Well this morning I sent him a short email asking how his shoulders are and if he slept well, and that I hope he's OK.

I also thanked him for letting the kids and I come over on Monday to swim, and that it was a nice way to spend some time and cool off.

I haven't heard back from him - I just sent the email a short time ago (there hasn't been time to respond). Not sure if he will respond - and I won't pester him again - if he reads it he'll know I'm thinking about him, hope he's feeling better and that I *appreciate* the favour he did for us the other day.

JinGA

I just read your short Withdrawal thread. I don't think there's anything more you can do at this point but to sit tight and wait it out. If it's over between them, you'll find out one way or another. He'll either come crashing down or he'll feel a weight come off of his shoulders. Maybe a bit of both? Also, the circumstances of the break up would obviously have an effect. Could he have told her it was over? Did she tell him she's got someone new in her life now? Perhaps she sent him a note or email saying to never call her again - no real reason given. Who knows at this point? My advice; don't speculate too much. Try and ignore that part of your life right now and keep your ears open for if/when he's ready to talk. It won't do you any good to worry about it.

Thank again, his mood could have nothing to do with her. Maybe he's having a tough time at work. Maybe there is no outside catalyst other than his clinical depression.

Thanks SeaBird - you're right about all of it.

He did pop in for 30 minutes or so tonight. I mentioned that I'd emailed to see how he was doing, he said he never got to it...

He seemed OK - said he slept all day yesterday. He didn't sound congested today - so not sure what that's about but not going to fester on it (see, I am listening to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

I still think he's a bit "off".

No hints from him about anything else though. I usually don't bring her name up - he does occasionally - like he mentioned some TV show she used to watch recently (and I didn't roll my eyes!). He doesn't bring her up very often though.

Trying to be patient and see what happens.

JinGA

Jin - IMO, people (men?) only stay in bad or dysfunctional relationships (NOT Ms!) for a couple of reasons; easy and available sex (sorry to be crass), and a fear of loneliness. In other words, being with the wrong person is still better than being alone.

If your assessment of their R is in any way accurate, both of those elements are quickly becoming moot. One sooner than the other for obvious reasons. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Well I sometimes felt that way in our M. He was miserable and I felt like he was too lazy to fix it or move on. I know now that it was more about his depression (that was as yet undiagnosed and untreated at that time).

I wouldn't say our M was bad (and I know you weren't saying that... ) - if you were to compare my M and his R, we had (have) a good home, awesome kids, we made a *LIFE* together.

With his "R", he worked, he supported them, he came home and cleaned up after them - he did all the giving and she did all the taking - or that's how it appears to me (and to others, including his own brother).

I think he settled with GF - that's all he could get and he took it. Speaks to his self-esteem too.

I think at this point, the lack of SF as well as loneliness have to be wearing on him - a telephone can't keep you warm at night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

That's just it. Remember the messy R that I had prior to my M that I mentioned in my thread? Initially, I was only in it because of the SF. She saw me as a safe place because of what she'd been through with her XBF, but couldn't process. Her... I don't know, lack of respect for herself and the frustrated attitude I had toward women at the time, combined to make me rather cold and aloof. One of those Rs that confirm to men that women want to be treated like ****. An immature notion and not one that I believe now, but I was 22 or 23 at the time... Anyway, I finally realized that I had pushed it too far. I came to understand that the hardhearted jerk I was actually trying to be was a mistake. I had treated her poorly and felt terrible for it. As soon as that happened, I went out of my way to treat her better. It was like we switched roles suddenly. Now I was the clingy nice one and she was mean. REALLY mean (not that I didn't deserve it). We lasted like that for another 2 months. I think she even went back to her XBF a few times during that period. Like I said, it was a mess.

Long story, but the point was that we were both vulnerable and only stayed together because we served a couple of each others' needs. There was no real enthusiasm behind it. I liked the frequent SF, and she liked that I made her feel safe (as much of a jerk as I was, I was still better than the XBF - that's just sad).

Your XH seems to only fill a couple of his GF's needs, and she only fills a couple of his. It doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of enthusiasm behind it, and now that they're apart, nobody's ENs are being filled.

