At this point I will relate something in one of my own threads... My W filed for D and there is some speculation that part of what's motivating her is some sort of identity crisis. I replied that if that is indeed the case, when reality sets in for her, I hope that she sees that I have become a pretty good guy for her to be around. I pray for patience (among other things) everyday.


Perhaps another argument to refrain from taking another step forward? Don't step back either. Perhaps stand still for a few more beats.

I think you need to follow your friend's advice. It is time to be a little more openly agressive. What do you have to lose?

Yes, you may get hurt, but you tried.

Personally, I think there is no competition between you and the GF. You're there and she's not.

Do what your friend says and tell him you would like him to come.

Seabird, I hear what you're telling me and it rings true for me too.

I think I will take your advice and just wait it out for the moment. Let him make the next move. I told him how I feel. He knows this now. He may not have known it before, and the information is his to do with as he sees fit, and I can't compel him to see things my way. He's got to see that for himself, and if I continue to do my subtle Plan A, that will become apparent on its own.

BD - I think telling him bluntly but calmly, how I feel, *was* openly aggressive, at least enough for now.

I agree there's no competition between me and the GF - but I don't think he's seeing it that way just yet. Fog. He's hanging on to something, she's hanging on to something and until something gives in that regard and one or both just walks away, I don't think I can force the fog to lift. It has to lift on its own.

His "vacation" is still about 5 weeks away. That's plenty of time for something to give. And even if he does go, it could blow up in his face. In fact it may even be a good thing if he does go, then he'll return here to return to work and his daily life and then he'll be in a better position to decide if moving out there is a good thing or not.

It's really in God's hands - I'm just trying not to undermine God in the process <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm praying that He points me in the right direction.

JinGA

Okay. Just don't come back here later and e-kick my e-butt if it doesn't work out right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nope I sure won't. Honestly if it's going to happen, it will happen, regardless of *little* nuances by either of us. I still love him, and I've come around.

If he still loves me, he may come around, or he may not. He may not love me in 'that way' anymore. Time will tell if the fog lifts, he may see himself going in a totally different direction. I do think his fog will lift eventually.

Perhaps there's a lesson for me in this part of the discussion. Little tiny things won't matter as much as I'm giving them credit for in the big picture of things. That doesn't mean I shouldn't pay attention to them, I just shouldn't put so much importance on them.

Reading your thread in D&D has been very thought-provoking for me. You're right - the "essence" of who a person is doesn't change, but their behaviours can change if the person wants to change them.

I am who I am. Always have been, always will be. I've changed a lot about the way I do things, the way I see things, the way I react to things, but I am still the same person I have always been.

I see the same in XH. He is who he is. He always has been. However during the bad times, depression (hole in the soul as it was stated) masked who he is, and made that person fairly unrecognizable. Now that he's gained control over his condition, and he's changed some of the things he's done, eliminated some love-busting behaviours and added some love building behaviors, he's still the same person, but he's infinitely more attractive to me *now* than he was in the throes of the death of our M.

Being who we are is what brought us together in the first place. It *can* bring us together again, if that's what he wants. We were an unstoppable team when it was good. We built a good home life, a beautiful family and a business together - none of that could have happened if we weren't that good team. In many respects, we still are a good team - the business continues, our kids are awesome... the home life and family life are what's missing from that picture right now, but I do believe that could be restored if it's what we both want together, and are willing to keep doing what we're doing now, and take it to the next level.

*I* can see that. What's frustrating to me is that thusfar he's not seeing that. Not yet. He's still fogged in.

Whether in invite him for dinner one week or not, whether I read into something correctly or incorrectly - none of that will really matter in the bigger picture. I've been trusting my gut, and trusting in God to show me His path for me, and for XH. I'm hopeful that our paths will join again, I believe that's what God would want of us, but I can only do my part to try to accomplish that. The rest is up to XH, and if he's willing to let God touch his heart and move him back toward us.

I've relied heavily on my faith these last few years. It's what's got me through. God won't let me down now - he'll either show XH the way home, or He'll show me another path.

Being human and frail it's hard not to stress about it though!

JinGA

I know - I talk a lot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is really good for me to be able to put my thoughts here and re-read them as time passes. Self-therapy, as it were. I appreciate the thoughtful responses too - all of them.

He came by the shop for about an hour. An hour or so before he left work, he emailed me about "our" carpet cleaner. He's borrowed it from me and it's been on its last legs. We use it at my place, his place and our shop and the motor is shot. Out of the blue he emailed me to tell me he'd taken it apart last night, discovered the problem and had done research online to get replacement parts (he can fix it).

