.... and then you THANK HIM in some small sexy way for helping you out

next time

thank him in a more provocative way

OK - more or less did that last week with the kids/internet issue that we had. He sort of assumed a few things about my opinion that were opposite of his, but in reality, we weren't as opposed as he thought we were.

So I made myself clear in a non-confrontational way - we handled the situation with the kids together...

This time it was not the typical way we've handled things in the past - we didn't argue about it first, and I did thank him more than once, for "us" being able to handle the situation in such a positive way.

Now the follow up to that may have happened last night if he had the talk with our son. When he arrives (I'm at work now... but he's not here yet - but I'm early), I will ask him how things went. Assuming all went well, I will thank him again for taking the time to deal with this *with* me as parents to our kids.

Is that sorta kinda what you mean?

I'll have to ponder other conflict... for many things we're on the same page opinion-wise. And for some things that we're opposed about, it wouldn't be like me to do an about-face. Although last week's situation with the kids probably did surprise him a bit that I wasn't as "my way or the highway" as he may have assumed.

I was actually pretty proud of both of us over that whole incident. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Well it all just blew up in my face, sort of.

When he arrived, I asked him how the talk with DS went. It went rather well. They talked about other issues besides the one at hand - and it sounded much like XH and I had the same opinions and communicated the same ideas to DS about those issues. Good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Then my friend called me just as the conversation was getting a bit deeper (how DS is like me and DD is like him emotionally and how best to talk to them about certain things etc.) XH went inside, I kept my conversation brief with my friend and I intended to return to that conversation with XH. When I approached him, he was on his cell with his headset - I didn't realize he was on the phone - so when I walked up (I hadn't said anything yet), he told the other party (undoubtedly GF) to hang on, I said, "When you're done on the phone." So he nodded and I left the room. I returned about 10 minutes later, he was still on the phone, so I said, "Just please let me know when you're done."

A few minutes later, he came to me to say he was here. When my friend called, she'd reminded me of an outing she wanted the kids and I to join her and her family on next weekend. I'd mentioned this to XH a while back - so I asked him, "Remember how so-and-so has invited the kids and I to the amusement park? It's next Saturday - can you cover for me?" He said sure, as long as he had our other help - which I'm not sure if we will or not - but he said that was fine (Whew - more good news). I mentioned also since it's Father's Day weekend, I would be happy to drop off the kids at his place afterward, or whatever arrangement suited him. He shrugged, he had no "plan" so he was indicating that was fine and he was flexible.

Great so far, right?

Well here's where it all went to he11 in an handbasket.

Right from that conversation, he blurted out that he still plans to make that road trip, and he wants to take the kids with him. I looked right at him and calmly said, "No." He threw up his arms and asked, "Why?" I repeated, "No." Now typically this sort of confrontation would throw me head first into LB, DJ and all kinds of crappy stuff. I was calm. I wanted to just leave it at, "No" but he pressed.

I told him that the children have told me that while they'd love the "road trip" aspect of the trip, they do not want to see the GF. He said that wasn't what they've told him. I calmly told him that they did not want to hurt his feelings, and I understood that, so the answer is no. He asked why they wouldn't want to see her. I calmly told him that they are angry with her for hurting him. He threw up his arms again, and started calling me a bitter f-ing b*tch and this was all about me and I've been bitter to him forever, and a whole tirade of stuff.

I didn't throw it back. I said if that was how he felt, that was how he felt, but I did not see it that way, but if that was how he saw it, that's how he saw it (no point in telling somebody their feelings are wrong). I didn't raise my voice, I did not dismiss his feelings (even though IMO they are unfounded - I've done nothing angry or bitter, he's just choosing to see it that way).

He also accused me of coming between him and his time with the kids - which couldn't be further from the truth - I have not refused him any access since I can remember, and the ONLY time it's ever happened was when the kids had plans of their own, and I have always done my best to accommodate. So when he spewed out that accusation, I calmly asked, "How?" He said that because I wouldn't let them go on this trip, I was keeping him from his kids. To that I replied, "If you wanted to take them home to visit your family, you'd have my blessing." That's when the next round of expletives started. I didn't react, I didn't call him names, I just stood there calmly. He knows that he's full of it with that accusation. He's got ample time with the kids and he knows this. He can take them whenever and wherever he wants - with *this* exception. He's known for almost a month that I was not keen on this idea, the kids told him I would "probably say no" - but he decided to just explode over it today.

