Kids as young as 5 can understand the concept of adultery and most certainly should be told about the affair. It is the obligation of a parent to give moral guidance to their children when one parent is exposing them to an immoral lifestyle or causing crisis in the family. How else will they learn right from wrong? Through osmosis? Children can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies and believing illusions about thier parents does not make them feel secure.

Dr Harley DOES recommend telling children. As a child who was LIED TO about her fathers immorality, i can attest to the fact that this only causes moral confusion. Kids know something is wrong and unless their feelings of right and wrong are validated, they learn to DOUBT them. Their feelings need to be validated and GUIDED. That is the responsibility of every parent.

Infidelity:
The Lessons Children Learn
by Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Ph.D.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Hmmmm, I have to say, notashoped, you have an interesting slant on this. I have to disagree on that slant, however. Sis handles things how she does. I similarly handled things with my son.

I think it takes either coming from a broken family or being one of the spouses in a family breaking to get how important it is for the truth. It's especially good to discuss relationships with your older preteen/teenaged children, as they are learning how to communicate by watching and hearing what their parents do. If children don't know that infidelity is wrong, they will believe it is viable alternative when the going gets tough in their relationships. I know I did and I'm certain that my WH did ( his mother used to take him along for her little trists, makes me wanna hurl!)

Again...I have not used the word "abandoned" to the boys. I have told them that their dad is doing things that are hurtful and wrong. How can there possibly be an argument about that? They have come to their own conclusions and state it in their own vernacular. To them, he just left. No explanation....seriously...he has said NOTHING to them. At all. He has left it all to me.

In terms of the level of conversations that I have with my kids, and how open I am...let me tell you I am pretty open. My mom was all freaky with the whole discussion of birds and the bees and thus I would NEVER ask her about that stuff, even when things frightened me because I didn't know what was happening to my own body.

Not wanting that for my kids, I try to be very open with the boys, esp DS11. They are just finishing up a two week repro health unit at school, and I openly asked him, "So, are you learning about x, y, z?" (puberty stuff...) He answers me very matter-of-factly and conversationally whatever they have learned. And I respond, "Interesting!"

This is a comfort thing...I know many parents would not have those kinds of conversations, but I prefer to be open about that stuff. After all, I am raising them ALONE. And I'm not a guy.

No matter how you slice and dice it...when we married, their dad made a committment to them (even though they weren't even a twinkle in our eyes yet). I would NEVER have had children without that committment, because an intact nuclear family was the ONLY POSSIBLE way for me to have a family. At the time...WH felt the SAME WAY. No question. That's how both of us were raised.

So last night, I asked the boys how they felt because (as I explained) I worry about how they process my sadness and crying. I was NOT asking them to feel sorry for me. We had just said grace, and DS8 asked for "dad to return to the light," and I wanted to explore a bit about what that meant to him.

How DO they feel? As a parent, I feel like it's my JOB to ask them how they feel! To me, that's what a parent is supposed to do...not just put the blinders on and pretend nothing catostrophic is going on in their lives. That would be insensitive and cruel.

I am not going to protect them from the truth, but I don't shove it in their face, either. I wish WH's parents had the same philosophy about being open and honest and accepting responsibility. Again, not a mistake I care to make with my own kids.

I'll also say it again...I took my name out of the running for mother of the year about nine months ago. I ain't perfect, but I'm doing the best I can do, and figuring it out as I go along, and in the midst of my own emotional nightmare.

I don't have the luxury of another parent to help make good decisions for the boys anymore. I'm doing it ALONE, and in the face of WH modeling immoral and irresponsible behavior every single day.

A GOOD parent is there to help make those good decisions...DAY IN AND DAY OUT...not out scerwing around with a married woman. (oh yeah, she's D'd now...so I guess that makes it alright.)

I really am trying to do my best. And I recognize that it is very, very tricky.