My friend has a carpet cleaner she doesn't want - so I mentioned that to him as well as if I buy the part we'll have a large machine (from my friend) and the smaller one (the one we have now).

He doesn't usually initiate conversation unless it's to pick the kids up or confirm scheduling/plans for them.

He came in at his usual time, told me about how he'd burned himself the other day (showed me the burn... owwie), I asked if he was OK, he said it didn't rally hurt. We chatted about some other stuff too. When he decides to talk to me about daily stuff, I stop whatever I'm doing and listen attentively.

During a break in customer flow, I scooted out to pick up the carpet cleaner from my friend, just down the road. He looked at it, it needs a bit of a "tune up". When I was out (all of 10 minutes!) he called to say it got busy again at the store and to hurry back - when I got back, the same customer was there who was there when I'd left - I guess all the others were just "lookers" and left before I got there!

He didn't stay long after that. That's OK. He helped a bit and went home. I'm here for another couple of hours past that, but it's a short day for me (only open 4 hours today, and I've goofed off most of today except a few business errands I had to run). Tomorrow I'll throw myself into the work at hand... goofing off is fine but I have to buckle back down at some point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So things are good. His phone did ring once while he was here, but he was in the other room with a client so I don't know if he answered or not.

I did tell him about his oldest brother calling, asked if he'd reached him. He said yes and they'd talked for a while. I told him that his brother sounded uncomfortable talking to me, he made a face and shrugged. I told him I asked about our neice and told him about our kids for a moment. He said the talked for about an hour last night. That's good that he's reconnecting with his family. I don't think he was ever "disconnected" but since we moved here 7 years ago (he's been here 9), other than the brother that passes through here every couple of weeks, we don't see a lot of family. XH went home for a reunion last year (and brought GF with him)... and that was the first time in many years that they'd all been together as they are all scattered across the continent.

Anyway - that's the latest. No more mention of the "vacation" or anything else that's heavy. Keeping it light, and I think we both made love bank deposits today.

JinGA

Another interesting day yesterday. If he's not trying to fill my EN, he's doing a great job of it anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He initiated another email correspondence with me about an ongoing customer issue. (That's 2 in as many days!) OK that's business - but it's a change in the right direction. The customer contacted him directly - but he dealt with it. Normally the customer goes through me - he is not usually one to deal directly with the customer for scheduling and such, and in the past he's (inadvertently?) caused problems because if I schedule him for something, it may not be "convenient" - but he won't schedule it himself, so it goes back and forth with me in the middle and if he doesn't follow through, I'm left holding the bag. That's been a problem for a long time, and I've been left to make apologies to customers etc., because ultimately the biz is mainly my responsibility. I've been resentful in the past about it too, because I've felt that I've been let down, as well as the customer and it's left us all in an uncomfortable spot.

*That* sort of thing hasn't happened in several weeks. He's taken initiative with a few issues, to just take care of it himself, and keep me in the loop. WOW... big love-bank deposits there, and good for the business too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Double points!

So he copied me on the communication with the client, so I'd know he'd have to go see to an ongoing issue after he left his regular job last night. We exchanged a couple of emails just between us - all business, concerning this.

While this was going on, I got some stuff in the mail concerning a new company that a friend/former client of ours who moved away, is starting. So I emailed him a link to the guy's website, and we exchanged some ideas about his products, and shared a laugh or two about the night we helped him move - quickly, on no notice, a few years ago. We agreed that this guy owes us a favour and we laughed about the incident.

XH emailed "Chris", calling in the favour - "Hey remember how we bailed you out, how about some free samples?!" Once "Chris" replied he'd be happy to share some freebies, he passed it on to me to supply all the info that "Chris" needed, which I did promptly.

This is something he'd normally have either not bothered with, or expected me to do. Another love-bank deposit. He shared that email exchange with me, and I sent "Chris" the address to send the samples (he was happy to oblige). And XH and I exchanged a couple more emails that were just light and humourous concerning "Chris" and some other stuff.

He did come by the shop for a few minutes, but I already knew he'd have to go see to the other client, so he didn't stay long. While he was there, another client of ours was there, and we exchanged some light conversation, the three of us (customer, himself and me). Then he left to take care of business - on time! (another plus!)

I have to say - he's doing *more* for my EN lately, than he has in many years. And he's probably not even aware of it. I don't know if he's making a conscious effort do to this, or if he's just grown up a bit more in recent weeks - I don't care - I'm loving it. It really doesn't take much to impress me - but I am definitely impressed! He's taking his share of the responsibility, and he's doing right by the clients and by me. Awesome!

