"I want to explain what happened Wed with my H, how I handled it, obviously the wrong way, and if I am correct about how I should have handled it."

Was it the wrong way because of your own code (if respect is in your code), or because your H didn't respond the way you wanted him to?

Decide that first. It matters.

Your recap at the bottom was terrific...where it turned off was the re-explaining what your folks had told you. Support your H's choices as such..."Thank you for choosing to get the kids by my parents' deadline. I don't like it when they do that, either. Say one time and not explain why they want it by then." (Could it be you guys assume that they were leaving by 4pm, instead of just needing the kids picked up by 4pm so they could actually leave by 5pm?)

Hear, acknowledge and validate. Share your stuff. I loved the "I would rather be walking with you" part. Only, you weren't stuck at work. You chose to be there.

Watch where you choose so you can see your priorities. Work may be higher than your marriage (which includes you and your H). We don't WANT it to be that way...our choices tell us what we're really doing.

As for if that would be the correct way...test your feelings, your signals. Picture the entire conversation being affirming, acknowledging and validating, as if it were happening right now. Do you feel more loving, connected or appreciative? Are those signals better than the ones you got immediately after the actual call?

And did you hear condemnation to you in your H's words...or anger in general...not towards you. Did you choose to hear sharing and hear his frustration coming from his own expectations? Or did you hear you were to blame?

Your choices of perception matter greatly. I realize how much I "personalized" before...taking it about me, when it wasn't. This chosen perception (not personalizing) allowed me even more room to act and not react.

If you're only changing to change your H's attitude, please stop. Be honest with yourself. You're choosing to continue a manipulative life, not a respectful one. That's okay. I just can't help you with that choice. I lived it way too long.

LA

Actually, I wasn't even thinking about how my H responded. I was thinking that I want to conduct myself in a positive manner. I want to make sure I am communicating in a positive manner.


My parents don't do this all the time. As a matter of fact, this is the first time this issue came up.


I did choose because if I don't get this problem worked out it is going to be a big deal for this company, and possibly my job, at least my credibility at my job.

I only work 25 hours a week so that I can be home more that at work. Working overtime doesn't happen very often. I have a very flexible job, so much so that my H is usually never bothered with kid stuff, dr appts, home sick from school, drop off and pick up from school etc. I don't mind because my job is much more flexible than my H's, but I would like some help without complaint when I do ask for help.

I know, another expectation of mine I shouldn't have, but it does take some withdrawals from my bank where FC and DS is concerned.


How it went was anything but loving, connecting and appreciative. I wonder if I had handled it the other way, if I would have felt these things.


I heard condemnation towards me. I heard that I was to blame. The sigh, the "well I took off of work at 4 and your parents didn't even leave until after 5" after I told him that I was working and it wasn't like I wanted to be here.


I don't think I am trying to change my H's attitude. I am trying to figure out how to conduct myself in a way that I can be proud of and know I am doing the best that I can.

For instance, my H plays golf. He will be gone anywhere from 4 to 8 hours usually on saturday. He has done this for years. I know he needs it to have some fun time, especially after a hard work week. For the longest time, he would try his best to make me feel guilty for taking 2-4 hours of alone time myself. He would say things like, DD mommy is going off by herself because she doesn't want to be with us. Or call me constantly while I was gone. Or call after I was gone for an hour asking when I was coming home. Or have this attitude, ignoring me, whatever when I got back. I finally told him that I understood that he needed some alone time and how much he enjoyed golf and I was more than happy for him to have that because he worked hard and deserved it. But I worked just as hard and need some alone time too. That he had this wonderful opportunity to spend some quality time with his children, to build that relationship with them, one on one time. He could either see that time as a positive time and enjoy being with his kids or he could pout and moop while I was gone. It was his choice, but I was needed to have just a few hours to myself and I was going to enjoy myself. I was no longer going to feel guilty about it. And that was it for me. I knew I had every right to have some time to myself and unwind just like him. How he felt about it was up to him.

I know I sound as if I want my H to change, to be honest I do, but I am realizing it isn't me who is going to change him. So I am concentrating on making my life a happy. One I can be proud of.

Thanks LA. Your advice is always appreciated!

Why would his sigh and statement be condemnation towards YOU...when he was speaking of his parents?

Can you hear your DH complain and hear it as NOT being about you?

"The wind whipped my car door open and dinged it."

"What a bummer."

Nobody at fault...him SHARING...not condemning. "This sucks to me right now"

You aren't responsible for his feeling angry, down, upset. You asked and he chose to pick up the kids. He did that...he's meeting his FC and yours. Doesn't mean he has to be jolly...he may have been asking you for some appreciation. "Hey, I'm doing this because I love you and our marriage and family. Doesn't mean I like doing it today, 'k?"

Give those kudos...from respect. Stop looking at your own darn love bank and look at his!

Ahhh...exclamation mark...I'm getting reactive. Again, it's because I did this to my DH, in your mindset, and I know the cost. I don't want that for you, ever. I don't want your DH tortured and brutalized. This mindset escalates...and I know you won't go there because you're here, right now, working on it. That's not who you really are and will not permit yourself to act that way.

I know this.

I'm better.

Okay...I'm going to give you other perspectives to show how locked you are in a narrow mindset for perceiving your life and especially, DH's actions:

"For the longest time, he would try his best to make me feel guilty for taking 2-4 hours of alone time myself."

You just threw your power out of the window and bogarted yourself with this statement. This choice of perspective.

You FELT guilty...didn't mean he was trying his best to make you. You aren't weak or a puppet. What you felt was valid...does not mean he did it to you. At all. Stop empowering him and then beating it out of him.

"He would say things like, DD mommy is going off by herself because she doesn't want to be with us."

If you weren't in the guilt mindset, you may have responded, "I hear you feel like I'm rejecting you, my DH, is that correct?" And you may have heard...if you were safe enough then..."I miss you when you're gone. I liked being with you before we had kids. I felt special with that singular attention you gave me. Now I'm afraid of screwing up, ticking you off, failing my kids, failing you."

Communication skills are lacking on both sides...not just his. Your half of it is choosing how you perceive it. You can choose a loving perception which has honesty, or a manipulative one, like you chose above.

"Or call me constantly while I was gone. Or call after I was gone for an hour asking when I was coming home."

In a parenting relationship with our spouses, this is common. Not owning what we want, feel, think or believe...and then acting out our emotions. Stop mothering. State your stuff. Own it. And this behavior stops. Not trying to guilt you...trying to connect with you. Your choice to see him as your enemy or your partner...or your child.

He's only your partner. Your equal.

"Or have this attitude, ignoring me, whatever when I got back."

That's acting out feeling rejected rather than stating it. You can only control stating your own...and you don't, do you?

"I finally told him that I understood that he needed some alone time and how much he enjoyed golf and I was more than happy for him to have that because he worked hard and deserved it. But I worked just as hard and need some alone time too."

So you set up "reward" time of giving to the family (through FS, etc.) as separate time, instead of "reward" time being UA together. How's that working for you?

Why not separate time for self-care and stress relief as another chore we do to make sure our real reward time is together?

"That he had this wonderful opportunity to spend some quality time with his children, to build that relationship with them, one on one time."