I agree with you that it's just a matter of time unless he makes a big move to be with her. There aren't too many mistakes that can be seen from 2000 miles away, but this sounds like one of them.

Interesting insight, SeaBird. A lot of what you're saying makes sense.

What I could never figure out was the "double standard". He accepted stuff in his R, that would have made him furious if I'd behaved that way in the M. Everything from work ethic (or lack thereof), to domestic support to parenting issues. If I "parented" our kids the way she doesn't (that's not a typo), he'd have had me declared unfit and assumed full custody and terminated my parental rights.

A lot of what appeared outwardly in their R (and I don't have intimate knowledge of anything else - but the outward stuff that everybody could see), flew so much in the face of his values, his beliefs, his notions of what is good and appropriate... it's like his whole value system took a vacation.

I don't think he could have found somebody MORE opposite to myself. Perhaps that's what he was looking for? Something as far removed from me as he could get? If that was his goal, he sure as heck succeeded. I don't know - not much of it made sense to me - or to others in our circle of friends and family. Unfortunately for him I don't think anybody felt comfy enough to actually speak up and tell him to give his head a shake.

I've got great friends and family - and they are close enough to me, that if I was in a situation, they'd be the first to kick me in the pants if I'd got myself into a bad situation. I thank God for bringing such people into my life - they keep me grounded <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately I don't think XH has anyone close enough to him that loves him enough to actually do that. Except me - but I'd have been the last person he'd have listened to. In the beginning when he wrote her rent check instead of paying his own bills, I warned him to be careful. He told me I didn't understand, it was just a "loan" (uh-huh....). I told him I believed I understood completely, that it was a GIFT, and I never said another word. He gave me the whole "she's my soulmate" junk and I just let it go.

Sometimes we have to let people fall on their faces, as painful as that is.

I fell on my own face too - my own doing, and I'm more educated for the experience, but I didn't fall into the trap of being financially abused or anything like that. I tried to move on, it didn't work, I ended it, and I'm over it. I'm responsible for *all* of that where I am concerned.

We'll see what today brings. He is taking our kids to the library this evening, something he does every other week (he used to do it every week...) and they may stay at his place tonight since school is out. Maybe that will do *him* some good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He said, "See you tomorrow" meaning he'll stop by the shop - but if he's got the kids, I'm not so sure he will. We'll see.

Honestly the way he's being right now, I think he needs some time to wallow a bit. Let him process it, whatever he's going through right now - and we'll see what happens going forward after that.

JinGA

Or... Perhaps he merely rationalized and justified and downright ignored those behaviors that he normally wouldn't have liked. The question is, why would he do that? Why would he stuff his ideals like that? The answer could be because he had a couple of really important ENs at the time that more were important to him.

I don't recall if Harley says this himself in BC, but I think that our ENs can be dynamic and change with the circumstances. Or at least their order of importance changes. After you two split, he might have been willing to shelve a lot of his ideals for the sake of getting some of these newly important ENs taken care of.


I don't know if people really make conscious decisions like that in life. Seems unlikely. I'm inclined to believe that he was in a vulnerable state and ran across a woman with very little self respect in terms of own body and her own family, and she saw him as a bit of a safe place (financially - at least for a while).


I'd like to say the same thing, but the truth is, we're all adults here and sometimes we are loathe to really come down on the other adults in our lives regardless of what we think about their decisions. Let me ask you this; How do you think he would have reacted if his brother or parents said, "What are you doing?!?! You are too good for her! You would have been better off with Jin." Comments like that can backfire to a lot of folks.


You know, I've read Richard Bach's "A Bridge Across Forever" and I still just don't get the idea of a "soul mate". I just don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Absolutely! As painful as it is to watch, it sure beats actually being the one doing the falling.


Sounds like you are well ahead of the game to me.


I think that's right. I would have to think that his only natural reaction is to start filling the void that the GF left behind with family and friends.

That makes sense in a weird sort of way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Willing to overlook things in order to satisfy his own immediate needs.


True, puzzling, but true. I wouldn't have thought he'd completely take leave of who he is, but that's what it looks like at times. He still held me to a higher standard where the kids are concerned though - no problem I can meet or exceed his standards on my own, quite easily.


