First of all, thanks for the post. I am so glad people like all of you take the time to help others like me. I hope I get through this and am able to offer some of my own advice on the other side. I think I will.

I totally get what you are saying and couldn't agree more... but I don't think the problem really is me, though. I have a hard time getting her to set aside the time with her volunteer activities, kids activities, errands, etc. I can and would do it in a heartbeat... screw the job. But right now, she seems content to make these other things priorities (I think b/c it allows her to ignore the pain in our marriage right now... I really don't think NC is broken)

This actually has been a problem for us in the past b/c she feels I have been too demanding of her time to spend alone with me... she feels that I have been controlling and has forced her to miss parts of her life (girlfriends, activities, etc.) to spend with me.

This is partly true but a large part revisionist history also. We went through several years where a lot of friends and family moved away, we had very small children, couldn't get babysitters and we didn't have a lot of luck plugging into our new community. This was particularly hard for her, a stay at home mom.

We can all sit here and say she was a big girl and could have gone out if she wanted but the reality is that, regardless of what she could have done, she says she didn't feel like 'I would have been supportive' so she didn't. She looks back on those years now and feels that I basically kept her in a box... she totally disregards that we had small children she didn't want to leave, we actually had a decent amount of friends but by chance most moved away, our close family nearby moved away. When I point these things out to her, she says I am just telling her that she's wrong and her feelings weren't real.

Either way, the EA started when she started to feel 'liberated'... kids were finally a bit older, we got a daytime babysitter for a dozen hrs per week, she plugged into community activities, she met new girlfriends, etc. She looked around, like all these new things, and was sad that she didn't have them in the past and, basically, blamed me. She says she had the EA b/c she finally felt like she wanted to do something selfish for herself even though she knew it was wrong. She says she couldn't stop it once it started.

Either way, given her perspective that my demands on her time have been a problem for us b/c they kept her from being what she wanted to be, it is hard for me to get her to set aside 15hrs/wk. Btw, she is also knee-jerk dismissive of 'plans' like MB b/c she thinks they are gimmicks.

I would love to get involved in the things she does and I somehow feel (guess?) she is a little territorial about these things b/c I think she feels she has carved out something good for herself... and is afraid I will ruin it like I apparently ruined her other years.

All these things are slowing down progress, if there even is any. Either way, I feel like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place... I know I need to spend time with her (and really want to) but also am sensitive that she feels my demands on her time are trying to 'control' her.

Any thoughts?

ML - Thanks for your post...

I have not exposed to OM's wife b/c they live in town and my wife and I decided the risk to her (my wife) and our family in terms of reputation and gossip would be catastrophic if their family couldn't keep it quiet. I still debate now if I should... I'd love to hurt him but also don't want to inflict the kind of pain I feel OM's W or their family if it can be avoided (maybe he has turned over a new leaf... doubtful, though... he moved in on my wife pretty quick... seemed like he'd done it before).

Maybe I could somehow tell his wife anonymously?

Also, my W has said that she no longer has any feelings for him... that she now sees that what she had with him was artificial... that she doesn't love him and never loved him the way she loves me (though, since that confession, our relationship has seemed to go pretty cold). She has seemed very solemn when she has told me these things... I certainly want to believe them but can I. My wife is a very bright and psychologically aware person so I think she could come to these conclusions. Is this possible or probable?

LTH,

You are still in your own fog. Keep up with plan A. She'll make more time for you when she feels more connected to you. Just keep slowly chipping away at the wall and make your positive changes permanent. Right now your WW is probably thinking, "okay I ended my A, but after a few months we'll be headed back to the same old unhappy marriage." She doesn't want to make herself vulnerable to getting let down again. Through time she will start to trust you and the direction of your relationship again.

On another note, OMW has a right to know about the A, so she has the same opportunity to work on her M like you are working on yours. Who cares what other people think? Would you rather be an unhappy couple that puts on a good face, or a happy couple that some people whisper about behind your back? Those people aren't your friends anyway. If your W finds out that you exposed to OMW, she'll be pissed, but she'll get over it after a few weeks. Let her know that you did it because OMW had a right to know, not to get back at her or OM.