He carried on with the obscenities, and I just walked away and told him I didn't need to be spoken to like that (boundary!). He said fine, came back inside behind me, picked up his keys and things, and left. As he was leaving he sputtered more venomous obscenities, and I just said, "I love you too." (OK perhaps that was a LB - but I said it calmly).

2 minutes after he left, he phoned. I was tempted not to pick up, but I did. He said, "And you can forget about next Saturday too!" I simply replied a cheery, "OK!" and hung up. Not going to argue... it takes 2 to make a fight, and I'm not into participating.

This is how he "punishes" me. He left the store during open hours when his presence is needed and expected here. Now he's going to further punish myself and OUR kids, by denying me the time off to spend a day with them. I will not fight back by doing the same - it sucks to drag the kids into the middle.

DS is still at his place - God only knows what kind of crap he's spewing about me to DS - but DS and I will chat about that later. DS has been the more open with his feelings about the GF - he's told me more than once he just "wants her out of the picture" - I did not tell XH this.

I called DD to see if XH had called her to spew. She said no. I filled her in on the conversation. She did tell me that she feels I've put them in an awkward position because she's worried that XH will question them about how they really feel about GF. I told her she didn't have to tell him if she didn't want to, or she could write him a letter. I also told her she could do the same with me if she's angry at me.

I didn't relay anything to XH that is not true. The kids don't want to be in the middle, and if he won't see that, then I had to enlighten him about it.

He's angry - he's LBing, DJing and being punative. And know what? I'm not taking it personally. I'm a bit upset about it - we went from having a really good conversation to almost having a fight, and now he's in a really crappy mood over all this, back to blaming me for all life's problems, and it wouldn't surprise me if I got a poison pen email from GF in the next little while (which I will ignore, just like I did the last time she did that).

In a way I'm glad that conversation is over. I still don't know when he's going - he hasn't even shared that much with me but I assume it's around July 1.

I'm a bit worried about his state of mind around DS right now - but DS can handle it, and the kids and I will discuss the whole matter again when DS comes home tonight.

XH is angry - but I don't think his anger is so much directed at me as he'd like me to believe. I think he's feeling conflicted. He's making a choice right now between spending his vacation with his kids, and his GF. Well that will well prepare him for the next choice he'll have to make if he's still entertaining thoughts of moving out to where GF is. If he's conflicted about this, wait til crunch time. I think I'm in for a rough ride - if I allow it.

All in all I think I handled things pretty well. Other than the "ILYT" comment which was sort of said calmly but he'll interpret it as snyde (and perhaps at that moment it was a bit snyde). I didn't run down the GF. The only thing I said about her was that the children are angry with her for hurting him - and that's true. I kept my opinions out of it completely.

I think I may have taken a huge step backward here - insofar as he made some major LB withdrawals today, and now he's in a serious state of withdrawl from me.

I'm not going to bring the subject up again and I don't know if this means he's just not going to show up at work here anymore or what it means. We don't open again til Tuesday, so he may just chill out between now and then. It's hard to say. In the bigger picture, we went through something similar last year, and he got over it.

And worst case scenario - if/when it all hits the fan with his GF, he'll know I did the right thing in keeping the kids here with me. He may never admit it - but he'll know, and that's enough.

I could use some moral support on this one - I'm feeling kind of crappy about the whole mess.

JinGA

This is how he "punishes" me. He left the store during open hours when his presence is needed and expected here. Now he's going to further punish myself and OUR kids, by denying me the time off to spend a day with them. I will not fight back by doing the same - it sucks to drag the kids into the middle.

Is it possible to not open the store the day that you want to spend with your kids?

Instead of being held hostage to it, I would opt for not showing up at all.

He can deal with it when that happens.

committed

You got my support on all things expect the ILY as he was walking out the door. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I understand why you said it, but it is salt on the wound to the WS in him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

When you meet with the children let them know that while YOU don't want them in the middle and their REAL father doesn't either, this OTHER character does. So given the set of circumstances, come up with the best plan for you and the children. Let them know you are a family and need their support to make decisions as a family. Also that you will support them as well.

Come up with a defensive plan on dealing with the WS. A code word to signal trouble is also a good idea.

Btw, the WS who gets angry like that is a good sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You can reverse babble and let them WS know that his vulgar language makes him UNSAFE to be around, especially for the children. ANOTHER reason why he can't have them. See using their own stuff against them is quite effective. That way he can't give you his guilt and anger. You will effectively give it back. That's another good thing.