I'd agree with that. 100%.


I can understand that - but if you saw a family member being totally used, wouldn't it be hard to keep your mouth shut? Maybe women are different with each other that way - I've told good girlfriends to watch out or be careful if I saw a red flag - it can be done tactfully and in a loving way. Of course people will do whatever they want to, but if I was into something and somebody close to me had a discreet word with me about it, I'd certainly consider their point of view. I may disagree and proceed anyway - but I'd certainly take it under advisement and keep my eyes open - but hey that's just me and how I interact with my friends and family. Maybe I'm "different" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I think the term is over-used. I won't say I don't believe in it, I just don't think it can only ever apply to one person, and it can be just as situational as anything else. It's more like "infatuation".


That's true. Still, it's hard to be a spectator - but it's like a train wreck - you care so you feel compelled to watch, and maybe be there to pick up the aftermath.


Well I gotta own my own "stuff". I'm far from perfect, and still very much a work in progress. Mistakes are made, but lessons are learned, and in that there is a purpose.

[/quote]

And that's what I've been trying to do, as much as he will allow it. I'm respecting his boundaries and not pushing, but within what he'll allow I'm trying my best to be attractive to him, safe to him, a good friend to him, and maybe eventually he'll look upon me as "partner" again. Time will tell, but he's still got much to process to catch up to where I'm at.

JinGA

Today he came by before picking the kids up. He's still a bit distant/aloof. He worked on some stuff that needed attention, was there longer than usual because of that, then he took the kids for the night.

We chatted a little bit - but he's not as open as he had been. Something isn't right, I just can't quite put my finger on it. It's not awkward, it's just "different" and not in a favourable way.

JinGA

How long does it typically take for him to get over his "off" times?

Normally he's fine by the next day. He processes "whatever" and gets over it.

JinGA

Then this might be more than just just an off time. There might be some dynamic in his life that's disturbing him. Any reason to think it's you? If not, then it's his drama (stuff) alone. I'd give him a wide berth - emotionally speaking.

I think he's likely feeling conflicted, probably about the issues surrounding his GF (vacation, moving and whatever other variables may be going on there). I think that's a good thing, insofar as he needs to think long and hard about what he may be planning to do, because it affects much more than just him.

I have no reason to think it's me - I've done nothing in recent days any differently than I have been doing. It's been a couple of weeks since I put one of my cards on the table - unless he's thinking about that and he's withdrawing a bit because of it, but he hasn't been hostile or awkward toward me, in fact other than not being as chatty, the changes are rather subtle. Usually when he's having a "bad day" he's got a look on his face that anybody can spot, he's noticeably withdrawn and moody. This is a lot less obvious that that, and perhaps he's masking it so I don't ask questions.

Other than asking him how he's doing - and he says he's fine, or he's sore (shoulders etc), he hasn't indicated that he's having any problems. I ask because I care - and if he says he's OK, I accept that and don't press, even if I think he's not telling me. No LB here.

Usually when he's having an issue, everybody around him knows it.

I did mention the other day that I could use a bit *more* help around the shop - he sort of shrugged and blew it off, and I didn't press. I needed to ask - it's up to him whether he rises to the occasion or doesn't.

He did stay about 2 hours last night - but that was because he was involved in a repair that required him to stay to see it through.

I'm unsure if he'll stop by today being Friday - however I've got an issue with our DS that I need to discuss with him. I'll likely drop him an email today at some point and tell him what's going on, and ask him what we should do about it (ah the joy of teenagers...). I think both he and I need to have a chat with DS - but I'll ask his input on it and we'll go from there.

We'll be working together all weekend - we'll see what happens this time around. He'll be out with a customer issue Sat. AM for a while, and he's got a job scheduled for after closing on Sunday. I've offered to help him with that and he shrugged - he may take me up on it (more hands make work lighter), he may not.

JinGA

Well I sent XH an email concerning DS. He has responded in kind on the issue, and I've just replied to him. Dialog is good and we appear to be on the "same page" as to what to do about the issue at hand.