Is that how you see your main job with them, working usually 25 hours...so you have this constant wonderful opportunity to spend quality time with your kids and build your relationship with them?

"He could either see that time as a positive time and enjoy being with his kids or he could pout and moop while I was gone. It was his choice, but I was needed to have just a few hours to myself and I was going to enjoy myself. I was no longer going to feel guilty about it."

Sure you can feel guilty about it...if you're harming your marriage and your partner, you're gonna feel guilty...no matter how you justify it. Change your intent and beliefs, no guilt. Check yourself first, not him...no guilt.

"And that was it for me. I knew I had every right to have some time to myself and unwind just like him. How he felt about it was up to him."

If you have a right to harm your H, get divorced. That's where you're heading through justifications instead of honesty, Ruby. That's why I'm in a swirl...this tit for tat, giving to get, 50/50 crud will tank your marriage...already has harmed it.

Can you see where you're both alternating between childish choices and adult ones? Back and forth? Sort it out before you draw unhealthy lines, 'k?

Sort it out in your own head and share, claim, own and live freely in your marriage...lots of self-respect and esteem from owning your half of it...seeing your equal power and not throwing it out the window or all over your H.

You can do this...you saw clearly how you chose to react yesterday and will choose differently next time. My concern is when you are standing in a puddle of resentment, you'll forget to change your reactions to actions again and again, and become discouraged...because you continue to choose to stand and act from a puddle of resentment.

LA

I took it that way because of how the conversation was going and his tone. I had just said that I couldn't come home right then because I had to work and he then said well I got off of work at 4, etc. I read his tone of voice and reply as he sacrificed and got off of work early, which was a waste because my parents didn't leave until later, so I should do the same. I was assuming when I should have clarified what he was saying.


When it involves me in some way, I have a hard time doing this. I am just now realizing how I make it about me, when it may not be. This is on me. I wonder if I do this because of my fear of rejection. As if I am looking for any type of rejection so that I can "defend" myself or protect myself.


I do tell him all the time how much I appreciate what he is doing or has done. I have especially in the last 6 months tried to be aware of doing this. But I can see how me telling him how appreciative I am doesn't really mean much when I try to explain/defend my side later on.


Hmmm, I don't think I am torturing him or brutalizing him. Those description seem a bit extreme to me.


Okay, I can see that as a possiblity. But I can also see that it isn't necessarily him feeling like I am rejecting him by wanting some alone time because he has no problem going to play golf for hours, come home lay on the couch and watch some form of sports, or go work in the yard. His actions don't necessarily show that he wants to spend time with me. More like, he just wants me there.

To me, his words say he wants to spend time with me when I'm leaving but his actions don't say the same thing when I am there. That confuses me.


So his calling me constantly is him acting out his emotions instead of just telling me what is on his mind?

I've thought about what you said about me mothering him. Can you tell me how I am doing this? I'm not saying I'm not, I'm just not real clear on how I'm doing this.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "State your stuff. Own it. And this behavior stops."

With "State your stuff" and "Own it" do you mean I should tell him why I want some alone time? My reasons?

With "And this behavior stops" what behavior? Me feeling guilty? Or him constantly calling me, telling dd or ds that I don't want to be with them? Or all of it? If I explain my need for alone time to him and acknowledge how he feels about it, he won't have the need to call, etc?


I thought I wasn't suppose to share these type of feelings with him? It makes him feel responsible for my feelings. Saying I feel rejected when you do this or that?


I'm not seeing what you mean here. Do you mean that I am saying we get rewarded with alone time for working so hard during the week? Instead we should be rewarded with family time for working so hard during the week?


How would I do this? I don't really see the difference.


Because I am their caregiver who is with them most of the time, I have other responsibilities in regards to the kids too, school, extracurricular activities, friends, healthcare, time-outs, fun time, etc. But through all of this, my relationship with them is definitely building too. My H doesn't have the opportunity I have to be as involved with them in the week to week stuff, which I do believe contributes in building my relationship with them, but he does have the opportunity during the weekends. And I believe that it is important for each parent to have one on one time with the kids, as well as entire family time. More family time, but the individual time is important too.


So what I hear you saying is that telling him that I deserved alone time just like him is harming him? That's the tit for tat thing. You had alone time so I get some too.

If that's the case, then instead of making it tit for tat, I should tell him that I need some alone time just to decompress, re-group. I need that, not because he had it. Right?

LA, I need more help on another conversation last night if you don't mind.

My H and I were talking last night and I told him that I had an appt at 4:30 tomorrow (today) which I would go to right after I left work. (He was aware that I would be working about 3-4 hours today after he got home from golf). He said, well I guess you'll be gone all day then. I said, no I will only be gone about 4.5 hours. I then said, I am hearing that you don't like for me to be gone so long. Which he said, forget it, I should have just kept my mouth shut and walked away.

I left it at that because I felt if I followed him, I would be pushing it or nagging him.

Was that the right way to handle it?

I did say as he was walking away that I would like for us to be able to talk with each other.

I took some time to think about the conversation and how I was feeling and how I was acting. I felt discouraged because he didn't want to talk as usual. And then I realized I was expecting him to talk to me, when I know he doesn't.

So I tried very hard to keep my emotions/feelings under control and not let them cause me to react.

But I'm not sure if I handled this in the right way. I felt like I was trying to communicate with him in a postive way.

What do you think? Could I have said it differently?

Maybe explain less and ask more.

Example:

BS: I have to work and go to an appointment at 4:30.

WS: You'll be gone all day then.

BS: About 4.5 hours.

WS: Yea, all day.

BS: hm.... why do you say that?

WS: (baffled).

BS: (stand there for a little while and if you get no response, leave. This will give him time to ponder).

JMHO,
L.

Ruby,

What a great tiny example of disconnection. Kudos on citing this and asking.

Listen and repeat goes to validating first...striving to first understand, then be understood.

"You feel I will be gone all day? I'm looking forward to spending the other ten hours together."

Not refuting...which is subtle here...he's saying his perception of all day and you clarifying that technically it isn't.

May be that this part of the day was important...and you may here why or not. Sounds like you had plans you had to do, and he had plans for golf...what were the pre-agreed to plans for the rest of the day and evening (and night)? When we make plans for getting our stuff done...and don't use the same care and attention to what we're doing together when...even if it's chillin', side by side...then can you see where wide open can bring on a touch of fear...second place...not important? When you have separate plans, you can talk about how to work them in between your togetherness...rather than working your togetherness around the other plans.

Now, to your previous post.

I'm delighted you got where your assumptions trip up real communication...we all do this...you're not nuts or wrong...not doing it, though, widens the channels for intimacy...true connection. Every assumption you have which you are unaware of (not seeing you choosing to assume) breaks connection...fractures it. Can often result in you not feeling heard, appreciated, accepted, understood...valid. And we're doing it to ourselves!

What we do to others, we will do to ourselves. What we will not do to ourselves, we will not do to others.

"I do tell him all the time how much I appreciate what he is doing or has done. I have especially in the last 6 months tried to be aware of doing this. But I can see how me telling him how appreciative I am doesn't really mean much when I try to explain/defend my side later on."

Huge kudos on this discovery. Great insight. I really think this goes to what Orchid has been telling you.