I'm doing my best to offer appreciation/gratitude/positive reinforcement when I can, without going over the top. I am sincere about it, but not overwhelming with it. Perhaps that in itself is prompting him to do more - I don't know. Most of it all is business - but I've been left/expected to singlehandedly run the business (with a bit of help) for most of the 5 years we've had the business. There were times when I felt he liked the *work* but not the *customers*, and we've often struggled just to make appointments for things because he wouldn't talk directly to people that he had to see. He's not doing that anymore. OR if I do have to make the appointment, when I ask him when would be a good time, he'll actually give me options, instead of just saying "whenever" - and then when I book something that's convenient to the customer, suddenly it's not convenient for him and he'd roll his eyes or complain. That isn't happening anymore.

From the standpoint of the "business manager" - that's a huge relief and I feel like he's more of a team player these days. Maybe the fact that he's in charge of people at his regular job now (not sure his exact status, but he hires people and oversees some from what I gather), perhaps he's looking at it from his own perspective now, and is more aware of such things, and is governing himself accordingly. Don't know - but it sure is a refreshing change!

It's flirting with "personal"... it's mostly still business at times, but when we talk about non-work stuff, it's light, funny and we are both using old sayings and "inside jokes" that we always used to use.

As I've mentioned before, when he starts to tell me something, I stop whatever I'm doing, and I listen attentively, and interject a laugh or whatnot as it's appropriate. He *knows* I'm listening and paying attention and that I care about what he has to say. If he feels that he wants/needs to talk about whatever, I want him to know I'm interested in what he has to say - because I am!

In tiny ways I feel like we're becoming closer, but I'm not sure if he's even realizing it yet. I would think if he wasn't interested in getting closer, he'd be guarded, aloof and keep conversations to a minimum, as well as face to face contact. Being aware of how I feel about him, if those feelings were unwelcome, he would likely try to do stuff to "discourage" those feelings, or at least take the "shine" off. He's not doing that.

He's not running towards me at breakneck speed... but he's not running away either.

He's not making excuses or finding reasons to spend *more* time with me, and he's not initiating email without a reason (sounds *just* like what I'm doing!)... but he is doing small subtle things that impress me, whether he intends to do it or not. I'm working on the same thing.

He also came by my house last night for a moment (I was still at work). DD had left some things at his place that she wanted. He'd left them at the shop, and I would have brought them home in a couple more hours, but when he left to go and see the client, he took the things and dropped them off at home for DD. When I said I'd bring them home, he said something about her wanting to launder the T-shirt he was returning or whatever... I didn't argue - I figured it was a good excuse to have a few extra minutes with the kids, so I smiled and let him go.

So little by little, things are good. I don't know what his "status" is with the GF, whether contact is still as frequent or whatever, and he hasn't said another word about her or the vacation or anything else. I'm not worrying about that right now, just working on "today" and making sure to try to make a love bank deposit each day if I can.

Time will tell if it moves beyond business. Business and personal do intertwine a little bit, but the next logical step (if/when he's ready) would be to take it to 'just personal'. Hard to be patient to see if it goes there, but I'm doing my best.

When we first met we worked together. We lived together for several months before our co-workers were aware of it (except our manager who lived in the same building!). We were always good at keeping business at work, and personal at home - that is to say that for the many years we worked together (at 3 different jobs including our own business), we could leave our issues in their respective places. If we had a disagreement at work, it stayed at work, and at home stayed at home. That helped us stay together for as long as we did, and made working together in the business post-separation and divorce a lot easier. Many never knew we'd split for a long time. I know many people couldn't do this, but we have.

I'm hoping that if/when contact with his GF ceases, he'll turn to me to fill those EN that she may still be filling now.

Any thoughts?

JinGA

Just a thought here... But maybe if he keeps this sort of active engagement with the business going, you could tell him how much you appreciate his help and offer to take him to on a "business dinner" - no kids, no brother. Not romantic, but friendly.

I'm just thinking that it might be good for you two to get some time alone without the distractions of customers or kids. I'd also invite him "spur of the moment". One evening when you know he doesn't have plans already (but maybe you have a baby sitter already on stand-by). And don't ask him days ahead of time either. If he mentions it to the GF, she will make it a point to call him throughout the evening.

Like I said, just a thought...