He's got the kids - they went to his place last night, and if he wishes, they can stay there for the weekend (we hadn't discussed it - but I'm flexible on that, always). I've asked him if it's convenient, to come over to our home tonight with the kids, to have a chat with DS about the issue. I've also got some stuff to chat with DD about. XH has also offered some solution options to the problem at hand, which I've accepted with gratitude, and in my reply I proposed a plan to implement them.

I'm glad we're on the same page concerning this issue, as it's a fairly serious one (I found evidence of porn downloads on DS's computer, and he was online without permission - we have a removable USB card that I keep and give to them when they can have supervised Internet access - but DS has helped himself to the card when I'm asleep. That stops NOW...). XH and I are communicating now by email, to discuss our own take on the situation and the best way for *both* of us to address it with DS, as well as measures to take in our homes to prevent this sort of activity in the future. XH is an IT professional and he's got several computers at his home and we've had discussions before about unsupervised access by our children. I'm quite sure he's a bit more lax than I am in that regard, but he does respect my wishes and concerns about their safety and security while online.

It's a crappy issue to have to deal with - but it was bound to come about sooner or later, and it's a good time for me to show XH that I can discuss an issue rationally, calmly and without LB.

The last time we had a discussion concerning our kids' internet activities (he was allowing them access and setting up yahoo accounts with their real names etc.) I flew off the handle about it. Perhaps it was justified to a point, but I could have and should have, handled it a lot better. The end result was XH getting defensive, me love-busting and exercising veto power. Ugly. I was particularly upset at that time because XH should have known better. He is in IT, he works for an email security company, and he and I have had many issues in the M concerning porn, and he's pretty liberal himself about putting his own personal information online. He always incorporates his real name into user IDs, and anybody with half a brain could figure out where he lives, who he works for (he states it outright), and at one point, our kids' names and ages, from his myspace page. Once I went ballistic about the kids' info being up there, he took it down, but all his own personal information remains. Careless, IMO. I would have thought someone in his line of work would be particularly in tune with the iminent dangers of the Internet, particularly where kids are concerned.

Anyway - that was last year. I can't do anything about what he posts about himself, but as long as he respects my wishes concerning the kids' info, there's not much else I can do about that.

Not going to do that again - have a huge fight over any of it. It did manage to get a resolution to the issue at the time, but it was the hard way of doing things. My bad for the way I handled it. The situation this time is more serious, but thusfar from our first exchanges we're handling it like adults.

It's a particularly sensitive issue between us because XH's porn habit was a significant factor in the demise of our M. He knows in no uncertain terms how I feel about it. At one point after we separated he told me he'd broken that habit - but I don't know if he's kept away from it - but at this point in time that's his own business, and I trust that he wouldn't allow our kids to be exposed to it in his home. I have not made any accusations either. It's easy enough for DS to find that on his own, when he had "unauthorized" access to the internet at my home. In fact, I doubt that XH had anything to do with DS's online adventures. And, regardless of what XH's opinions are about his own use of adult material, we're 100% in agreement that our kids should not be exposed to it.

Like I said, it's a crummy situation to be faced with - talking to DS about appropriate sexual curiosity for his age, and the inappropriateness of porn, unsupervised internet access and such - however, if something good can come from something bad (and it usually does if we work to find it!) It may be a good thing that XH and I are having this particular discussion at this time. I can demonstrate to him that I can discuss a situation that's very sensitive, without love-busting, that we can present a united front where these issues are concerned, and work together to parent our children.

He offered to set up some filtering software or device on my router at home, and I've thanked him for that and I will accept it. He's also agreed to block online access when he isn't at home. That's good.

Since I started this post, XH and I have exchanged a few emails and we're more or less on the same page. The only thing I disagree with is that XH was planning to take the kids to a movie tonight - and wait til tomorrow to have the talk with DS, until after he can examine DS's computer (and any that DS uses at XH's place). I can wait for the talk but I don't think giving him a special outing (the movie - it's a rarity with us) is a good thing, given he's about to have a "Come to Jesus" talk...I've expressed my opinion about that but since it's his time with the kids, I'll defer to him on that - I'm awaiting his reply.