Sis, you are doing a great job. I completely agree about honesty with the children. I have NEVER said anything about abandonment to my son, EVER. I wouldn't either, as the connotation is not one that I necessarily believe truly fits his situation.

This is not the first time this discussion has taken place on this forum, and I'm sure it will not be the last.

I refuse to 'snow' my kid. He knows his daddy moved out, but he didn't know why. He knew mommy and daddy were having problems, but he didn't know why. He knew that he wanted his daddy home, but he didn't know why he wouldn't come. I decided to start helping him to understand and to feel comfortable voicing his pain and disappointment. I also let his father know what I was saying, and I asked that he speak to his son and help him.

I grew up with an understanding of what my dad did and why my mom left, and, to some extent, why my dad never called or wrote or anything. He was an alcoholic (my mom said he was sick) and he was abusive. I knew this from an early age. I still had to deal with deep seeded abandonment issues, as my father DID, in the definitive sense, abandon us (two siblings). I don't see anything wrong with the truth. I see that there are ways to deliver it that help to soften the blow.

When you are going it alone, and trying to help your children understand, the truth is the best medicine.

You say "raising them alone" like it is some sort of anomoly or impossible to do. Lots of people do it - and the kids do fine. I did it for 4 years with ZERO help - no time off for visitations and such. No weekends off to go party with the girls/guys or go to Billy Joel concerts. I couldn't have afforded to even if I wanted to as the "fair" court system decided I should fork over half my salary to her while I took care of and paid everything 100% for the kids during the divorce.

I fear that you are transferring your hurt and anger onto your kids and looking for support from them. Please don't. I know it can be hard and it is why I bring it up - extra ordinary effort has to be taken.

If your so concerned about how your kids feel about the divorce, send them to a councillor. You are not an objective sounding board for them to talk to. Anything they say will be tempered to what they think you want to hear as you are their mother and they love you and don't want to hurt you. Do you honestly feel that they are going to be 100% truthful to you about how they feel about this and their dad ? I don't.

Melodylane - 5 years old ? Tell me - how many emotional feeling and relationship discussions with your parents do you remember from when you were 5 years old ? I disagree that it is appropriate or good parenting to tell a 5 year old about adulterous relationships and what they mean and what is "right". I seriously doubt even the Harleys would support that.

The more I read, the more I think that these decisions on involving kids on adult relationship issues is more for the adults and their need to feel superior and rightous to their STBX or extranged partner. It seems it isn't about the adult relationship - it is more about the angered one gathering any and all flying monkeys regardless of age or maturity to support them and their feelings - than it is about what is best for the childrens emotional state or feelings about their other parent. I think it is fairly well known that parents who work hard to alienate kids from their other parent have a much higher probability of their kids turning against them later in life because they find that all that venom and hate was not justified - they find out that thier other parent isn't the devil they were told. They may have made some poor decisions but they didn't make them conciously on purpose to hurt their kids - at least most of them.

I think confiding in kids and looking to them for support is wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I think trying to facilitate a good relationship with the other parent is the right and correct thing to do. And if we want to bring religeon into it - isn't that what God would expect us to do ? Adultry is wrong. So is assisting in not honoring thy parent. Another wrong isn't going to fix or temper the first wrong.

I know you are doing your best lilsis. Believe it or not I am rooting for you. Keep truckin.

JMO

Believe me, they do. It is very important for children to understand what is happening in their lives, and children as young as 5 can understand concept of adultery. Of course, every parent has to determine what information their child's maturity level can process.

When I was 4, my parents did not have not any "relationship discussions" with me, and therein lies the basic problem. What I did receive at age 4 was an introduction to my adulerous father's OW. That was just the first OW. My mother thought she was doing us children a "favor" by remaining silent about this, so we all grew up very morally confused, not knowing right from wrong. That was a gross dereliction of duty.

I do remember being VERY CONFUSED as a little girl about all this. I sensed there was something wrong with this scene but since no adult would validate that instinct, I grew to DOUBT myself and came to believe I must be a very stupid girl. What SEEMED wrong to me apparently WAS NOT WRONG to adults. The only answer could be that I was STUPID.

