not want to that it cause her to be upset with both herself and Mr.Cat. I would imagine that a huge withdrawal occurs from her lovebank when this happens.

When we do something that we really do not want to do for our partner, can lead to resentment... and also withdrawals.

Cat has no control over Mr.Cat's choices, but she does have contol over hers. I think she owns her fear about telling Mr.Cat that she is going to sleep in the other room or that she is not going to have SF with him to smooth things over. If this had been my experience, my step, I too would have fear about changing it. We as humans fear the unknown... and she cannot know the outcome. She can predict the outcome if she caves. The safety comes in knowing... but it is a false safety.

I don't think Mr.Cat is going to physically attack Cat if she refuses to have SF with him. He might get mad and AO though... I dunno. He can be mad and she can still be safe. If she doesn't feel safe she can leave the house as Ears suggested.

And this is tied also to reading cues. I think the foot tapping, the refusing to speak to Cat etc. are cues that tell Cat that Mr.Cat is angry and expects to be provided with SF. I think Cat knows and reads these cues from Mr.Cat loud and clear.

I think what Cat is struggling with now is that she is now keenly aware of this dance step and wants to change it. Right now I think she is weighing her choice to change the dance step and let the outcome go which is scary, with caving and having a predictable outcome.

It may take her some time before she can get to consistently making the choice not to provide SF for the smooth over. It may be that she will be able to make the choice some of the time and some of the time she will reach back for the old dance step.

I see Cat as an equal in her M... even if Mr.Cat may not see her as that yet.

I see Cat as brave, courageous, and ready to take back her own power, able to see where she has handed it over in the past.

Jayney your knee jerk reaction is reasonable based on your experiences. And we fear for others when we trigger to our own fears... the higher the trigger the more we fear. I get that.

Jayney, please don't DJ your own reaction as being unreasonable... you were honest and shared your fear. What if Mr.Cat was forcing himself on Cat? Would you believe that your response was more reasonable then?

I felt upset when I read her post too. My reaction was slightly different based on my own experience but that doesn't make yours or my reaction any less valid or reasonable.

(((Jayneygirl)))

Jilly

Hey Jayney,

I just wanted to tell you something cool I discovered about the post reminder feature... once you reply to the posts that you send to your post reminder on your My Home, the reminder itself deletes.

That is really good news so now I can click as I read and then know which ones, in order I want to come back to. I really really like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

I guess one thing that might make a little more sense to our situation is that for our whole marriage, I've never felt allowed to say I didn't want SF, unless I had a 'reason' for not doing it; i.e., throwing up sick. Maybe it's just my upbringing where the guy always controlled the situation, maybe it's my lack of self esteem, maybe it was that he was my 'father figure'...whatever, it's just been fairly non-negotiable in my life. If H was in the mood, we pretty much did it, unless there was a good reason not to.

So, like everything else in my marriage, I've been in the position of going along, wondering if I had the right to even speak about what I was thinking or feeling.

Truth is, I never really thought of it that much before, until I started questioning why I've been so unhappy, and coming to places like this and learning what marriages are supposed to be like, listening to people who actually don't put up with this stuff. I guess I just needed to learn that there was a better way out there. I'll get there. With y'all's help.

{{{{{ cat }}}}}

I'm glad you are learning that you DO have the right to speak about what you are feeling.

I can see how thinking you didn't have that right would make you unhappy. Even if you resigned yourself to it, and thought that was just how things are... it would be quite depressing.

I guess I didn't realize the extent of it until your recent post. You seem like an awesome mom, and you and DD have such a great relationship. I hope she doesn't think your M is the model she should follow. But we tend to do that. If she sees you just assuming you have to cater to your H, that's the model she knows.

Next time you are aware of a boundary issue, and are trying to muster the strength to speak up... do it for your DD.

Dear discovered emotional needs, now what person, I'm new at this site and your post seemed similar to my situation. I too have been aggressively trying to meet his needs of affection, admiration and sexual fulfilment. Nothing is working and after having read your post and some of the replies now I know why. At least I think I do. I've been "doing" all of these things and "expecting" something in return, then I get angry or I get into that "oh it's hopeless state" and then I return to doing nothing and leaving him alone. How do I get myself out of this cycle? I know I need patience but it's wearing me down.

Hi jannyk,

Welcome to the MB board! I'm honored that you find my posts helpful. I recognize what you are saying - "doing" the right things and "expecting" some reward and becoming bitter when I don't get the results I want, as fast as I want them.

In fact, I still do that... thanks for the reminder, I was on the verge of falling into that again.

It doesn't help to just say "You need patience." You know you need patience; but how do you get it? Where does it come from? That's the million dollar question.

It doesn't come right away. (I'm reminded of the "prayer", "Lord give me patience and give it to me NOW!") There are some articles on this site that describe the reasoning behind all this work. Ideas like the love bank, with withdrawals and deposits, love busters, emotional needs... but also ideas like throwing stones in a pond: you keep throwing them in but you don't see them, they seem to just disappear; but eventually they pile up enough so you can see them and eventually they form a bridge you can walk on.

Another idea here is that you don't do these things to get something in return. You do them because it's the right thing to do, it's the way you want to live; you do them for yourself.

Another: (I hope this isn't information overload!) You can't change the other person. You can only change yourself. So that's what you work on, and you let go of their response. Again, you do it because it's the way YOU want to live.

Hopefully, eventually you will see the stones break the surface of the water... but that can't be your motivation, or you WILL get frustrated. Again, do it for you.

Those are some ideas. I can link to those articles if you can't find them. Keep reading them and reminding yourself.

Come here and post. Tell us what's going on, ask questions, read what others suggest. When you find yourself losing patience, come here and tell us. Let us help you get back on track. (Like your question reminded me to get back on track!)

Please come back and let us know some more about yourself, 'kay?