"Hmmm, I don't think I am torturing him or brutalizing him. Those description seem a bit extreme to me."

I have a problem with hyperbole. I've been working on it. Thank you for pointing this out for me. In my work on my own "all or nothing" mindset, what I fear most is that you don't understand that the pain you feel inside is also what your DH feels inside a lot of the time. If you picture your DH feeling abandoned, rejected, judged lacking, and the resulting emotions from those fears realized in him...do you feel more or less connected to him?

If you choose to perceive him as unfazed, completely content, no fear, no pain...do you feel more or less connected to him?

I was going for your choice of perception and I ran over myself. Inside, I try to get my own attention through extremes...from years of not paying attention to my own signals. I'm working on it.

"Okay, I can see that as a possiblity. But I can also see that it isn't necessarily him feeling like I am rejecting him by wanting some alone time because he has no problem going to play golf for hours, come home lay on the couch and watch some form of sports, or go work in the yard. His actions don't necessarily show that he wants to spend time with me. More like, he just wants me there.

To me, his words say he wants to spend time with me when I'm leaving but his actions don't say the same thing when I am there. That confuses me."

I saw this often in my own marriage. I would judge my DH's feelings through his actions instead of ascertaining the reality of what they were. My own DJs kicking my heart to dust. And then I would feel unloved and point at him for not doing his job at making me feel loved. It was a spiral. It began when I judged his actions to guess his feelings.

What I didn't see was my DH's forms of distraction...and we only distract from pain and fear, not joy and love. What I heard you just say, too, is that your presence isn't important. You don't know that. Your presence may be critical to him being able to do what he does. Your very being, present, has huge importance. You won't know that if you discount your presence...and if you discount yours, then you will discount his...and all the opportunities with it, by you both being present.

Share more, judge less.

Which is why I say, "State your own stuff." If you are clear and share your own feelings, thoughts, desires, beliefs and perceptions...you will hear your assumptions aloud. You'll hear yourself lie and your truth.

You are assuming stuff about him; he's assuming stuff about you (that you don't want to be with him, spend time with him). Do you? You said you cherish your alone time. Is your truth that you feel better apart than together? That you're cherishing your space more than marital space?

Cherishing is a choice we make. Find your own truth and where it's biting you for attention. Acknowledgement. Understanding. Get to what you really believe, what you're choosing from, and you may see that what annoys you most about H calling you all the time is him wanting to connect with you more. You want to connect with yourself more. Can feel draining...all this disconnection. If choose to see his choice to call a lot and then ignore you when you're present, how do you reconcile those two things?

Judgment just won't stretch that far. Assumptions are very limited. Ditch them. State..."I figured out I am confused a lot of the time. You call me a lot and say things like I don't want to spend time with you, and then you when we're both present, I perceive I'm being ignored. I'm looking at what connection looks like to me."

What does acceptance, connection, look like to you?

Nowhere does this say, "I feel because you do". This is you examining your own stuff, sharing. I was advising before for you to KNOW where your feelings of rejection come from before you share them. It's tricky. The more you reject H, the more you'll feel rejected.

And when you do this, your H may still feel he is doing it to you. Up to you to KNOW he's not. Your stuff. All your own. Lots of power and limits in that.

I got from your previous post that you were "rewarding" yourself from working all week with alone time. You tell me...is that what it is? Can you recharge, refuel and re-energize from connection...or only from disconnection?

Somewhere in the middle?

Perspective determines how we experience our lives. I asked you to consider changing your perspective from your reward being alone time, to your reward being UA time or family time (both). Choice of intent to your alone time would be another act you chose to do, like a chore, to benefit your marriage. Doesn't change the actions...changes your experience of them.

If you see alone time as refuge from the assualt of family and husband...then when you are with them, you will feel assualted. Soley from you choosing that intent, that perspective. Seems to me, Ruby, you are very focused on the mechanics of marriage...and not the big picture. Which is you and your experience with marriage. What do you think?

Your perceptions change your feelings; your perspective changes your experience...both come from your beliefs...which originate with your thoughts...that's one complicatedly layered process. All of it is half of your marriage.

When you don't see a difference, that may signal you are looking only at the result...doesn't change your amount of alone time, or H's feelings of abandonment, or anything of the external stuff you're looking to fix. Changing your own experience of your marriage takes your focus being not on the outside--on the inside.

Your DH has opportunity to connect with his children all the time...it's there. Creativity not quantity. I agree with the one on one time...up to him to make it and take it. He has that opportunity consistently. Taking one child with him on an errand, on the golf course...and then the other, is mostly how fathers connect. Calls to them during the day...notes left...bedtime rituals, morning rituals...things you do as their primary caregiver has room for him doing them. You choosing to have alone time on the weekends so he can connect...to me...is a small manipulation you are doing. Again...why you choose to do what you do is as important as it being done...look to your perspective...that you can make him connect with his kids by removing yourself for a short time...isn't valid.

You rephrased really well at the end of your post. I was really harsh (reading my quote back)...and I think I'm coming close to understanding why. Because I react to your DJs as if they are being done to me. And to the old tit for tat and way I lived. Yes, your intent matters. If, in your highest honesty, you are only taking that alone time to even the score as you see it, then state that. It's okay. Tells you where your mindset is.

Which would be reasonable because you see HIM as doing this to you, too. You're doing what he's doing back to him...and see him doing back to you. Enemies. Two siblings making sure everything is 50/50 and equal...fair.

Instead of loved, understood and accepted.

What if, going back to your last post, your response was...

"Wow. I'm hearing "all day" as if you're saying I'm selfish, abandoning and hate you. I don't think you meant that. What do you mean?"

I realize this high level of intimacy is frightening...we were playing cards with some friends last night and I did this aloud...when I was dealing and the flop was awful. I said aloud, "I'm hearing in my head you-suck-you-suck-you-suck" and I cracked up. My DH cracked up. The other four looked shocked. Then they cracked up. I didn't feel embarrassed or awkward...felt connective. Real. Didn't let my inner critic eat away at my enjoyment of the evening, nor did I buy into it's statement. Became fun fodder when shared. I feel safe with my friends and my DH because I act safe.

Was funnier, though, when my DH won a hand and I said, "Remember now, he's silent and deadly." And my friend said, "Did you just call your DH a fart?"

ROFL

My face hurts today from laughing so long last night.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My DH has deep fear with others...and he chose to be present, participate, risk and have the experience of all of us together (a rarity). Last night, when we were asleep, he held and hugged and touched...and we ended up making love...and I choose to see that as him feeling more connected to me because of his own choices...holding his fear and socializing anyway. I act safe...and then I am safe for my DH. Connected. Appreciated. Loved. High priority...no rejection.

My choice how I perceive. I'll know his truth when we get a chance to talk tonight. Opportunity, not certainty.

Leaves me smiling today!

LA

Good morning!

Orchid, thank you for chiming in. I think your tip to ask more and explain less is great. I'm always trying to explain myself, to everyone. I don't want to be misunderstood, which I think is related to my fear of rejection in some way. At times, while I'm explaining myself, I can hear that little voice in my head saying time to shut up, you've gone on too long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LA,


We didn't really have any big plans. We wanted to work some on redecorating my dd's room, but nothing pressing. So if we had made some concrete plans, he would have been more accepting of what I was going to do beforehand?