Sitting here now, I agree. I wish someone would have told me asap so I could have stopped the A before it did all the additional damage to my M. OM seems like a sleaze (moved in on my W w/ suggestive email near immediately, preyed on my W's insecurity, worked to undermine her view of me continually; the way he operated suggests he's done this before; long ago, I met OM's W and she even made some cryptic remark to me which, in hindsight, intimated she suspected he wasn't trustworthy). OM's W should know so she can either dump him or confront him.

I couldn't say my intentions were so pure, though... I would derive too much satisfaction from: a) inflicting pain on OM, b) bringing into daylight for my W to see the seediness of what happened, the pain it causes and how a sleazy guy like OM operates.

In this tenuous state that I am in w/ my W, I am concerned this would set us back again with my W seeing me as a vindictive BH trying, once again, to show her how wrong she acted and punishing her.

Any thoughts on if I could/should do it anonymously to spare my W additional shame or maybe doing it anonymously and not telling my W? Seems a little like a bad TV show but maybe an anonymous letter to OMW outlining what OM did without naming names?

No, not anonymously. Call OMW, tell him who you are, give her the suggestive emails, and move on. Don't be afraid of your W. If anything, it sets you back two weeks. Don't worry, she'll get over it. Can you handle two extra weeks without affection for doing the right thing?

Don't have anything other than phone bills which show approx 10hrs/month on phone with him. I agree I need to do this eventually... just not right now. Hopefully I am right.

Oops! Double post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LTH,

I'm going to be succinct. What I see you doing is this: You have read around on the forum a bit about EN's and LB's enough to be somewhat familiar with the terminology. Your WW had an EA, and has not resumed affection or SF as quickly as you would like. So you come on here and say, "How do I get my WW to give me the affection and sex that I want?" Then several people respond to you with sound ideas straight from the site about continuing to Plan A...and making sure to expose to OMW ...and your response is pretty much, "I can not do that. Here's why. I will do it my way."

If you want us to tell you that your way will work, then I suggest that you ask us if we think your way will work. Personally, I do not. If I were your wife I would have enormous resentment and it would be GROWING--and thus my LoveBank would be DRAINING and not FILLING. A drained LoveBank does not lead to a desire to fulfill your needs for affection or sex. OTOH, if you ask us "How do I deal with this" and we tell you, then we are telling you because we have been here and seen hundreds of cases JUST LIKE YOURS where your way did not work and working Dr. Harley's Plan A and Plan B DID WORK.

I'm telling you this because maybe you need to figure out what you're asking us. It seems to me that you're asking, "Will my way work? I am unwilling to consider other ways." Cool. Ask that. OTOH if you actually ARE willing to consider a method that feels counter-intuitive and actually WORKS--please ask for our advice and then find ways to follow it.

Thank you!!



--CJ

P.S. I am just curious about one thing. Rather than discussing your WW and how SHE needs to be meeting your needs of SF and Affection right now, let's focus on you. You are the one who is here on MB. Have you done some soul-searching? Do you know what LB's you were actively involved in that created an environment that made an A an option? What are you doing about those LB's? In what way are you working about becoming the man and husband that she needs? How are you meeting her needs? We can not work on WW because she is not here--so let's put the focus where it should be!

I hear what you are all saying and am trying it all... Plan A, make yourself better, look at the problems in the marriage to which you have contributed, fix them, date your wife again, make her fall in love with you. At the same time as all this, I am also trying to heal inside the hurt and pain from her A and ongoing rejection of me. It is brutally and emotionally exhausting but I am taking all this cumulative advice.

I am in IC, we are in MC. I have inventoried certain ways I act and how they are LB and am stopping them, I have filled out the ENQ for my W (who won't fill it out) to do my best guess of her EN and am working toward making them better. I've bought the books (which she won't read). I am trying to make the 15hrs per week, trying to set up dates, trying to find fun things for us to do better. I have stopped making any sexual advances to eliminate this as a source of tension (haven't even made the slightest approach in almost a month). I am trying to initiate minimal ongoing non-sexual physical contact... holding hands, hugs, sitting close. I've totally let go of any expectation on household work. I have been telling my wife how great she is, how much I love her, how beautiful she is, how much I respect what she does and appreciate how much work she gets done. I am minimizing talk about the M or the A in order to keep things light and fun as much as possible. In return, I do see her changing a little bit… a little nicer to me, cutting back on volunteer work, making a little more time for me.