Keep up the good work,

Hugz,
L.

L.

You know - if it was *anything* else, I'd agree with you. However we own a retail store and being closed on the busiest day of the week is suicide for the business. He knows this - and this isn't the first time he's bailed on me like this. When we were married and on the skids, he did it often. Once I did close the store and go home - but it's not good for business to have to explain to customers that you had an "emergency" (without details).

I could do it - and I have thought about it... putting a note on the door saying, "If you need something urgenly, please call >>>>>insert XH cell phone number here<<<<<" but that would be unfair to my *customers* who don't deserve to be dragged into my domestic affairs. In short, the business cannot afford a "day off"...

JinGA

Yeah - I know I shouldn't have said that - but *otherwise* I think I used remarkable restraint, given my past "techniques". I've grown a lot - but still not quite there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I think I've been working on that all along. I'm quite honest and open with them, and they know that I have their best interets at heart. After all, none of this is about XH or about me - it's what is best for *them*. Unfortunately XH seems to be the only one that doesn't quite see it that way.


Can you elaborate on that a bit please?


Not sure I know why - but I think I agree. Can you offer some insight? I think he's feeling very conflicted. I also think that a lot of his anger really wasn't directed at me - it was directed at himself, but he was projecting it onto me. Is that sorta kinda what you mean?


Well the best I could do on the fly this time was just not respond by fighting. I told him I was sorry he felt that way, but it did not change my decision. When the obscenities started, I took it for a minute, then when it continued I simply stated that I wasn't going to stand there and be spoken to in that way.

Honestly - I feel at this point that he owes me an apology for the obscenities. He can be mad at me all he wants, he can disagree with me on the issue, but calling me names was way out of line. Besides, I am "Queen B1tch of the Universe" - he didn't get my title right *g*. I doubt very much he'll offer any sort of apology, because in his mind I'm all wrong and he's 100% right. I'm not sure if I should say anything when I see him next (IF he shows up here at any point between now and his vacation - and his anger factor will determine that). Or if I should just sweep the whole thing under the rug if he shows up here, and not address any of it again. I won't revisit the vacation issue, but I'm not all warm and fuzzy about the verbal diahrreah. Suggestions?

JinGA

Orchid: Make your moves as a family. The WS has a hard time being pitted against all of you. Use this as a tool and get your children to form a strong bond so you all can fight this alien WS.


Orchid: A simple word from you or one of your children c/b a code that they are in danger from the WS.

Practice with your children how to reverse babble. You noted he is already trying to pit the children against you regarding the trip.



Orchid: It is a good sign because his frustration means the WS is NOT in control. Keep the WS off balanced. Do this by putting seeds of doubt in his mind.

Ex:

BS: (sniff)....what's that smell?

WS: What smell?

BS: Not sure it seems a bit toxic.... have you been dipping into some chemicals? It is coming from you.

WS: I don't smell anything...... you think I stink?

BS: (don't laugh)....you smell toxic. Is that OW putting something on you that your body is rejecting?

WS: Not sure.

BS: Hm..... (gotta go)

I used this one myself. It worked for me. LOL!!!


Orchid: Practice on the reverse babble. Try using the bathroom mirror. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Orchid: He does owe you an apology and don't let him forget it. The WS in him will want to sweep it under the rug. I found a good way to bring it up is to ask questions.

Ex:

BS: Ws, I have a question.

WS: What!

BS: Let me know when u r in a better mood and so I can ask.

WS: Ok, So what?

(note if his mood does NOT make you feel safe do NOT continue the discussion.....WS' can't hide their anger or frustration yet as a BS you need him calm. Give him time to get hide the WS and let your H come out).

Some time may go by, hours or even days.....if it is days check back in a couple of days with:

BS: R U feeling better?

WS: Why?

BS: I still have my question to ask you.

WS: WHAT!

BS: Let me know when u r feeling better. This question isn't for those that babble.

WS: Hmmph....(he will sulk but let him be).

So the time comes a few days later and you try again:

BS: R U feeling better?

WS: Why?

BS: I still have my question to ask you.

H: Yes, what is your question?

BS: (a bit apprehensive): R U really ok? I need your anger t/b in control.

H: Yes, it is. (if he foams at the mouth, stop the convo).

BS: My question is that (then you lay out your question, best to have it written down when you 1st thought of it)....