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason being my H tells me he is fine, we are fine, we don't have any problems. So I do not feel connected with him. He is fine and I am not. He is happy with our M and I am not. It scares me how differently we see our M. I fear that this is it for us and I will never know what a truly intimate, passionate M is. I feel I can't have that with a man who won't participate in creating it.


But don't actions speak louder that words? Talk is cheap, etc.


I think my presence is important because without it, he would have to focus some if not most of his attention on the kids, not 100% on whatever it is he wants to do, like watch sports, work in the yard, tinker in the garage, etc. I don't see how it could be anymore than that because he isn't trying to spend time with me when I am there.




I think me needing alone time goes along the same lines as those EN's that are being met don't seem as important as those not being met. I don't get much alone time. Even on the days that I work, my lunch hour is spent picking up my children from preschool or school and take them to my parent's house then back to work. We spend a lot of time together as a family. I need some alone time just to re-group. I need time where I can concentrate on me. It's not much, just a 2-4 hours a week. I need this so that I can focus more, participate more, give more when I am with my family. That's just me. Do you not need time to yourself?


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Could you please elaborate?


I don't take alone time so he can connect with our kids. I was trying to point out to him how he could use that time to connect. It didn't have to be this negative thing. It could be a positive thing for him too. Trust me, I've told him I need this time.


It isn't to even the score. I truly need some time to myself to be a better mom and wife. I would burn out otherwise. Which is why I stopped feeling guilty about it, because I knew I needed it. What I don't understand is why he doesn't understand that because that is exactly the reason he states he likes to go play golf on saturday mornings. I've tried to get him to see why I need this by pointing his own reasons out to him. He wouldn't or couldn't so I just stopped. I know I need some time to myself. I can not make him understand or accept that.

I do have a question for you. Does this, the clarifying and confirming, get easier to do with time? Does it become more natural with time? I find myself fighting with my feelings to do this. I also see that it's something I have to be aware of, it's not a natural response. Does that come with time?

How does a person find desire for their spouse again?

I am having such a hard time with that. I have for a while now.

I've never been comfortable with my own sexuality so I would imagine this plays a role in my lack of desire for my H. I realize it's not just him.

What do I do to go about changing this? I want passion and desire, but I am uncomfortable with it. I guess I'm pretty naive about it also.

Ruby,

"At times, while I'm explaining myself, I can hear that little voice in my head saying time to shut up, you've gone on too long."

I think you know I'm the culprit of over-explaining, also. One of the roots of it comes from not believing my opinion is equal to others...lots of negative stuff in my head used to interfere with my statements. Another part is my desire to convince someone of my opinion...not enough to state it, has to be agreed with by someone else to be valid.

Another part is being told repeatedly that I was defective, crazy, weird, odd, not normal...which was behind my opinion (even of just my own stuff) being suspect...even to myself.

Three parts of a whole...simple statements (O&H drivebys) really helped me. Would love to see you say, "Then I stopped talking because I knew I'd already made my point." Not the harsh statement you hear.

Our choice.

"We didn't really have any big plans. We wanted to work some on redecorating my dd's room, but nothing pressing. So if we had made some concrete plans, he would have been more accepting of what I was going to do beforehand?"

Doesn't have to be big...my idea addressed emphasis...if you are going to have away plans laid out and not together (even family/marital time) laid out, what does that say to you about importance? Worth laying out away, not together? You resent your H coming home and being there without really being there. Okay. How about making the being there together time laid out a bit more, not for control, for connection? "I put aside 5pm to 7pm for family time, and 7pm to 9pm for our time. Wanna play cards? Chess? Take a walk? Do an exercise in Gottman's "Seven Principles" book? You're important to me. I want to spend my time with you and give you my attention. I like doing that."

I have no idea if your H would be more accepting...again, I'm going to your changes in you...what you did before you aren't doing now (LBs), and what you didn't do before, which you are doing now through your commitment. Approaching the intent and perspective of your choices.

"I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason being my H tells me he is fine, we are fine, we don't have any problems. So I do not feel connected with him. He is fine and I am not. He is happy with our M and I am not. It scares me how differently we see our M. I fear that this is it for us and I will never know what a truly intimate, passionate M is. I feel I can't have that with a man who won't participate in creating it."

I'm asking you to consider not believing your H. Respect that's his opinion and stated perspective. A man who distracts, distances, blames you for distancing...well, that's a problem in a marriage. Doesn't portray the happiness of cherishing his life. Am I missing something? Does he also say, "I love you, Ruby!! Gosh, I feel so happy today. I love my life!" I would have a different perception if this was what he was saying and you weren't relating.

When he says, "We don't have marital problems. You have issues. I don't." Then state your truth, "I consider any issue you have to be a marital issue. You're half of it. I'm the other half. Your half matters as much as mine does. We work together, equal partners, to make this family. I appreciate very much your acceptance of me, your appreciation and contentment within this marriage."

Your fear is yours...acting from fear, instead of love, got you right here. How about acting from love, instead? You don't know what kind of marriage you really can have...you are only now really learning how powerful you are and how very much power you give to your H and then hold him responsible for it. It's yours. How about addressing your future without fear "Don't know it until it gets here. I'm looking at right now, right here, my half"?

We can get a lot of emotions from the future and the past...where we choose to dwell in our thoughts. And experience them again, as if they are happening right now...and they are not. Both are fantasy at this point...cannot know the future nor change the past. We can experience resentment, anger, rob our love bank deeply from living in the future...which is fantasy...from our fears.

Your boundaries are about you, right now. Not the future. Seems like you're reaching to draw a boundary around yourself and you keep lassoing in H, time and other things which cannot be within your boundary.

When I shared about the spiral I experienced from DJing my DH in my own head, you responded "But don't actions speak louder that words? Talk is cheap, etc." Wow. I don't get this segue. Your choice to assume, in your head, is killing your attraction, love, admiration, appreciation for your DH...and you don't see that as an action? Are you saying that as long as you ACT as if you love, then you've done your part? Why not act as if you are loved to the marrow in your bones, experience your marriage as full, intimate and connected then?

Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your destiny. DJs begin in our thoughts. Talk is cheap? Thoughts are priceless.

I don't know if this is just me reiterating how I see you robbing your own love bank through LBs...or answering your question. To me, your focus seems ADDICTED to stay on H.

Hey, I was a love addict. Maybe why I see you that way. You may not be.

Is your talk cheap? When you share your stuff, is it valueless? Lies? Fluff? When your H shares, does that make his stuff junk?

Sharing IS an action.

This could really be me and my belief that words ARE actions...goes to Al Turtle. Words are meaningless. People have meaning. They use words.


"I think my presence is important because without it, he would have to focus some if not most of his attention on the kids, not 100% on whatever it is he wants to do, like watch sports, work in the yard, tinker in the garage, etc. I don't see how it could be anymore than that because he isn't trying to spend time with me when I am there."

Are you spending your time with him when he's there? Are you sharing work in the yard, side by side...do you watch any sports with him? Not all the time...going for the 15 hours a week, with modifications.

