Oh, I don't know, I hope that someone who is having an affair DOES FEEL BAD. As they SHOULD. Feeling bad is the first step in the right direction. Many waywards come here and feel very good about being bad when they should be FEELING BAD. Using weasel words and doublespeak is exactly how they have deluded themselves into believing their affair is pretty and beautiful and I don't think more of the same is helpful.

If calling a "CAD" a cad is "sadism" then I happily plead guilty. Rather, I think the sadism comes from BEING A CAD, rather than saying the word. It is a little backwards to condemn the WORD instead of the action, IMO.

I guess I am guilty of bashing the BIL in the thread in question and I did it for one reason -

BB has a trumped up fantacy going on in her head where the BIL is some kind of hero, and oh so much better than her husband.

She needs to replace that fantasy with the reality that any BIL who has had a life long crush on his brothers wife and spends a lot of time in their company is a creep.

Why in good heavens name would we want to help in her delusion by not bashing him?

We are trying to break fantasies here, aren't we?

The BS has to keep their mouths shut, but we don't.

Are you suggesting that there's no middle ground between "weasel words and double speak" and bashing?


Sadism means that you derive pleasure from the pain of others. If making someone else cringe in pain causes you pleasure, then I call you a sadist. It doesn't matter to me what the form of the sadistic behavior comes in - name calling, "bashing", having affairs, etc. Though one could argue that many (probably most) people who have affairs aren't necessarily sadists -- they derive no pleasure from their spouses pain - their pleasure comes from the addiction(affair). Their spouse's pain is incidental to their feelings of entitlement - not a central driving feature of their behavior.

If someone truly uses affairs as a way to derive sadistic pleasure from enjoying watching their spouse squirm (and I think we've seen at least one or two of those) then those people are sociopaths and probably should be avoided at all costs.

So, Melody, calling someone a "cad" might not be sadism. It all depends on how much you enjoy knowing that it's hurting another person -- does the pain excite you, enrich you or otherwise incent you to keep doing it? I have no idea how you feel about it or whether or not you consider yourself a sadist. You have to decide that for yourself.

Mys

Hmmmm...

and the two veteran posters who have agreed with my POV on this thread... I wonder what their "game" and "hidden adenda" is... ????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

you are MEAN, weaver! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And you are exactly right. All this politically correct doublespeak where we are not supposed to call something by its proper name is very dysfunctional. ugh!

I was going to jump in here - as a survivor of abuse...

But, I am having a hard time following.


Really just wanted to say ~

Mel, I Love the term CAD - it sounds so cutely yucky

OT: my neighbor is pregnant, and her H constantly referrs to the baby in her tum tum as ~

how's my critter doin' today ?

So cutely Texan !!!

Hi weaver,

I suppose "bashing" is a subjective term. Personally, I didn't consider your posts (with the exception of calling the BIL a "polecat") to be bashing. You asked some pointed questions... but you didn't rail on and on about the guy. Big difference, IMO.

One more thing, Melody Lane.

You have often described yourself as "happy" to say things that might hurt other people, etc, in the name of "telling the truth." My impression of you is that you do hope that you hurt WS's and make them feel bad and would be happy if they did.

So I do try to avoid you because I don't like that.

Just to be clear, I a not calling or "labeling" you a sadist - you can do that your own self if you feel you want to or need to. I just don't like your style and I'm pretty sure you don't like mine. To be even clearer, most of the time that I post on threads you participate in, I'm not addressing you or anything you said (not always, sometimes I do ... and I'm usually quickly reminded as to why I shouldn't do that - the resulting exchange is almost always a pointless waste of time).

I don't think you and I will ever agree because we have very different world views and communication styles. Fortunately, there's room for that on this board.

Mys

Edited for grammar. My goodness, I should wake up before I start posting in the morning.

Often there is not, but that is a completely subjective area.




I think this misses the point of what really causes "pain." Does the BEHAVIOR cause the pain or does the WORD used to describe the behavior cause the pain? I vote for the former. The WORD would not be painful if the ACTION were not.