Let's say your question is: How would you feel if you saw someone at our store cuss out someone in our family?

H: I'd be angry. I'd want to beat them up and throw them out. (he may start foaming...or seething).

BS: Well someone did that right here in our store.

H: Really? When? Who, what did they say?

BS: Well, when was (give date and time), They said: (give example - no names)..... do you know who did this?

H: 1. if he says no, tell him

2. if he says yes,

BS: (ask him what is he going to do to that person?)

Can you see where this is going? These is what I had t/d in my sitch. I had to approach the WS about this at a time he didn't expect and in a way he didn't expect. Caught the WS with his guard down because I refused to deal with the WS.

See if this helps.

L.

Oooooh that's good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm home now. I muddled through the rest of the day. DS is still at XH's, I expect he'll be home in a couple of hours - if he sticks to the normal home time. If not, I'm not going to call - DS is fine I'm sure. Since XH has already asked and received a reply from DS regarding how DS feels about the GF, he likely went home and didn't offer up an explanation to DS, or he said I was being a bizznitch and left it at that. I'll chat with DS when he gets home, ask him what happened at that end and explain my version of events.

XH never contacted DD who was at home today. I just concluded a chat with DD. She and I are on the same page - I was a bit worried about her and how she'd feel about it, but we talked. She and XH are wired very similarly emotionally although DD is much better at expressing herself. Sometimes it just takes a while to get her to open up. She can be evasive at times - sometimes I have to push her just a bit, other times I just have to wait. When she starts changing the subject I have to tread lightly, but usually we end up having a good talk about whatever needs to be discussed.

She stated that she does think he's pondering all the pros and cons of his current state of affairs, and told me not to sell him short about that. I agreed, but I don't think she fully understands his perspective isn't exactly unbiased and logical. My DD is going to be a scientist. She approaches things in an almost Vulcan logic... that's where she doesn't realize that her father isn't quite so, umm, Vulcan...

Since DD is currently involved in her first romance, I asked her... "Ya know how it feels to be infatuated?" And she giggled and said yes. I said that sometimes in that state we get tunnel vision and logic goes out on a picnic. I told her that is where Daddy is at - he's not thinking about all things from a logical standpoint.

I also compared his sitch to a similar sitch she had with her friend. Her friend had a crush on a boy. DD thought the boy was all wrong for her friend (good girls, "bad" boy). She told her friend that she didn't "approve", but she'd support her in her decision to pursue him, albeit grudgingly. Eventually her friend decided not to pursue this young man. DD said that if her friend did go out with this boy, she'd be there to let her cry on her shoulder when he broke her heart. At the time she felt her friend wasn't looking at this boy through "clear" eyes. I applied that same analogy to what her father is doing right now -he's not seeing things clearly, nor is he thinking clearly.

I explained that I have good girlfriends who have offered me similar advice - helped me with decisions and such, and they love me enough to tell me when they think I might be contemplating a stupid move, and they can do it in a loving and safe way that lets me know their feelings without being judgmental etc. I explained that Daddy doesn't seem to have any good guy-friends that would do that for him, and I'm the last person he'd hear it from (especially after today!)... so he's going to have to work this out on his own.

DD was very insightful. She said she saw him as trying to bring two "worlds" together - he first did this by moving GF here (she had no career to leave, just family) - since that didn't work, he's trying to resolve how to bring those worlds back together, and it's not adding up. She figures he's struggling to still do that (and I concur) - but while both she and I can see it's not gonna fly, he hasn't drawn that conclusion yet.

I told her there's no fairy tale ending here. He's either going to lose everything - his kids, his career, his home here, etc., to go out there, OR he's going to realize that it never should have been a "choice" in the first place, and he's going to be hurt all over again.

Either result ends in pain. There is no happy ending to what he's doing now. I told her that for me it's hard to watch somebody I care about, doing this - but she also told me, sometimes we have to just let people fall on their faces, and be there to pick them up afterward. DD is wise for her years.

I told her I would be there to pick up XH when he falls - IF he'll let me. I told her we *all* need to be there to pick him up when he falls.

We had a good talk. I do believe that while she's a bit disappointed about not going on the "road trip" part, she's relieved to have had that burden lifted, and besides, she wouldn't want to be away from her beau for 2 weeks *g*!

I'll have a similar chat with DS when he gets home - I want to discuss some of the "other stuff" that XH talked to him about ("the talk") and about what has happened today.