What I am saying is that it doesn't appear to be working too well... at least not yet (or maybe I need more patience and time). It's been 4months since D-Day and nearly 1month of very good behavior by me (no major LBs). W still seems very affectionately detached... little response to hugs, minimal response to ILY, not responsive to any kind of emotional conversation. We seem to have fun when we go out and do stuff either together or with the family but its seems very platonic (sp?). When we get time together alone at home at night, sometimes it's nice and fun and sometimes she's exhausted and goes to sleep pretty quickly. When I try to actively schedule stuff for us to do alone, a lot of the time, it conflicts with something she sees as a higher priority... kid's activities, household work (yes, I get the irony here), her volunteer commitments (which, to be fair, she made previous to DDay and can't easily shrug off; she is working to trim them down drastically but it takes time). If I press her to make this time a priority for just us, she views me as being critical of her judgement... that I don't believe she sets priorities correctly.

Occasionally, I will ask her if she feels like we are connecting again and she says, "sometimes yes, sometimes no". I gently try to get her to be a little specific about what she feels we connect on and what we don't but she just says she doesn't know.

I try to reassure her that we can get through this... that we can reconnect again, that I can change to meet her needs and she just shakes her head as though she doesn't think this is possible. She seems convinced that "I am bad for her"... I'm not sure I know what that means.

Reading all the posts on MB, I started to get paranoid that maybe NC was broken which might explain the lack of progress. I still don't think so (W's been pretty clear that she understands it was wrong and artificial) but you can never be sure so this lingers a bit in the back of my mind. I also get paranoid that maybe this was a PA rather than an EA and, the fact that she hasn't come clean on this is eating away at her and preventing her from reconnecting. Again, the facts and what I know of her personality lead me to believe this was just an EA (though, she admits there was a sexual element of the EA... she called it very inappropriate flirting but never involved touching... even solo).

I guess I am looking for reassurance that an EA as long as hers (18months) is recoverable... has too much happened that she will never really come back to me? I get concerned that she will settle for a 'roommates' M where we share the chores and taking care of the kids, do some fun stuff together but that's about it. I just want some emotional closeness... I'm not even talking physical at this point anymore.

Withdrawal from an affair that long will take at least 6 months. My W wanted nothing to do with me for about 3 months after her A ended. This is common. The longer you can continue to plan A, meet her needs and avoid LBs with nothing in return, the more you will motivate her to work more on the marriage. This is a long and difficult process and I am truly sorry that you will have to suffer through this during the next year, but it will be worth it in the long run, I promise. I know that your natural instinct is to want her to "make it up to you," but that will not come for a very long time.

The best thing you can do right now is have faith in the MB program that long term things will work out, but in the interim have absolutely NO expectations of getting your needs met. Focus your energy on being absolutely the best husband and father you can possibly be, and I promise your W will notice the changes in you, even if she doesn't say so. She's waiting for things to go back to the way they were before the affair, and she doesn't want that. The longer you show these changes are permanent, the more she will reciprocate. Take comfort in the small signs of progress along the way.

I was in your shoes just 3-6 months ago. Things are starting to really improve. My W tells me that she loves me again. She has insinuated that she will have SF with me on our vacation next week. We are almost there. You can be where I am now, but it will take some time. Just be patient, and let the MB plan do its work. Sometimes it takes longer than others, but it generally does work, especially if the affair is over.

LTH:

18 month EA?

Recoverable?

She's a rookie.

And you have the CLOSERS of MB on your side now.

There are examples of M that had 2-3 years of PA/EA and the Waywards moves in with the OP that were recovered.

And the couple is more in love than they ever were before even the A happened.

You have been here a week.

So relax.

Your W may try to re-establish contact, that is HER choice. You just have to monitor for it.

Read JMWC's entire thread. That's a roller coaster. And his sitch was worse.

braeworth is in about the same sitch as you, so you two are teammates.

Don't be afraid to steal off of other threads.

Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

You didn't get here overnight. And this problem won't be solved overnight. But it will be.

Give it the time it needs.

Because if you think this is tough?

Try Divorce.

Try attempted suicide (Read b0b pure's thread).

Try dropping your kids off at the OM house every week.

So, this is going to be tough. But it could be alot worse.

Do the Plan A things Feed her EN's.

She will come around.

LG

LG & Jim - Thanks. That perspective helps a bit given I had previously thought 3wks was timeframe for withdrawal before things started to get better... just disappointed that things seem to have gotten worse over the 4 months since DDay.

Btw... can I just reiterate how much this sucks and is unfair? She has an A, breaks my heart and devestates our M, leaves me to heal my own pain for the A, gets foggy and blames all troubles on me and our M and gets depressed and sees this as b/c she has chosen to stay with me. AHHHHHH!

I can just say it hurts even more reading the whole MB website and see time after time lists, etc. that talk about things the WS "should" be doing... reassuring BS they love them, showing extra affection, even if it doesn't seem natural, etc. and then being with WS who does none of them and won't even take the friggin' ENQ so that I can meet her needs. It just seems mean and selfish of her, once again.

Sorry to vent but as everyone keeps saying... this IS unfair and takes time and you don't get to do anything but live with it.

I wish somehow I could get her to visit this website to see that what she is going through, things she is saying and doing, things our M is experiencing are "textbook", temporary and recoverable... she seems so resigned that there is no hope and that programs like MB are gimmicks which wouldn't work for us. This resignation coupled with her lack of desire to try to help me only slows the recovery process... I wish I could help her to see that.

If she has maintained NC w/ OM, isn't that better than 4 months ago when she was still involved w/ OM? Things probably haven't gotten worse - you've just gotten increasingly frustrated.


Yep. Life ain't fair. In addition to your complaint, I'd like to add my own. I can't stand it when the WS is more concerned about the feelings of the OP when the A finally ends. They don't want NC because that is mean to the OP and they want to help them through it. What about me?!? Yeah, it sucks. Tell me something that I don't already know.


Those lists are for the WS WANTING TO SAVE THE M. Yours obviously doesn't. We seem to have gotten stuck with the worst of the worse. Eventually she'll come around and work on these things, but you need to motivate her to do so.


It is unfair, but plenty of people just suck it up and struggle through it without complaining. The more you dwell on how unfair it is, the harder it will be to get through. Just let it be and move on.


Rule #1: You can't educate a WS. Bringing her will do no good. She will likely call this forum a "cult" and dismiss it (the cult label is a common one around here that many a BS will attest to). She needs to see it for herself without you pushing it. The more you push, the more she'll resist. Just get out of her way, and she'll come around.

Ha! I got that one too! Screw him! One thing I am glad about... after NC, I 'asked' her to send him one last email telling him that she "realized now that she didn't really have any feelings for him" and "that she didn't want to have any contact with him". She probably didn't mean it at the time but says she does now. Either way, I am so glad it was sent. I hope it hurt him... but doubt it did... my guess is that he was looking to get laid and wasn't too concerned when it was forced to end.

Quick question... am going to MC. Do you think it is ok and/or good idea to non-confrontationally bring up that her lack of affection toward me is a problem for me? Or is that too selfish at this point and I need to wait until the M is better healed and she comes to this conclusion on her own?

MC is an improvement. My W still won't go to MC. I would bring it up like this:

The lack of affection hurts and makes me feel insecure, but I am willing to tough it out until she is ready. I don't want her to feel forced to be affectionate, I want her to want to be affectionate. Any affection I receive from her will be welcome and appreciated whether it be physical or even just a kind gesture.

That way you let your W know that it bothers you, but you aren't putting any pressure on her, and you respect the way she feels right now, but it plants some seeds in her head as well. Don't ever complain about her, but frame things about how you feel and always be respectful about how she feels.

Also,

Do a search on Maybe2late's username and read about his situation. He W had a long EA with a doctor that led to kissing. He found out in May of last year and it took 7 months of pure plan A (after the A ended) to win his W back. He was complaining and contemplating giving up just like you the whole time, and then bam, one day in December she broke down, told him that she noticed all the changes he had made, was truly sorry about what she did, and wanted to stay married to him the rest of her life because he was such a great husband and father. I think he went 7 months with very limited SF (just every once in a great while because she had "needs"). It is proof that you may be making progress and not even realize it, and that your hard effort can and probably will pay off.