I totally believe in self-time, Ruby. I wasn't saying your self-time wasn't important...I was asking a philosophy question and didn't get an answer that I can see. I can't make you switch your perspective from micro to macroscopic. I know it was essential to me to do so, to change my life. Which is how I'm elaborating on my statement...if you can't see your life from a completely different view point...or two...or three...see your choices as coming from your own code, matching a concept to an action, then I don't know how else to address your PERSPECTIVE, not your actions. Your choice of actions are being determined by your choice of perception and perspective. I'm going behind your actions to your stuff...and I don't see you as coming with me.

And I see these choices as highest self-care...as important as alone time is realignment time...where we say, "Here's my goal. Here's what I'm committed to doing/not doing. Okay. What am I not doing right now which betrays my goal?"

"I'm not looking at my choice to love my H, see all of him, all he does/does not that meets my ENs. So I don't feel attraction to him, that he's my best friend and partner, and do not feel like jumping his bones to become connected as close as we can be, because I'm not FEELING connected at all. He's my adversary, my slacker, the guy who holds the power over my happiness, connection, intimacy, and joy. And he doesn't do this and that...and he does do that and this (which hurts like heck)...and right now, he's my enemy emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually."

Why point out to your H, instruct him, that he can take the time you're having alone time to connect with his children? Would he be hearing "you're an idiot and don't know how to be father" in that "pointing out" by you? He knows. He is responsible for his own stuff. As I said, he has the possibilities, the opportunities, for connecting with his kids in many ways, all the time. So do you.

You also have all-the-time possibilities and opportunities to connect to your H. You know that. I'm not going to point it out to you. I respect you know you have the power, the CHOICE to do so...so you can live in connection and have an intimate marriage.

You cannot get your equal partner to see your POV...you can state it...know it...own it...share it...that's your half. His half is to listen and know it. Respect him more, and yourself, Ruby.

What do you mean he doesn't accept your alone time? What would not accepting it look like to you? If I could not accept what my DH chose, I would leave him. Final boundary. State my stuff, state my enforcements, and respect his choice. By staying, your H accepts your stuff. He watches the kids. He doesn't follow you in your car to wherever you go to recharge and hand the kids to you and say, "No! I don't accept you doing this!" He may not agree with you...he is accepting your alone time, from what you've shared here.

"I do have a question for you. Does this, the clarifying and confirming, get easier to do with time? Does it become more natural with time? I find myself fighting with my feelings to do this. I also see that it's something I have to be aware of, it's not a natural response. Does that come with time?"

Listen and repeat is an act of freedom and respect. Has marvelous resulting feelings inside...which may be being blocked by your resentment right now, because it's yet ANOTHER thing you're doing, that he's not doing, for your marriage. If you are doing that which you will resent, stop. Builing your resentment will continue to harm and eventually wreck your marriage. Definitely wrecks your half of it. Your choice.

Yes, like any other habit we create and maintain, listen and repeat becomes an automatic response...feels like a natural one, over time. However, if you are doing it to manipulate...no, it won't. Because you will be disappointed 9 out of 10 times because it doesn't get you the response you want out of someone else.

If you are doing it as your act of respect, from your own code, it will feel marvelous...freeing, joyful and loving from being an act of love you do for yourself, your partner and your marriage. And your children. Your life.

No, it doesn't feel natural at first...when we've lived reactively, defensively, believing what we hear is what someone says (negating our own filter) for decades...separating through listen and repeat what is ours from others is tough way to go at first...until you get the authentic payoff...which is fantastic. Acting from awareness, acceptance, respect gives you loving feelings...even that in-love mushy, silly, titterpated feelings.

Comes and goes...a surefire way to love yourself completely, though. Worth the trip, the training, the initial awkwardness (which comes from self-image). And the fear which jumps up when you do it and then hear that's not what was said at all...gives you self-intimacy with your own filter...which is great, too.

As for physical passion...you are married. Your sexuality within the marriage is wide-ranging for expression. No shame between you...condoned by God. I found that to be an aphrodisiac in and of itself. We do massages, foot rubs, long kisses and deep eye contact. I do my part to put my mind in that place...and state when I'm thinking about SF. DH does the same. Doesn't mean either has to do anything about it...doing the "I would like to" beats "Want to do it's" any time.

And the whys behind the statements, shared also, sure jolt the passion part..."When you were talking to so and so, I was looking at your smile. I love your smile" which is behind the desire for SF. My DH and I are exploring this together, and have been for the last year of recovery...not perfection...seriously, the process is the thing.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA...very good post....

rubydoo..

your taker is out and in full force...

you say...

I don't see how it could be anymore than that because he isn't trying to spend time with me when I am there

yet the two previous posts ARE all about him wanting to spend time with you..

one with a walk
one with saying a comment like you're going to be out all day...

you have a good ability to spin whatever he says to meet your agenda.....

I offer that "dagger" with lots of compassion and concern...
even though it probably won't appear so...

ARK

LA,


I'm working on this. I think me over explaining goes back to my self-image, not wanting to be overlooked or dismissed.


This makes sense to me. Something else, I need to work on. I'm sure making plans for us would reassure him and not make him feel second to whatever else, work, alone time, etc.


He sounds like the lines in your second paragraph. "We don't have marital problems. You have issues. I don't." He has actually said just this, basically word for word. I just don't understand how he could be so happy with us, but maybe our idea of a fulfilling M is just different. NOt right or wrong, just different. Also, another problem I have is how he has responded/reacted to my unhappiness with our M. If he came to me and told me the things I've told him, I would take it very seriously and jump right in. He has basically said that my problems are mine, leave him out of it.

Okay, so I accept that is his opinion, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he is right or wrong. I do feel dismissed by this opinion, but I am trying not to take it so personally now. I don't know how to have a M when your partner thinks this way, but hey, that's what I am here to learn.



Yes, I definitely do this. I have a very hard time of letting go of the past, and I fear what is to come. Not being able to let go of the past has kept walls around me and my heart. Fearing the future has also kept me either paralized or taking a safer route, or what I think is the safer route.


What I was saying that we are told to look at a person's actions, not their words. Anyone can say they will do this or that, but what really matters is if they actually do this or that. Sorta like, you can talk the talk but do you walk the walk. My H's words say he wants to spend time with me, but then his actions say different. That's what I meant. You said you judged your H's feelings through his actions. I was trying to point out that I thought actions were suppose to be more truthful than words. You should believe a person's actions because they can say anything. But then again, for the past few months, I've been acting like all is fine, which really isn't true for me.

Yes, me assuming is hurting my R with my H. I wonder though, how much truth is in my assumptions. Clarifying and confirming should help me see just how much is true and how much is not.


I don't know if addicted is the right word. I'm just having a real hard time seeing or accepting that me changing is going to miraculously create this wonderful M. I am trying hard to see it that way, but changing my beliefs and thought process takes baby steps for me. Maybe not for others, but for me it does. I haven't given up. I'm still here, trying to figure all this out.


Can you explain what makes a love addict?


I did not intend for my comment to mean dismissing all words, all things shared. I placed a very limited meaning on it when I shouldn't have. What one thing means to me isn't necessarily going to mean the same thing to others. You are right, when I share or my H shares, I don't think of it as fluff, lies, junk, etc. I actually think it is very important.