Had my mother sat me down and told me that adultery is immoral and that my dad was doing a bad thing, I would have been validated and would not have felt so morally confused.

Dr. Harley speaks often of being told of his fathers affair and how this had a positive impact on him as a little boy. He was able to see, firsthand, the devastation of an affair and he believes this is why he has never been unfaithful. He was also able to see that a marriage CAN recover from this kind of blow. He calls it a profound learning lesson of his life.

On the other hand, I know that my mothers silence and lack of moral guidance caused great devastation to the kids in my family. Some of us learned right from wrong on our own, but I have a brother who adopted my father's moral code and is just as corrupt. He is a serial cheater who abandoned his own family. No one ever taught him otherwise. Because he was taught NOTHING, he just picked up everything taught to him by my dad. ["son, you just have to do what makes you happy."]

In the case of kids who are not exposed directly to affair partners [YET!] unless they know the truth about why their parent left or why the home is in crisis, they tend to take it personally and become very scared. They are better equipped to deal with the problem if they are told the truth.


I will just say in LilSis's defense, that I have never seen her do any of this. Rather, she has done an excellent job of appropriately informing and equipping her boys against this assault on their family. She has been very intelligent and very thoughtful about it all, and has never looked to her boys for support that I have seen.

Let's try to remember that not all situations are the same, also.

If your children have to go to a counselor to be honest, but don't talk to you, what kind of a parent are you, then? Sounds like a useless relationship. I am a parent, who is responsible, partly, for the mental wellbeing of my child, AND I am responsible for teaching them right and wrong, according to law and humanity. Not my counselor.

Counseling is not the end all be all. Your children must be able to trust you, and leaving the home that they live in and not communicating why does not build trust.

This seems to have boiled down to one particular situation, about Sis and her talking to her sons about their feelings.

I hear ya frog, too, about the respect you have for your mother and her handling of the situation that she was in. I also must point out that she did it her way, but that doesn't mean you would have respected her less had she chosen another route of communicating the situation you were in. You won't know that, because she chose to deal with it in her way. You choose to follow her lead, which, obviously, worked very well for you. My mother chose to tell me that my father was abusive and he was an alcoholic. She also chose to tell me that they were in love at one time, but the disease was too much and he succombed to alcoholism. I don't have a problem with that, but that is how MY mother chose to deal with it.

Bingo! It is the parent's responsibility to teach a child right from wrong. Passing that onto a counselor is child neglect.

It's also conflict avoidance, or just plain avoidance.

Infidelity:
The Lessons Children Learn
by Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Ph.D.

some excerpts:

"Marital discord is hard enough on children. It undermines the basic security needed for them to learn and grow. But to add infidelity to a troubled marriage turns a problem into a disaster. Parents who have an affair are teaching their children very important rules that are likely to be followed for the rest of their lives. It ultimately not only undermines their marital relationships but it also seriously hurts their own chances for success in most other areas of life.

Parents have a responsibility to teach their children the importance of honesty and the importance of thoughtfulness -- considering other people's feeling when decisions are being made. To do otherwise is not only terribly irresponsible, but may tend to perpetuate the learning of these rules of deceit and thoughtlessness for generations to come.

But even after the mistake of an affair, it is possible to make a conscious choice to change the disastrous consequences. I have counseled many parents who could see what they were teaching their children by having an affair. It motivated them to end the affair and explain to their children how wrong they had been. Although it was extremely difficult and very humbling, they were not only able to save their marriage, but also able to correct the lessons they had taught their children.

<snip>

A person involved in an affair, whether is it secret or not, must take a hard look at the messages they are sending their children. Are they seeing mom and dad living secret lives where privacy and lying are the norm, making choices that are thoughtless to their spouse, and accepting infidelity because it looks out for #1? Or are they seeing mom and dad spending time to love and care for each other, protecting each other from painful behaviors, being honest, working out conflicts together, and modeling faithfulness because it protects loved ones?