Went to MC... basically said just that it was tough on me to feel like she would not let me love her. Therapist asked for examples and I told of hugs which didn't get returned, ILY which went unanswered, no close talks, etc. Can't tell but think it sank in a bit.

One of her complaints is that she feels she can't be herself around me. Therapist has been building to this point but basically said that it was up to her to be herself and let me decide if I can live with it... or for her to decide that she couldn't be herself with me (yikes!... and leave presumably). I was angry b/c it seemed he was setting the table for her to decide she couldn't do it. He eventually reeled it in and I told her I wanted her to be happy and herself and that there wasn't any part of her I didn't know or want so she should really feel free to be who she wants to be.

I also told her that I realize that I've made mistakes in how I've lived my life and decisions I've made and would do certain things differently... especially some of the decisions we made which she now regrets. I think this is the first time she's heard that from me and I hope it meant something (though, I feel I've said it before).

Either way, it was a really tough session where I thought we really went to the brink of her deciding it wasn't going to work. Therapist even said he sensed a real pessimism in her.

Getting out of car on way into house, when I put my arm around her, she loosely put her arm around me. She even gave me a meek kiss a little later. I'll go ahead and call that progress, I guess (though, I feel I've been here before only to take two steps back).

Don't know if this qualifies as good news but, if it is, I wanted to share with you all who have been helpful to me. Thanks.

LTH,

Bear in mind (heehee...bear) that a weak hug back and a meek kiss is her way of demonstrating that she's willing to try going a little outside of her "comfort zone." She's TRYING even if she doesn't quite "feel" it yet, and that actually is progress.

And although what your therapist was saying sounds awfully scary, actually MC is right on the money. It is up to your W to be herself. What she has been doing is deciding to not be herself and then blaming you for that, and I think what the MC is trying to help her see is that SHE is responsible to be who she authentically is, and same for you, and THEN you two can work on your M together!! See??

((LTH)) (lose hug--heehee) I bet it was tough, but it is GOOD NEWS!! Good job!!!!



--CJ

There you go. You said something, she heard you, and she gave you some indication that she was willing to work on somethings. This is a small step that you need to remember the next time you get frustrated. Several hundred more of these steps and you'll be getting somewhere.

You need to recognize when she does take these small steps and give her positive reinforcement. Like when she hugged you and gave you a meek kiss, you could say, "Thanks, I really needed that." That way you show appreciation for her and she feels good about making you feel good. That is a love bank deposit. Keep making those and avoid withdrawals (love busters) at all costs. Right now she probably feels really crappy about herself and what she did, even if she doesn't admit it to you. You need to help her feel good about herself. If she cooks, the meal tastes great, you are a good cook. Tell her she's a good mother. Compliment her on her positive review at work. Really make an effort to build her up. Give her lots of admiration and conversation. This will really get her feeling good about herself. If she associates feeling good about herself with you, she will want to be with you. Right now she doesn't because of what she did. Keep feeding her admiration, but try and keep from getting too tacky about it or else she might just think it's a line. Trust me, this really works.

Thanks for the encouragement. I must say that MB forums are a mixed blessing... I get great advice and encouragement but also, reading many of the stories really triggers my emotional reactions. I read someone's story of an EA and I go back to where I was when I discovered.

I see so many stories on NC being broken or EA's which were actually PA's and get concerned... am I being naive? WW has promised NC... she kind of broke it the first day... said she would do over the phone but did it in person and later sent an email telling him how hard it was to do. I found the email, confronted her... it was REALLY ugly... she said she said that b/c she didn't want him to hate her after it was over. Either way, I've set up snoops for most comms... only way around is landline calls from new ph#, hidden cellphones, etc.

She has said in the past that she knows what she did was wrong, that she knows what she was doing was artificial. I've made it clear to her the consequence of broken NC. With three kids, I think she knows what's at stake and has kept it... but seeing all these stories re-ignite my paranoia