While I agree with you wholeheartedly - it would be blatently transparent. We don't have "business dinners" and we never really have. When we did "family dinner" night post-separation, we did discuss business if it was appropriate, but we've never had a "business meeting" over dinner. So if I pulled that out of thin air, it would be thinly veiled <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I can do stuff spur of the moment, the kids are teenagers, no babysitter required. If he was around near closing time I could ask, but usually he leaves around 6, and we close at 8. The only time he's around at closing is on weekends, because he works the full day.

The only "snag" would be feeding the kids - granted DD cooks most of the time for me (I have a fabulous DD!) since I work late... she makes supper so we don't eat at 10:00 PM. Wouldn't be a problem for her to fix something for just her brother and herself... so I'm not hiding under that as an excuse - just giving you a better description of what's typical.

I did make that offer (with kids and brother...) a couple of weeks ago when he did stay later than usual during the week to help, explaining that then he wouldn't be stuck fixing his own dinner late. That's when he declined but asked for take-out.

I'm not sure I should keep beating that horse for now. As you mentioned earlier - he may be growing tired of finding reasons not to go, so I don't want to push, but I'll keep the idea in my mind in case I feel like he might be receptive to it. I doubt he'd come back out during the week if he's gone home already, but if he's here near closing one night (again) I might ask him if he wants to go grab a bite with me and see what happens...

I'm keeping eyes and ears open with respect to the GF, so I can get an idea if they are still in contact or not. I think once contact fades, he might be more open to other options <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I understand your hesitancy considering his history of declining other invites, and that it would be out of the norm. FTR, I wasn't really suggesting you call it a "business dinner" per se. To me, that suggests going out and talking about business. I was thinking something more along the lines of, "Hey, I really appreciate all the help around here lately. Especially that matter you took care of with Mr. Smith yesterday. Can I buy you dinner tonight as a token of my appreciation?".

You obviously know your XH better than I do. How well something like that would go over with him, you'd have a better idea of than me.

OK I understand now.

I think his reaction would depend on his remaining attachment to the GF, as silly as that may seem. I have long got the feeling that any social contact with me is perceived (by him and/or by her) as a betrayal. Now, honestly that's not a bad thing - it's not appropriate to socialize alone with another woman, while involved with one. So from that standpoint, I respect that, even if I can't see the logic in staying involved with his GF. He's not presenting any appearance of impropriety, and I think that past lessons have taught him that.

I'd rather him decline my invitations, than play both sides of the street, if that makes any sense. I know people here have said if he doesn't have a ring on his finger, it's fair game, HOWEVER, I do think that the way a person behaves in a dating situation, speaks to how they are or will be in a committed situation. I'd rather play wait and see, than having him flirt with me, and keep the GF on the backburner. Hope that makes sense.

JinGA

Yes, that makes sense. I wonder how clear the line could be drawn between simple friendship and actual intimacy.

Again, just thoughts...

Well that opens an interesting can of worms doesn't it? I suppose much of that depends on how *he* sees it.

From an "optimistic" point of view, he might see it as potentially leading somewhere, and therefore, since he still has a GF, it would not be appropriate.

From a "pessismistic" point of view, he might see it as leading me on, particularly since I've told him now how I feel, and he might not want to get into a situation like that, and he's doing the honourable thing by not sending me that particular message, or taking advantage of the situation.

Could be that he doesn't know - because he *is* still involved with the GF in one way or another, and none of it feels right to him just now, so he's sitting tight to try to figure it out before he changes anything.

I can't find fault with any of those, really.

If/when the GF is finally out of the picture, *then* perhaps he can take a look at things and decide whether he wants to explore things with me again, or look in another direction.

Like I said - while I don't like it and I'm impatient *g*, I'd rather him go about it this way, than do what happened last time I tried to visit the idea of reconciliation, and have me in the back pocket and GF on the front burner. That wasn't going to be right with anybody, and that's why I went ahead with the D at the time (among other reasons).

JinGA

To expand on it a little further... just because I'm feeling analytical today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If he *does* feel like seeing me a bit more might cross that line, then *he's* got to make the decision to put the GF in his past. He does know that I don't go there with being "the OW" or whatever - because we've already visited that before.

I suppose I could examine why he hasn't just let go of the GF completely, and think pessimistically about it, but I'm not quite prepared to go that far just yet, since her departure was only a month or so ago, and contact hasn't waned yet. He's not a quitter or a leaver... I have every expectation that she will be the one to end it for once and for all eventually - because that's just how he is, and he tends to hang on to whatever he's got. That's how he was in the M. Not always a healthy way to be, but that is how he is and I accept that. That trait has good points and bad points, depending on the circumstances.