DS is easier to talk to in some ways - he's not as worldly wise as DD but he and I relate a bit better because we seem to be more on the same page in our thinking patterns.

I'm really curious to hear what DS has to say about the events of today - surely XH had to 'splain why he was home 20 minutes after opening time. I trust DS to know if he's being fed a line of bull. He will likely disappointed about the "road trip" bit, but he has told me he wants GF out of the picture repeatedly - question is - if XH brought it up to him today, did he have the fortitude to tell him that? I doubt it - or DS probably would have returned home before now.

Sucks to be kids in the middle. I do so much to avoid placing them there, but every once in a while XH yanks them in and I have to do my best to yank them back out without too much damage. I *was* that kid in the middle with my own parents - he has never been in that position, so I don't think he realizes what he's doing at times. In any event, his attempts are usually foiled, and the kids know that I will do anything and everything to avoid that happening but sometimes their father just does it without thinking.

I never received a poison pen email from the GF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I half expected one, but the more I think about it, the more I'm probably playing right into her hands - why would she want XH to show up with OUR kids? After all, that might cut into his time with her and her litter? She's probably happy that I put the veto on that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Oh well it's the first and last favour I'll ever do for her!

I'm going to try to practice that bit about reverse babble and how he cursed me out... however that will only serve to piss him off even more - or is that the goal?

I'm really curious to see what transpires on Tuesday - he's either not going to show up until further notice, or walk in pretending like nothing ever happened. If he walked in offering an apology then (or tonight when he brings DS home), I might have a heart attack. Totally not his style.

Kinda gotta wonder if he's ever been that nasty with "Baby"?

JinGA

Let the games begin.

DS just called a few minutes ago to ask if he could stay one more night at his father's. I want him home - for one I want to talk to him, and for another, Mondays are my "flex" day - shop is closed, I usually go in in the morning to do a few things then the rest of the day is my own to spend with the kids.

I'm not sure whose idea it was for DS to stay another night but I told him that I'd like him home tonight, and tomorrow night if he and/or his sister wants to, they are welcome to return to their father's tomorrow night.

See how restrictive I am about time spent with them? I'd really rather them be with me than alone in his apartment while he's at work... makes me a ****** of a bad mother, doesn't it?

Considering this isn't even *his* weekend... we don't stick to a set schedule but the decree says every other weekend and every Wednesday. He's entitled to a pile of weeks in the summer, but never takes them - except for this proposed asinine vacation, which BTW he was supposed to submit his intentions IN WRITING by May 15 - which he didn't. So even if he was crazy enough to haul me into court over this (and he has no money to do that, let alone travel...) a judge would tell him he didn't comply.

I hate "fighting" on stupid technicalities like that - and I didn't even bring that much up but it was my ace in the hole if things really got (or do get) ugly.

I suspect I've heard the last of that fight - he's not going to go to war with me about it any further - the decision is done, final. He can keep acting like a spoiled brat, or he can grow up and get on with it. We'll see what the next week brings.

JinGA

Sorry to keep posting back-to-back... mind is working some overtime.

I'm still contemplating what to do about next Saturday. Part of me thinks it's not really a hill I need to die on, and another part of me is pissed that the responsibilities of the business *always* fall on me, and that's the last bastion of power that he has on me - because he knows my work ethic, and my sense of responsibility to the business.

I won't make a decision right away - but by mid-week I will need to make a choice... I'd like some feedback on it, please.

I have 3 choices:

1) Suck it up and go to work, and know that he is punishing both myself and OUR children, because he's got his bum in a knot.

2) Say nothing, close the store, and go anyway. Post a sign on the door explaining that my kids and I are having a family day, and sorry for the inconvenience. I'd post that mid-week and send an email notice to my customers who get our bulk emails.

3) TELL XH that I have decided to go anyway, and he can either choose to pony up to his share of the responsibility in the business, or not, but I am not going to be a victim of his moods.

Now if I go with #2, XH won't really be the wiser unless he decides to show up during the week like he should - in which case he will SEE the notice when I post it (say, on Wednesday). That will either give him the chance to relent on his stance and agree to open alone, or piss him off further.

If I go with #3, I open up a new can of worms, and potentially a fight. Now I can announce my intentions and refuse to discuss them - and after today I know I have the control to do that. I just don't know if "in your face" defiance is a good thing to do right now.

Traditionally, I've gone with #1, and been screwed out of much of a life for a long time. I did get a Saturday off last month (first time in probably a year), and I've had 2 or 3 evenings off since January (evening = going home 2 hours early).