Yes and no. Yardwork, not always side by side, but definitely in the yard. Sports, some but not anywhere near as much as he does. This is something else I need to pay more attention to. Just because he doesn't take the intiative to spend time with me, doesn't me I don't have to take the intiative. Again, another victim of the "if he isn't then I'm not" view.

As for the 15 hours, we do not get that much time in together a week. I did try to bring this up, but he said that that was just stupid, with an eyeroll, sigh. So I took it as not interested, so why pursue it. Now, with my new way of thinking, just because he doesn't want to accept that concept and try to meet the 15 hours, doesn't mean I can't intiate it on my own.


I thought I did answer your question, so now I'm not sure what it is you want me to say. I'm not taking alone time because my H does so I deserve it too, or so that he can connect with our kids. I am taking it because I need it for me. I would completely burnout and lose patience if I didn't have some alone time. I would not be able to parent or be a wife in a way that I feel good about if I didn't have the chance to regroup by myself.

Is that not the answer to your question? I'm confused about how you want me to answer your question.



I had to read this a few times for it to start making a little sense to me. I can see what you are saying here, I think. I do not feel a connection to my H because I am looking at what he doesn't do instead of what he does do. Because I am focused on what he isn't doing, I am not giving that connection that I do want a chance to grow and be seen.

LA, I am really confused. I see his actions that help make us good parents, household partners, friends. Are these actions suppose to make me desire him also? Are these actions suppose to create emotion when we have SF? Because from my point of view, there is no emotion there. It is not ML, it is sex. It has always been this way. Maybe what I want is fairytale and doesn't really exist. Maybe I am expecting too much. I just thought there was suppose to more between an H and W.


I haven't done this in a long while. That whole conversation was a year or so ago. I have also accepted, or trying to accept, that his parenting is his responsbility. I read something said by lostmimi about how she had to accept that her and her H had different styles of parenting. It didn't make one wrong and the other right, it just meant that they were different. And that her children could benefit from both styles. I was really bad about trying to make my H parent the same way I did because I thought it was best for our kids. I thought it would help our kids have less issues with him because I saw the way he parents as creating issues for our children to have to deal with later on in life. I am realizing I can not control that. If they do have issues with him, that is something they, H and kids, will have to work out between themselves. The same goes for any issues they will have with me and how I parented them.

I have told him this and apologized for my actions.


Yes I do. I am also realizing I am letting my resentments get in the way of this. It's hard for me to get that power away from those resentments.


Another foreign concept, but one I am beginning to see and accept.


I feel he doesn't accept it because of his words, "dd, mommy doesn't want to be with us because she needs alone time" and actions, constantly calling me wanting to know when I'll be home or ignoring me when I do get home. Okay, so he accepts it because he doesn't tell me no. He just doesn't agree with me about it. He doesn't have to. And when he says things or acts a certain way then I should clarify and confirm and then let it go. No explaining my choices or defending them. They are my choices and he doesn't have to agree with them. Is that it?


This is why I am doing it.


I don't know what to say to explain how I'm feeling about this. The physical part is there, but that's it. I can get in the mood and enjoy it, but it's just sex. We do massages and footrubs, some kissing, and most times I will get in the mood, but again it's just sex. Isn't there suppose to be something more for and between a H and W? Maybe I want something that doesn't exist. I don't know.

Ark,


Yes, he says he wants to spend time with me or acts as if he wants to spend time with me, but when that time comes, he doesn't. Not all of the time, but the majority of the time.


He says he wants to but then doesn't. I don't understand how that is spinning it.

I didn't take what you said as a dagger. I took it as your observation. It is interesting that you chose to describe it as such though.

The past few days, my H has been distant. He acts as if something is wrong. Not talking much, really only answering questions and with short answers, no chit chatting. He has made a few sarcastic remarks to me. He hasn't been very touchy. He's just been different.

I asked if anything was troubling him and he said no, but he is definitely acting like something is bothering him. I don't know if it's about me or not. He certainly hasn't acted interested in being around me, but I realize that doesn't automatically mean it's about me.

I have tried to engage him. I've been relaxed around him, sharing my day, making jokes, complimenting him, etc.

Do I just continue with this and let him work out whatever is going on with him? I know I can't make him talk to me, but I don't want him to think I'm not interested in whatever is bothering him.

What's the best way to go about this?

Anyone?

Ruby,

"I'm working on this. I think me over explaining goes back to my self-image, not wanting to be overlooked or dismissed."

Good insight.

Can you control someone overlooking or dismissing your stuff?

"This makes sense to me. Something else, I need to work on. I'm sure making plans for us would reassure him and not make him feel second to whatever else, work, alone time, etc."

And what if you do this, make plans for us time...would that reassure you, make you not feel second to whatever else (work, alone time, etc.)? Think it has an impact on you, as well?

""We don't have marital problems. You have issues. I don't." "

I believe he said this. I understand you feel dismissed by it. I sure did. In retrospect...looking backwards...I have since learned from DH that what he meant was...he didn't want to have marital problems. I had the issues because I brought them up. He didn't want me to have issues with him, for him to fail and flail with. He didn't want to be wrong.

Hear the wishful child in the deep adult voice?

In childhood, we learn false authority stating our opinions as fact..."No, you MEANT to hit me that hard!" "Yes, Santa Claus IS real!" Comes from the idea that our beliefs are our essence, ourselves...if they are wrong, then we are wrong beings.

Have you shared with your H, "I don't mind having issues in our marriage. I'm glad we have a marriage to have them in."

?

Now...I don't know what your H means when he says this...only he does...and he may not now for when he said it back then. What is he saying today...well, you updated...and he's not communicating. You've respectfully asked, acknowledged and shared, right? "I'm feeling distance between us right now. I know you know you can come to me and share. I look forward to when you choose to do so. I'm here. I love you. I'm handling my own fears right now."

You can touch as you pass by...lightly, openly...you can rub feet, hands (hand massages are cool), and smile. Your presence is huge, Ruby. Get to know and understand how important your choice to stay present is...and not pursue and not withdraw.

When he's acted this way before, did you pursue or withdraw?

Facing Love Addiction...good book for explaining a love addict. Also has a lot of great relationship stuff in it...about pursuer/distancer...and how to change your life through owning your addiction. Much easier to break that addiction, in my experience, than other ones.

"I did not intend for my comment to mean dismissing all words, all things shared. I placed a very limited meaning on it when I shouldn't have. What one thing means to me isn't necessarily going to mean the same thing to others. You are right, when I share or my H shares, I don't think of it as fluff, lies, junk, etc. I actually think it is very important."

What I did in my post was trigger to your statement, "talk is cheap" from don't only actions matter...that was MY thing...my issue and wow, did I react! Goes back to FOO and primary stuff. I heard you say that in my mother's voice. Not you, Ruby. The way I heard. I think I really unloaded. And yes, I took it too broadly and encompassing...I did that.

I call that showing you my underslip. My vulnerability.

In the Five Languages of Love...we can read others' actions...and be really wrong. I believe marriage needs both...the words and the actions, music and lyrics. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, though, because you did, I got to how reactive I am to that statement. Talk is cheap. Oh my gosh.