Sadism is defined by CRUELTY and calling a CAD a CAD is not "cruel," it is honest. A person should feel BAD about being a CAD. It is not CRUEL to bring them to that realization, but COMPASSIONATE.

On the other hand, ENABLING a fogged out fantasy-bound mind set IS CRUEL because it keeps that person enmeshed in their sick little fantasy. I think it is much more appropriate to equate ENABLING with sadism. Enabling keeps people sick.

It is their BEHAVIOR that causes the PAIN, not facing the truth about who they are.

Here is what I have observed ...

for the most part, the OP is the MAIN symbol of the adultery

the adultery is the source of previously unimagined pain and humiliation

there are other symbols too, of course

but none so direct as the OP

we call the adultery cars names (F-mobile)
we call the adultery locations names (HO-tell)
we call the adultery sex names (rutting in the mud)

the adultery OP is THE symbol of the insult
THE dagger it's self

that is the reason
it is giving the pain/humiliation/rage a name

usually an insulting name
to make the BS feel less small
to make the BS feel less threatened
to make the ADULTERY look ridiculous and not romantic

name-calling the ADULTERY symbols does serve a very important purpose

it does

the names the waywards call each other are no less insulting "lover" "soulmate" "friend"

the OP bashing....

it it mature? probably not
it it expected? probably
is it therapeutic? probably somewhere on the timeline
can it shock the wayward into some right-minded thinking? sometimes
can it drive a wayward deeper into fantasy-land? perhaps

do not forget my main point

[b] [color:"red"]OP bashing is symbol bashing [/color] .... like burning the flag of the enemy

It is probably not the same as yours. Unlike yourself, they do not just come here to do drive-by nitpicking when they themselves are not in recovery. They ARE in recovery.

Yes, because they should feel bad. That is a GOOD THING. People should feel very bad about doing bad things. That is a healthy reaction. But that is not "hurtful." That is HELPFUL. Feeling bad about being bad is the first step towards recovery.

When people feel GOOD about being bad, they have no motivation to change. When people remain engaged in their own delusions they do not change. You view that as HURTFUL, I view that as HELPFUL.

When I came here I was in very deep chit on many different levels, and I could no longer tell where reality began.

I just could not see things clearly. My ex was a con artist and even my friends defended him. In reality he is a very nasty person who was destroying me. Now I played a big part in that but knew I was going downhill fast.

It helped me to start to see what part of me already knew, but I needed validation that I was not a bad person, just caught up in a bad situation.

I remember WAT (who was not the only one) but who was the most vocal calling my ex pond scum, a hypocrite, an idiot...

And as Mel and Suzette said, I felt so bad about myself and blamed myself entirely I needed to hear others bash him.

Maybe it was wrong to need him to be the bad guy in order to break my addiction to him, but it helped me. It really did.

When your family is telling you someone is a jerk you don't listen, but when an entire board reiterates the very same sentiments, you start to listen. And that is what is important, that you start to listen.

I don't feel anybody wants to be in an affair, they just need help getting out of it. And if we can help them change their mind about the OP and it helps them to break their addiction, then why not do it?

And maybe not all OP's are creeps, I am sure they are not, but while they are scr*wing somebody's spouse they certainly are not admirable, and shouldn't be admired especially by the WS.

I tried to be the OP's friend but my WH began bashing her....saying she's ugly, boring and a worse liar than him who probably already had some other guy she's cheating with.

It seems that "bashing" could be a perspective finely defined. My WH spoke the truth but I perceived it as bashing and felt sorry for her.

I realize that I'm sometimes backwards, usually late and often wrong. But my WH appears to be my FWH now and seems to be indifferent to OP so that works for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SC-

While I can appreciate (and agree with) your viewpoint, I'd caution you that this subject has been raised MANY times on this board before. The result is always the same...nothing. The thread will get locked, the moderators will edit the thread...and nothing will change.

Everyone will continue on posting how they see fit...no matter what arguments or discussions or points are raised. They post the way they post for their own reasons...and unless the moderators suddenly decide that the name calling and such is inappropriate, nothing will be done about it.