On the other hand, he took a 6 month "leave" when GF lived here and he got his knickers in a twist. He had time off when he took her to and from the airport when she went away, came back and left for good. He comes and goes as he pleases, where I'm stuck there all the time that we're open, with the few exceptions noted above.

It's hard to always be cheerful. Just *once* it would be nice if he came in and said, "Go home - spend some time with the kids" - I think I'd keel over from the shock.

So what should I do? I'm giving myself a couple of days to consider all the options, but I'd appreciate some insight. I'm not sure a power struggle is the best way to go - but I'm all ears.

JinGA

Sounds like you've had a busy weekend. I wish I had some good advice for you. I don't - just a couple of observations. Still, maybe they can help you gain a different perspective on the situation...

1) I am STUNNED that he can get away with saying stuff like that. I just don't see how that kind of language directed at ANYONE is ever acceptable. Does his clinical depression excuse it? I wouldn't think so.

I don't get it Jin. As I examine your situation from my perspective and the stuff I'm going through, I don't get how you would want to reconcile with someone who talks to you like that. Don't know if I'm questioning your feelings, or if I'm just trying to clarify them. I am honestly confused here.

2) One thing I might have suggested differently was your reply to his "Why?". For me, a second firm "No." without any explanation might have felt like a powerplay. An attempt to control. In essence, "I don't owe you an explanation. A simple no is all you have a right to expect.".

I'm NOT saying that's what you did. I get the impression that you didn't want to explain because you didn't want to rat out your kids' feelings about his GF. But he wouldn't have known that. All he knew was that he was going into a potentially confrontational situation by asking you outright, and when you dug in and didn't elaborate... Well, his frustration and anger is understandable to a degree.

That doesn't make his reaction to it acceptable though. I just want to reiterate that.

Believe me, after that episode, I was wondering that myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Over the years we've had some pretty nasty arguments, and we've both said some things we haven't been proud of. However for the most part we would both think before we spoke. That outburst today was *not* typical. I'm not saying he's never said those things before - but it's never been OK, and it's been rare when he has said them. I'm no saint either - and while I've rattled a few off on him that I was proud I even thought of <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> it's not typical of either of us.

My style today wasn't typical either - normally once my buttons were pushed, I'd fly off the handle into an angry tirade- not necessarily containing obscenities, but sometimes all bets were off.

Honestly - today the "alien" was speaking, not the man who was my husband once upon a time.


It may have been a power play - the second "no" was a delay tactic to collect the thoughts I've been "practicing" for the last month in preparation for this day. He caught me off-guard, but I rose to the occasion and pretty much stuck to my original plan in how to address it.



Oh believe me, we're on the same page there. Hence my refusal to stand there and be spoken to in that way.

DS is home. We've had a talk. HE DID TELL XH today AGAIN that he does not like GF. Now DS feels bad and hopes his father doesn't hate him for hurting his feelings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told DS that since XH didn't deposit him home within moments of that statement, he's fine. I also told DS that his father could never hate him, and that I'm proud of him for being honest.

I told both my kids that I need them to be honest with me, because if they are telling him one thing and me another - that won't work. I don't believe that XH was being truthful when he made that assertion today - but I just need to know the kids and I are on the same page.

DS said that XH's apartment is still a wreck since GF left (nearly 2 months ago now). He said that his father was angry when he got home, told him he was angry at me, asked DS how he felt about the GF and went quiet after that. Then about 45 min later he had DS put some analgesic on his back (XH always has pains when he's depressed), took a nap (hmmm more signs that he's not feeling as cheery as he'd like us to believe)... then DS went swimming with his buddy and was called back to supper before he came home.

XH told DS that GF makes him happy. I'll refrain from making DJ's in this thread... 'nuff said.

JinGA

I'm sorry, I don't intend to be dense here Jin, but can you please help me to understand why you said "No" a second time without the explanation? You said he caught you off-guard today. Was that it? Did you freeze up a little?

See, I am of two minds here. Part of me wants to suggest that his temper tantrum might have been averted if he'd gotten your reasoning right away. Maybe not, since he was expecting a no, he might have been spoiling, or at least ready, for a fight.