What lessons are you teaching your children? Are you protecting your marriage from infidelity? Are you making sure that your children will not learn the unwanted lessons of denial, deceit, and disregard for others?

Children can learn unwanted lessons from an unfaithful parent. But these lessons can be changed. A wayward spouse can decide to model new behaviors and teach new lessons. Think about it -- it could be the greatest gift you will ever give to your children. " [/b]

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Melodylane - how many kids do you have and what are their ages ?

Well silent - I don't mean this as an attack - but when your kid gets older and starts lying to you on occasion and trying to manipulate situations and you, I think you will modify your opinion on the amount of impact you have on him. He won't take everything you say as gospel - he'll start thinking more independently. You will still be able to talk to him and teach him and he will trust you and confide in you - but not as much as I think maybe you think.

I hate to tell you but he *will* lie to you. At first you will be appalled but as it happens more you will realize that is it part of kids developing and growing.

Not:

I can have some understanding on where you are attempting to come from. Larry178 started a thread a couple of weeks ago about "telling the children"

That is why we always try to use the all encompassing "age-appropriate thing" when speaking to the kids.

Is LilSis trying to validate/temper/filter/alleviate anything by having a discussion with her children about what is going on in thier lives?

No. She as a parent is trying to make sense of the world for the children in her life. Her H has the same opportunity to do the same thing while having a discussion with his children.

Is it possible for ANY discussion of the Affair with the children make the offending party look bad. Yes. But them's the facts. Kids will understand the Black/White nature of what is going on.

They may not dwell on it, or consider it, but if your child is dwelling on it and considering it, you darn well better makes sure that the child is getting facts and forming conclusions that are based on facts, and not internalizing the wrong conclusions.

Can some parents go overboard? Yes. We see a lot more examples of that in the general public than we do around here. IF someone has been with MB for even a short time, and learned some of the concepts, they will learn how to talk to thier children in an "age-apropriate" way about the A.

LilSis' H has abandoned her family. For all intents and purposes. No sugar-coating that. LilSis will get on with her life. The R with WH will evolve over time so that WH gets his visitation and he pays his CS and Lilsis will attend concerts when the boys are 14 & 16 under different circumstances. But in no uncertain terms, does LS have to be his "friend" nor facilitate a facade that everything is "OK". WH is bent. And HE is the one that needs to straighten out.

And yes, I got to stand there when my BS told my then 12 year old son, "your Dad has a girlfriend" Not the proudest moment of my life. But what has my son seen since that day? Parents who care, love, show affection and work together on thier M. ANd show him love, care and understanding.

And when my now 14 year old Son lies? He faces the music for that. Believe me!

LG

Not,
I have 2 kids. DD is, 9 DS is 12. If my H were to up and leave for FOW right now I would not hesitate to tell them that their Dad is making bad choices. They already know that cheating on someone is wrong. My DD actually asked me a couple of months ago if a BF had ever cheated on me. I said yes and that it was very painful. And that it is not right to do to someone. You split up before you cheat on them.

See she is already watching TV shows where cheating is done. These kids shows incorporate this all the time (ya know- young girl sees BF kissing other girl in the hallway).

So if H left right now She would be told what was going on. Would I tell her and my son that Dad is a terrible guy, is evil, has no redeeming qualities, blah, blah, blah? uh no.
BUT they would know that what he is doing is not morally acceptable and are bad choices.

At age 9, my DD is very intelligent and perceptive. At about age 5 I remember she accidentally hurt me. She started crying and I asked her why and she sad that she loved me and she hurt me. And it upset her. Course, it blew me away that she would "get that".

Young kids really do understand. Heck they go to church, they know what the bible says. I know Lilsis' kids go too.

Ya gotta tell them it's not right.