I'm notorious around here for starting exactly these same kinds of threads, or calling out others on the same issues you raise. I've quit...again, its pointless to attempt to make a change if everyone's comfortable with the way things are.

The best you can hope to do is to bring your own POV and compassion to the table when you post to someone, and hope that your posts will be an appropriate counterpoint to the ones that seem much harsher.

I have found it EXTREMELY difficult to bite my tongue whenever refering to OM with my WW as I consider him just a notch above a child molestor in my mind.

They are usually people who prey on others vulnerabilities and seem to have no conscience for their actions...at least in my case.

Not only is the BS forced to endure the humiliation of their spouse betraying them, but we must also use restraint when refering to someone who is a threat to their M and family. All the while the OP is championed as trustworthy by the WS.

I understand holding back the verbal assault if you are trying to save your M, but if you are done trying I have no problem with unleashing a verbal assualt on the OP if challenged.

Sorry, but I almost vomit at the thought of how I was "understanding" about the OP with my WW just after d-day.

HTW

Mel, please allow me to but in here and give my opinion on this:

I think most WS’s who first come here already feel bad about what they’re doing/have been doing and the fact that they reach out for help on a Marriage Builder website is definitely an indication IMO that they have taken the first step towards recovery and want to change (or get out of the addiction)… Yes, most of them might still be in a thick fog when they first get here, and that's to be expected, but at least on a subconscious level they know deep down what they’re doing is wrong…otherwise they would have not chosen to post here in the first place and seeking help (first step towards recovery).

Therefore, if you keep in mind that many WS’s who first get here are probably already full of feelings of guilt, shame and unworthiness because of their actions (as they should), extreme attempts from others to get them to feel more bad, unworthy and shameful about themselves than they already are, might probably NOT be helpful and constructive at all…but hurtful to a point that it can push them away and totally hinder or slow down personal and therefore marital recovery.

Yes, attempts to make a WS feel bad to help them wake up from their “fog” certainly have its place and can definitely help to achieve this goal (I have seen this), but…like everything in life…all things can be taken to the extreme (which is not always good) and lead to opposite results than one had first in mind. It’s not the same for each person and what might work to get one person out of the “fog” might not work for another.

Just my 2 cents.

Melody,


I don't disagree with what you are trying to achieve or what you said directly above. I think that what you're trying to achieve is good. I don't like how you attempt to achieve what you say you're trying to achieve and I also don't happen to think it's effective.

I do think some of the things you post are very inflammatory and hurtful - and I also know that you make no apologies for your style. *shrugs* My opinion is just that: my opinion. Obviously, you have quite a following on this board that think your style is laudable and very effective.

Either way, discussions between us tend to go nowhere. So, I won't address you further except to clarify where I believe I've been misrepresented.

Mys

Pep,

I appreciate your response.


So, if we burn the OP in effigy then that is a symbolic venting of the anger? Well, hopefully, we only stick to effigies.

I can understand that.


Perhaps. Maybe the trick is knowing when it's no longer theraputic? At some point, if one keeps concentrating on rebuilding and reburning that effigy, it will start to consume his/her entire life.


All right, the OP bashing that goes on in threads on this board is simply the internet equivalent of mustering up a mob of people to burn an effigy of someone to protest injustice and provide some sense of catharsis to hurting people?

All right, I hadn't thought of it that way. That does make sense and and I can see how it has a place here. It also answers my question.

Thanks, Pep.

Mys

Owl is exactly right. While I may believe that some are not forthright enough, it is not my place to dictate the posting styles of others according to my personal tastes. I don't have that kind of power over others and wouldn't assume such.

Our posts are an expression of our personalities and we all have different styles, worldviews, which is an asset to this forum. Trying to dictate the posting styles of others is not only arrogant, but an exercise in frustration and futility as Owl pointed out. Trying to control others just about ensures that disappointment will be our lot in life.

As they say in AA, you can can't control people, places or things, you can only control yourself.