JinGA

So does everything hinge on the element of whatever leftover R there is with his GF?

It seems that despite the apparent "wait and see" philosophy you've taken regarding that situation, you have taken some pretty bold actions to help influence his choices. I get this sense that you will stick your head out a little, then pull it back in - over and over again.

Could it be that he's getting mixed signals from you? Right now it seems like you two are in a dance. What would be the harm, at this point, if you were to have an open and honest conversation with him? Something where you tell him flat out what your thoughts are and asking him what is going through his mind? Is he still holding a torch for her, and if so, why? What does she have to offer him anymore?

It could just be that he needs a kick in the @ss. Is he the kind of man that responds to that? I know I do. Make him shake his head like the figurative cartoon character who just got his bell rung.

Once again, just more thoughts. Not trying to talk you into anything.

This is the kind of meaty discussion I'm needing right now - because I need another perspective - and a man's perspective is a great place to start, because I can only think like a woman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yes and no. Yes insofar as I think that if I make bold moves too soon and he is still carrying the torch for the GF, I'm just going to be shot down because of that.

I guess if he's got "those" feelings left for me it shouldn't really matter if he's carrying any torch or not - just that the last time I visited the subject of R, he was hot and heavy with the GF (it was still new) and I didn't like the outcome - so yeah I'm my own worst enemy in that regard.

And I'm afraid of an effort to talk about things turning into a confrontation. Last time it was "pick one"... and I don't want it to be like that again - although in a way I guess I am asking him to pick one. I may be at an advantage this time - or I may not be... but I guess in the long run I do need to know where I stand.

I'm just afraid that if I try too soon I may not get an "accurate" answer. Which sounds lame - but that's how I'm feeling, lame or not.

You know what? I don't feel SAFE yet (to borrow a word from your thread on D&D). I'm still trying to build the friendship up a bit more and gauge his response to that, before sticking my neck out and seeing if it gets cut off.


That's one way of looking at it, one I hadn't considered. I haven't pulled back, it's more like I'm testing the waters and haven't decided I'm ready to jump in yet. The bold move a week ago was not forced, exactly, but I felt I needed to put it out there at that moment and I did. He hasn't taken step forward exactly either - but he hasn't pulled back either. So yeah, it's definitely a dance of some sort - I just don't know if we're listening to the same song yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm sticking my neck out and leaving it there to see if he cuts my head off. He hasn't yet. But he hasn't "kissed me" either (figuratively in this context, and not literally either!)


It could be. When she announced her departure, I offered him moral support. AFTER she was gone I helped him with a small loan, which he has repaid. (I wasn't going to help HER although I've offered help to her FOR her kids in the past - her kids are victims of her actions, IMO). I've given him encouragement and positive reinforcement when he's told me some positive things he's done (paying off old credit card). On those I've been consistent. No love busters - even when the vacation discussion sprang up. So I wouldn't say I'm advancing and retreating - just that I've advanced but held my ground, but haven't advanced enough yet.


That's the $64 question. I told him how I feel, but I didn't add to it. I didn't say I wanted to get back together, for him to come home - that would have been too much, too fast. I figured that once he knew that much, he could decide whether he returns those feelings and if so, to act upon them - or if not, not to. So far he hasn't done much differently. I don't know if he needs a big neon sign - I know I do sometimes.

He doesn't like to be pushed - if there is ONE thing I've learned, that's it. But then he's not the sort, IMO, to run out and grab what he wants either. So at this point I honestly don't know. Part of me wonders if he's waiting for me to show some "fight" to get us back together? Part of me thinks that if I do show some spunk, it might scare him right back to her. That's my main confusion right now.

Ugh I hate confusion...

JinGA

Jin - I'm sorry, I think I recall reading that you had attempted to push him into making a "her or me" choice before, and that it didn't turn out well.

I just figure that at this point, what have you got to lose? There is no bigger signal in my book than the old ILY statement. I'm a fairly pragmatic guy and I have this notion that a straight forward and matter of fact conversation might be considered. Something like, "Look... I don't know if that ILY comment from you was for real or not, but I meant it when I said it last week. Now that I've hung it out there, I'd like to know what you think about it. I can see a lot of good reasons for us to give things another shot. However, I will understand if you would rather still work things out with the Money Grubbing Baby Maker. I'd just like to know so that I can get on with my life." Go all in as the poker players say.

Again, I'm not necessarily recommending this as a course of action. I'm just throwing it out there to see if it has any feasability. Brain storming doncha' know.