That is unfortunate for you, But please don’t attack me for behaving differently than you, when I am not in the same unfortunate financial circumstances that you faced. Fortunately for me, I have the financial ability and support system in place to do some things for ME. I need this. I have never gone off to "party." Yes, I went to a concert, and the boys stayed with my mom and their cousin for the less than 24 hours that I was gone. Other than that, the only ME time I have spent has been when the boys were with their dad.

Should I sit around in sackcloth and ashes during those times?

And yes, LOTS of people do raise kids alone. And lots of people do it unwillingly, as you and I are. That does NOT mean it is right. That does NOT mean it is good for the kids. That’s lame and you know it. LOTS of people drink and drive. LOTS of people fudge on their taxes. LOTS of people have affairs. Simply saying that something is okay just because LOTS of people do it sounds a lot like moral relativism to me.

I can honestly say that breaking up a family due to addiction or abuse is legitimate, because in those cases, having the parent around is harmful. But breaking up a family for the sole purpose of allowing WS to carry on with his/her adulterous relationship is CERTAINLY not right. In that case, it is the adulterous relationship, and the ultimate destruction of the family unit that is harmful.



Both boys attend weekly groups at school. I have spoken to both social workers and teachers asked that they keep me informed if anything in their interactions or behavior indicates that they might need some additional support.

No, I may not be objective. But I am their parent, the one that they live with 24/7 except for the one evening a week until 8:30 and every other weekend. The suggestion that I NOT discuss this with them is absurd. I agree with the comment that to do so would be neglect.

WH does not discuss any of this with the boys. He just talks in generalities about moving to a house with a big backyard. Given the fact that we are a pretty long ways away from a final D, and he has no idea where he will end up financially, this is pretty premature, and speaks to WH’s inability or unwillingness to think things through or be honest with himself. My impression is that he has this vague idea that everything will work itself out, he won’t feel any financial implications, the Brady Bunch will ensue, and we will all be good friends. This is simply not the reality.

I have not looked to them for emotional support. And I speak highly of H to them, frequently. I try to keep the focus of any conversation related to the fact that dad is not in a good place, making bad choices that hurt us, and we can hope and pray that he will begin making good choices and be like the honorable and admirable man that he is underneath. I ALWAYS put this in the context that this is something that CAN happen, that people have choices, and that making bad choices requires one to own up to those choices and begin making good ones. There is always room for redemption (I don’t use that word, either).

I can see why you might have the impression that I bash WH, because I do it all the time here. But this is my safe place to do so.

I guess my question for you, notashoped, would be what would you have me do? Do you have some specific suggestions?

I have 2 children, one 25 and the other was killed.

Most kids do lie, but Silent's point is that it is the PARENT'S responsibility to teach kids right from wrong, not a counselor. Many counselors don't even KNOW right from wrong.

Not,

You are plain wrong on this one. This is what is wrong with the world today, people turning a blind eye to everything in sight and not holding people accountable.

If you don't want the children to know you are a cheating, lying adulterer or adulteress and you want to maintain self respect and dignity then DON'T CHEAT in the first place. After you have done this you are fair game for anything that comes your way in my opinion. All consequences fall squarely on your head no one elses.

notashoped, I don't expect that my DS will always be honest with me, because I remember being a kid and teenager myself, where I learned to be very cunning, HOWEVER, I did have a pretty open dialgue with my mother about sex and about drugs and alcohol, so I'm not going to live in fear that ME being honest with him is going to harm him.

I'm not living on cloud nine here, so don't assume that I think it's all going to be roses and clovers as he ages. I still don't think keeping him in the dark about right and wrong, yes, according to me, is bad. Sorry.

I don't take anything you say personally, I validate your point in that every parent deals with infidelity in their own way. No matter what we do, those children are scarred. This is how I was taught and this is what I will pass on to my son. I'm not harmed by my mother being honest with me. She never looked to me to comfort her, it was always the other way around; that's what I do with my son.