I support you initiating what you want...you do your half, let the results go...please keep in mind to not do anything which you will create or add resentment in yourself...so "I need to do that more" isn't a full thought...if you aren't doing it now...is it from lack of awareness or desire? Know first, then act. So you can act from love, and reap the rewards...let go the outcome.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I had to read this a few times for it to start making a little sense to me. I can see what you are saying here, I think. I do not feel a connection to my H because I am looking at what he doesn't do instead of what he does do. Because I am focused on what he isn't doing, I am not giving that connection that I do want a chance to grow and be seen.

LA, I am really confused. I see his actions that help make us good parents, household partners, friends. Are these actions suppose to make me desire him also? Are these actions suppose to create emotion when we have SF? Because from my point of view, there is no emotion there. It is not ML, it is sex. It has always been this way. Maybe what I want is fairytale and doesn't really exist. Maybe I am expecting too much. I just thought there was suppose to more between an H and W."

This is where I again, have reactivity to your mindset. Your perception. Reacting won't help either of us. I'm letting this go for now, 'k? Ark, others, can help you better than I can. When I was wayward, I said "I thought there was suppose to be more to marriage." Good to know that sets me reeling now.

"I feel he doesn't accept it because of his words, "dd, mommy doesn't want to be with us because she needs alone time" and actions, constantly calling me wanting to know when I'll be home or ignoring me when I do get home."

When did he say this? Last week? Last month? Last year? I hear you saying that you are comparing his constant calling to that statement...sounds like his constant calling is now...and his statement was last year. You can feel ignored. Doesn't mean you are being ignored.

In my post to you, I asked you to see that he accepted your alone time...didn't act to negate, change or eliminate it. That's acceptance. Not rejection. I don't know from your answer if you are choosing to see where you are accepted already...rather than highly aware of where you are rejected.

SF will be just sex for you as long as you choose it to be.

Your half is your expression...under your control. What YOU express in intimate physical connection remains yours. If you choose to believe SF is an EMOTIONAL need...and you are expressing your desire to connect...celebrating feeing connected...the instanteous giving/receiving...then that will be your experience.

Your choice. Your half.

All parts of you are YOU...if he says, "Man, I love your legs"...that's loving a part of you. Not just sex. You sure can experience it as sex, when he's making love to you with all of his heart and soul.

Again, when you dismiss, you will experience being dismissed.

When you act from love, you will experience being loved.

How we work...human design. Find out where you dismiss, devalue, ignore, emotionally blackmail...and you may not experience it as often, if any.

Up to you.

And as to your last post...You can't make him think, feel, believe or perceive anything...your lack of interest or your full interest. Neither.

Check yourself about yourself. If you are being present, available, open, sharing, loving by touch, word and deed...then you are respecting his choices. He's choosing to not disclose right now. To not share, inform, connect, right now.

Are you posting here to say, "I feel fearful right now. I feel rejected, ignored, discounted..." what do you feel? What do you think? What's your experience?

LA

LA and ARK,

I thought you both would get a big kick out of this. Guess what my latest fortune cookie fortune said...Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.

Can I pick em or what!

LA, I read your post and have a lot to think about and post. I have very limited time at work today so I probably will not be able to respond until Monday. I did want you to know that I read it and have lots to think about.

Thank you again so much. You have really helped me a great deal.

Have a wonderful weekend!

Well, I'm back. Hope you all had a great weekend.


Yes, it definitely has an impact on me. My H almost always goes right along with whatever I want to do when I make plans. And we do have a good time. I just wish he would take the initiative to plan sometimes too.

I line up the babysitter, make the plans, etc because I want to spend time with him. In the very recent past, I wished he would do the same, make the plans, etc, because it would show me that he is excited about being with me, wants to spend time with me and is putting that into action. Now, I am trying to focus on the fact that he does go along with my plans and enjoys himself.


That is very much my H. He does not want to have marital problems because I think in his mind if we do then divorce is around the corner. FOO issues.

I have tried to explain that problems don't always result in the end of a M. That the best of M's run into problems from time to time. He is definitely a conflict avoider. He always has been, I just didn't recognize it. He has always been very laid back, but now I realize it might be more than just being laid back.


Both. I usually pursue and when he doesn't respond, I withdraw. And I've always ended up disappointed or felt like he was hiding something from me. I am the type of person that if something is wrong, let's hear about it and get started on the solution. So when I feel something is going on but don't know what it is, I feel very out of control.


Some things are from lack of awareness and some from lack of desire. The lack of awareness I get. Once I am made aware, I can go with that. But what about lack of desire? How do I struggle against that?


Okay. I can't help but be disappointed though because this is where I really struggle. But I understand your view about this.


It's a constant theme. Different words, different actions but still the same theme. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. I just have a really hard time with this one because I support and encourage him having some time to himself, I wish he would do the same. Yes he accepts it, but some of his comments/actions I could do without.


Something else I need to work on. I realize I'm not comfortable with myself or emotional intimacy, so I need to focus on what I'm not doing.


All of those. My H doesn't share his problems with me. He doesn't share a lot of his life with me. I find out things from others and I'm just floored that he didn't share it with me. I am scared to death that something is going on that I need to know about, but don't. I'm worried that something is going on with him. I'm worried that he is upset with me or distancing himself from me. I feel like if I could just know what it is, then I could either help or at least prepare myself for whatever. I hate being in the dark. Again, my issues with trying to control or make things perfect. I just wish he would be more open with me. I wish I could count on that, but he doesn't, and so I worry about what is really going on.

I realize a lot of this is just me and my personality. I know that I have got to learn to let a lot of this stuff go. It's just hard.

Ruby,

Couple of suggestions...have you shared with him your desire for him to plan because you don't know for sure if he wants to spend time with you? How it would make deposits in your love bank? How about splitting it...you arrange for sitter, he makes the plans for what to do after you walk out the door. Or you alternate...one weekend, you plan, he plans the other? What parts does he fear doing...which parts do you fear doing? Talk about it...not as a complaint...you appreciate he goes along with what you plan. You would like to return the compliment!!

"I have tried to explain that problems don't always result in the end of a M."

Stop trying, stop explaining. He knows. Just as you struggle...your mind KNOWS this makes sense...your heart fears it...doesn't mean you demonstrate you know. You still know, don't you? Partner, not parent. Make sure YOU know what is a problem...90% of issues in marriage aren't problems.

Even the word "problem" can have a stigma to it.

So can issue...area of concern. Which is why "I" statements and sharing are essential to communicating well, partner to partner. Simple, nowhere easy.

Good to know you're changing your perspective from seeing him as someone who doesn't care enough (really laid back) to a conflict avoider. I'm wondering if you've seen him as unconcerned with just your issues, or others? The kids? His work? Or is he problem-solver most of the time, at work, in his FOO, etc.?

Conflict avoidance takes many forms...can be someone who is not laid back, very uptight, strives to shut down communication about issues (avoidance)...heavy-duty problem solvers look nothing like CA's...except they can be attacking, viewing, seeing problems and attack them...not seeing conflict...and seeing conflict when their partner says "I don't want you to fix it; I want you to acknowledge it." That's the conflict...the doing wrong...same with people who say, "Aww, you look sad. You need a hug. Feel better?" They gotta cheer up to keep conflict at bay, and they see conflict in feelings (their own or others) that they don't like.