Overall the conversation has been good though - productive, constructive - no defensiveness on either part, no squabbling between us. That's awesome, IMO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gawd - dealing with teenagers... I can feel the grey hairs popping up to replace the good hair I've already pulled out.

I think I want a drink...

JinGA

He's in IT security and he puts his personal info online? That surprises me.

Can I ask how old your DS is? I'm trying to remember how I was when I started to really notice girls.

DS is 13. DD is nearly 15. Life is over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I was surprised that XH is as liberal as he is with info. Of course when he was having his online EA he was very anonymous and so was his "friend".

JinGA

DS is 13??? LMAO! Sorry - I'm not laughing at you, but I think that he's well within the age where the idea of "nekkid girls" has an appeal. Mind you, I don't advocate him seeing them, just that it's natural for him to be looking into the subject.

I am referring to this comment specifically:
"...talking to DS about appropriate sexual curiosity for his age." I would simply say that him looking at it is definitely inappropriate. The curiosity on his part is entirely natural. Again, IMO.

I do agree that talking to him and restricting his behavior is entirely correct.

Oh we both agree that the curiosity/hormone factor is normal. That's where the father/son chat comes in. In our day it was sneaking around with National Geographics or Playboy/Playgirl. As I said to XH in our email exchange, when I was about DS' age I found some pretty interesting books ("manuals" LOL no pictures, just "instructions"!) in my Mom's closet... so I totally understand how that works - and I remember how I was as a teenager - God forbid... that's scary enough! Still the world is a lot different now than those days and XH and I both agree that while the activites are 'normal' as compared to in our day, the material (internet vs. Playboy) is much more intense and while neither is appropriate for kids (or IMO adults but that's another post!)... this type of thing can lead to much larger problems if unchecked.

As for restricting internet activity - they both broke house rules, and as such will both be dealt with. The porn issue is one thing - but both kids gained internet access behind my back and without permission. I haven't found anything incriminating on my DD (yet) but DS set up email account and other stuff (mostly benign online gaming stuff) and through googling his screen name, from bits and pieces gathered from various sites he's registered on, I've found enough personal information on him to be scary.

I'm going to compose an email to him (he doesn't yet know that I know about his email account!) and show the links and information I've gathered - to SHOW him how easy it is for people to locate him just based on the tidbits he lets out. I've found his real given name, last initial, age, birthdate, school... that's enough for any online predator to make "familiar" contact.

I'll send him this email AFTER he's been busted and spoken to. I want him to see just how much he does not realize he's putting himself at risk.

Right now I'm feeling like a crappy parent. I'm not - I did discover it and I'm nipping it in the bud, but I feel stupid for trusting my kids more than I should have. It didn't only happen at our home, it's happened under XH roof too and he didn't know about the online accounts either - but he's going to check the computer(s) that the kids have access to and let me know of his findings and we'll compare notes.

I'm hoping he stops here on his way home - I didn't get replies to my last emails. In about 15 minutes he'll be on the commute home so I'll call him and ask him to stop so we can discuss how we're going to go about this in a bit more detail.

I think dealing with both kids together on the trust/access issue should be done first. Then I think XH should take DS aside privately to discuss the "other". Both kids are busted, and I hope that XH considers what I said about taking them to a movie. Still - his time with them, his call - but if he does take them, my kids will be told that it was against my better judgement and while I respect his decision, they should count their lucky stars because henceforth the party is over.

JinGA

Absolutely agree with you about how times have changed. I did my share of sneaking around with Playboys and other material when I was about that age and even earlier. It began with mere curiosity and expanded into actual "interest" as I grew into full blown puberty. The difference obviously between then and now was availability. The occasional Playboy pilfered from someone's dad's closet was a real coup. But the advent of the Internet, pay-per-view TV, and VHS/DVD has really changed the dynamic. Your caution is well-founded IMO.

On a technical level, if you are running Win2K, XP, or Vista, you can set up separate accounts for the kids with highly restricted access. You can also customize any sort of third party nanny software to specifically restrict based on the account. It might be a good thing that you had a chance to observe their surfing behavior on the sly. It gives you some good insight on what they're doing and who they're corresponding with so that you can focus on what to restrict in the future.