Well things are different now, versus last time, to be sure. Much has changed since then - including ourselves.

When I tried before the D, it was a last ditch desperation effort to hold my family together. Desperation being the operative word.

He didn't say "no" then, he said, "maybe". But he made it clear he had no intention to abandon the GF at that time, or even take a step back from both of us to make a decision. Nothing "happened" between us beyond a couple of conversations about it - no SF, not even a kiss. He never made an attempt beyond that with me, and when I pressed him to choose one, he got angry and defensive, and I got the whole babblespeak about how "she" loves him how he is, how "she" made him happy, blah blah. How he'd changed because of "her". That was the last straw and I could see by his actions at the time (paying her rent instead of his bills) the writing on the wall, so I went for the D to protect child support etc. (there is no "legal separation" in my state - you're either married or divorced, but you have to live in a "bona fide state of separation" for a fixed amount of time - which we had more than exceeded.

I let him know I was going ahead with the D. He showed up in court (alone, whew - he'd flown his GF in for that week - I don't think he looks at the calendar when he books stuff).

Then I got a venomous email filled with stuff like I only want him to be happy on my terms, when he said he wasn't ready I became cold and venomous and that once I'd discovered the "loan" (read:gift) he'd made he became the heartless [email]b@stard[/email] all over again etc. etc.

It was angry, it was hurtful, it was full of pain.

In the same paragraph then, he said on one hand there was hope in his heart that he'd be able to come home someday, and the next moment he said he knew that would never happen.

He wrote that letter one day after the divorce was final. Both our feelings were still raw, to say the least.

Of course in that exchange I said it was over forever too, in response to his letter.

Then a few weeks later, he spent Christmas with us as a family, and bought us a new TV...I was shocked. He'd also spent Thanksgiving with us as a family (D was on Dec. 7 so you know the timeline).

Right after that once I knew the GF was moving here, I ended all family activities - there was no point in spreading any more false hope at that point.

Then about 5 weeks after that, he moved her here.

So leading up to the D, he was also the king of mixed signals. He enjoyed spending time with all of us as a family, his depression was under control successfully, and he was behaving like the good man that I'd married (minus the romance), so when I approached him to reconcile, I was hopeful that we could save it before it was too late.

Unfortunately he was fogged in (and snow-jobbed) by the GF, so that undermined me. He couldn't choose so he was going to eat cake for a while, and I didn't want to do that, so I put my own foot down.

That was a dark time. We still managed to work together for another 6 months, until pressure from the GF to quit, and other money issues, made him quit the business and walk away.

When circumstances necessitated *somebody* (ie the co-owner, him) to return in January I didn't even need to ask - once I told him what was going on, he said, "I'll be there tomorrow!"

That was mid-January. Mid-February was when GF made her second trip back to her home state, this time for 6 weeks. Then she returned the end of March, and 3 days later she announced she was going back for good, and she left April 18.

I highly doubt that XH's time spent in the business had anything to do with her reasons. He has responsibilities and obligations and she knew this when she started up with him.

Personally I think she saw the words, "business (co)owner" and saw dollar signs. Unfortunately the business is still struggling to turn a profit, so that myth was shattered fairly quickly.

I think once she realized the money tree was stripped bare, she bolted. She didn't even wait for her kids to finish the school year...

But now I'm wasting time talking about her...

So that's a bit of "history" about the last time I "went there".

Realistically, whatever is left between himself and the GF will burn out in time. I think he knows this on some level, or he'd be making arrangements to move there, not just a "vacation". Time will tell if the vacation out there even happens.

Even if it's totally over between them, and even if I approach him to talk about it again, it could well be that it's over for him and there's no going back. I'm afraid of that but I'm going to have to find that out sooner or later, or live my life wondering, "what if?". That sucks too.

I don't know if he'd take the first step -ie ask me out on a date. 20-something years ago, I liked him and I asked him over to dinner at my apartment, and he accepted. Then he invited me to his place the next time.

When we met, I checked him out :-P and he saw me checking him out (hey I was 17!). He knew right away that I liked him but he let me make the first move.

I wonder if that much remains unchanged about him?

JinGA

Pride goes before a crash and a smart BS will know how to ensure the WS crashes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is ok to wish for the demise of the Ws. That may allow for your H to escape.

L.

Please elaborate?

You think I should wait til it crashes and burns (for good) with the GF?

I saw mention before about when people hit rock-bottom that's when they open their eyes - is that what you mean?

JinGA