Wanted to widen the idea of CA's...because I couldn't see myself in that narrow, quiet, non-responsive kind of CA'r at all...had to see more, further, into myself to see all the sneaky coping skills we develop from fearing in our self-image.

"Both. I usually pursue and when he doesn't respond, I withdraw. And I've always ended up disappointed or felt like he was hiding something from me. I am the type of person that if something is wrong, let's hear about it and get started on the solution. So when I feel something is going on but don't know what it is, I feel very out of control."

So you base your choices on his behavior? Did it occur to you to not withdraw or pursue? To stand still? To state, "I feel disappointed. I expected for you to share. I am suspicious of you hiding something from me. I fear not knowing, comes from way back in FOO. My adult self knows you will choose to share or you won't. You know how valuable and connecting it is to be shared with and to share. I have no control. You do."

Getting used to being in reality, in not knowing what we truly do not know...really hits our fear buttons. The more we say, "I don't know that yet and I'm still alive" instead of DJing in our heads, the better we teach ourselves that this isn't a threat to living...just feels like it. And we verify on our own, best we can...within our limits.

Helps us to stay present, not pursue or withdraw, and breaks that dance, finally.

Freeing.

"Some things are from lack of awareness and some from lack of desire. The lack of awareness I get. Once I am made aware, I can go with that. But what about lack of desire? How do I struggle against that?"

Okay...why struggle against yourself? Where's the benefit in that? Do you think you can control yourself into being loved? That would mean you believe you can control your H into loving you so you can feel it.

How about not struggling to control...struggling to know your desire. Okay, you don't desire to act affectionately (pretend) towards DH and that's an EN. Trace first...what's behind your lack of desire...determine what it is, what belief (DJ, expectation, perception or perspective) it's coming from. Tracing isn't struggling...believing you can actually make yourself do that which you don't want to do makes life really a tough experience. Isn't true. Humans do not do that which they do not want to do.

Since we only do and don't do...we act from desire. Not struggling to have it. You may find you have a higher false payoff in not doing something to even the score, make him feel what you feel, not be a doormat against your will...and if you can see that higher false payoff (resentment feels stronger than generosity right now)...then you'll find the root of your tit for tat, giving to get...truly free yourself from it, via reality.

Determining if our higher payoffs are real or not is essential to changing our behaviors.

Like choosing to not do that which you will resent...Resentment was a higher payoff than love, acceptance, honor...is that a real payoff? Sure the heck feels better than rejection, devalued, unworthy or shameful, doesn't it?

Tit for tat doesn't persist weakly...it feels GOOD, STRONG, entitled, owed...lots of strong signals...false empowerment does that. Not real. Not even close. Tit for tat comes after your partner's reaction...

See the same signals in giving to get? That comes before your partner's reaction...hence, the cycle.

"I just have a really hard time with this one because I support and encourage him having some time to himself, I wish he would do the same. Yes he accepts it, but some of his comments/actions I could do without."

What if he doesn't want your support or encouragement to have some time to himself...may feel rejecting, controlling to him...because it feels like support and encouragement to YOU doesn't make it feel the same to him. You know this...look at how you're applying it...you want him to do the same to you...react the same, desire the same, see the same? How do you lovingly protect your boundaries when he's disparaging? Or clarify or confirm his remarks? Not doing without...finding out about his remarks, his intent and sharing what your perception is?

Anytime you write a "yes, but" you are lying. How 'bout that? You don't really agree...you don't want his remarks. You don't feel supported and encouraged. You want to be supported and encouraged by your H to have your own time alone. That's honest. "Yes, but" isn't. It's like compromising the truth with yourself. Hurts. And you're doing it to yourself. Adds to the hurt you feel coming in when you perceive he's not only not supporting/encouraging, he's actively attacking, dissuading, tearing you down about your own self-care.

Very disconnecting. Begin with your own honesty and share it, as is...write it own...look at what you're really saying. Consider it for what it is...without justification...what is your desire and where is it coming from? Trace to know...and then share what you find.

You say you're not comfortable with yourself or emotional intimacy. That's great self-awareness. What do you fear in yourself? Where's the discomfort?

"All of those. My H doesn't share his problems with me. He doesn't share a lot of his life with me. I find out things from others and I'm just floored that he didn't share it with me. I am scared to death that something is going on that I need to know about, but don't. I'm worried that something is going on with him. I'm worried that he is upset with me or distancing himself from me. I feel like if I could just know what it is, then I could either help or at least prepare myself for whatever. I hate being in the dark. Again, my issues with trying to control or make things perfect. I just wish he would be more open with me. I wish I could count on that, but he doesn't, and so I worry about what is really going on.

I realize a lot of this is just me and my personality. I know that I have got to learn to let a lot of this stuff go. It's just hard."

Can you be brave and let go the outcome and say this in "I" statements to your H? First it takes the permission you give yourself...your stuff is valid. What you feel, fear, think, believe...your perception...share first and be open to being shared with. Tells self that the fear you feel is unreasonable...you're not being threatened. I believe a lot of the discomfort and fear of emotional intimacy are things you SHARE with your H. I don't see them as your personality...I see them as your choices, which, over time, became your reactive habit. You're changing a habit, not your personality.

LA

I have talked with him about this. He says "I know, I know. I need to work on that." And then doesn't. I've just quit asking and make the plans myself. I wonder how long we would go without going out if I didn't suggest it and plan it. I'm not going to do this because, well I like to go out, but I do wonder at times.


I do use "I" statements. I don't say we have a problem. I try to talk with him about how I am feeling, what I am worried about.


Definitely with just about all issues. He definitely has the "what can I do about it attitude", as in I can't do a thing so why worry about it. He has actually said those words about a few different things. He has "left" me physically and emotionally at different times when I needed him showing this same attitude. The first time was about 2 months into our relationship and has continued throughout. I didn't recognize it until after being in IC the last few years. It's as if he is a conflict avoider and emotionally unavailable.


I guess I saw saying the above as still pursuing him. Like I'm trying to convince him to talk to me. Which I guess I am but isn't that still pursuing?


Trust me, I work on this. I have to mentally put a big red stop sign up in my head to stop my thoughts and tell myself this isn't happening right now. I am a big time worrier. I always have been.



His alone time is usually golf. I never give him a hard time about going, even when I know he is going to be gone for hours. I ask how he played. Ooh an aah over his good holes, etc. He seems to enjoy me doing this, so I do it. I'm assuming he likes it because he acts like he likes it.
I'm not sure where my lack of desire comes from. I'm sure it has something to do with my self-esteem, but also because my H doesn't show affection/romance to me the way I need him too. I guess it comes right down to he wants physical intimacy and I want emotional intimacy. I try to meet his need but he doesn't try to meet mine, or I don't see where he is meeting it.

In regards to what he says to me or acts when I want some alone time, I ususally ask why he says that or does that.


I thought I did that when I first brought this topic up, but then you said he was accepting my alone time because he didn't try to stop me from going by saying no. So I said okay, he accepts me going. What do I do with the comments and actions surrounding me going and being gone that I could do without? I said I felt he was trying to make me for guilty about going, and you said he doesn't have that power or shouldn't have that power. Okay. What do I do with his words and actions then?


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Didn't I just use I statments when I described to you about what I feel and think when my H isn't sharing with me.


Especially this. What do you mean?