OTOH, I'm thinking it might have been a good thing, in a way, for a couple of reasons. First of all, I think that all relationships have to be able to weather stress and adversity without that bad of a breakdown in communication. This might have been a sign that he's simply not ready... No, not deserving of a R with you right now. If this sort of behavior is acceptable in his mind, then you might be best served to seek better companionship. That you don't expect an apology from him after he cools off reinforces that thought from me.

Secondly, I am beginning to wonder if he ambushed you. To hit you with this, knowing what your answer might be, first thing in the morning suggests a lack of maturity to me. Like you, I am sure that he had already gamed out this conversation. He had to have anticipated your answer a little bit, no? Yet he acted all shocked and surprised. That doesn't add up. It's almost like he picked a fight with you on purpose - set himself up to feel like a victim.

If this were his normal behavior, I'd tell you to run for the hills and let him have his skanky GF. But I gather from what you've said, that this is NOT the man you once knew. Therefore, I suggest that he's got a ways to go before he gets back to that man again, you know? No two ways to cut it. His display today was blatantly verbally and emotionally abusive. There was nothing passive or subtle about it.

You handled yourself well after his reaction IMO. Remaining calm and not escalating was thoughtful and smart. I hope you are reassessing your goals though. If he goes away on this trip and comes back crushed and low, you might want to think about letting stay in the sewers for a while before offering him a hand back up. My $.02 anyway...

As for next weekend, I'd send him an email on Tues or Wed asking him his intentions. Keep cool, keep it professional. Something you'd send to a business partner and that's all. If he refuses to acknowledge within a couple of days, assume that he's not coming in and send him a follow up telling him that his lack of reply, was all the answer you needed. Then don't inform him of whatever you decide to do for the day.

It caught me off guard. The second NO was a momentary delay to get myself together and keep to my plan and avoid LB and just state things as they are. I wish I could have just let it go with "NO" but I didn't expect to.


Yep, he was itching for a fight. I didn't give it to him and I think that probably peeved him off even more than if I had given him a fight. Sometimes that's even more fun than a real fight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I expect him to try to sweep it under the rug. That's what he usually does when he's wrong and he doesn't want to own it. That's not to say I've never had apologies - he's just not consistent with them. If he were honest with himself, he'd apologize but he's just totally not in that mode right now.

And you are right - he doesn't deserve me right now. I guess I haven't abandoned hope in him yet - but we've said all along he has some work to do. People have come back from worse - but I'm keeping things real.

I am just glad that I passed the test myself. I learned a lot about myself today. Nothing new about him, he did about what I expected, although I didn't expect the expletives. I guess it's been a while...


Oh I have no doubt about this whatsoever. The day he dropped that on me when I asked about time off for myself this summer, he dropped that news of his intentions. If I hadn't asked for my own purposes, I'd have remained in the dark. He knew right then and there that I wasn't receptive to the idea, because I said so, and then I said perhaps we should discuss it later. That was almost a month ago.

Then today he brings it up *right after* he agrees to cover for me for a day.

Do I detect a pattern here?

My DS told him 2 weeks ago when XH brought it up to DS, that I would "probably" say no. He said the same thing last weekend when he brought it up with them yet again.

I didn't let him take the kids last year on a similar trip - although GF was with him on that trip (she was living with him, they went back to her home state to get her stuff and to see another one of her kids, who ended up coming back with them). This was no surprise to him. He knew darned well I'd say no, which is why he didn't consult me before he booked his vacation dates, didn't tell me about it til I asked (I still don't know the specific dates). Absolutely he set himself up to be the victim here.

And the best time to lay the guilt on thick, is right after I ask him a favour - to cover me for ONE day so I can take the kids someplace nice.

Well I told the kids tonight - he's angry at me and punishing all of us with this.


The man I married wasn't perfect - but this kind of crap wasn't typical. He's still possessed by aliens. Yep he tried to be abusive, but I refuse to be his victim. Sticks and stones. He only has power to hurt me with words, if I allow him. Nope - no power there. He can spew whatever crap he wants to - he can't hurt me with it. NO it's not acceptable, so I walked away from it - but more than that, I did not give him that power. That had to make him mad. I actually came away feeling a bit empowered *because* I didn't let it get to me.

I'm rattled by the confrontation because I hate confrontation but I knew it was going to come to that, and I was ready. I'm sure he left confused because I didn't behave the way I normally used to. I've grown up a bit, he is still stuck in 6th grade <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Well hey - the way he's talking it up you never know he may come back married!! (LOL I made a funny - he's doing stupid things but I hope he's not that crazy. He passed through NV last year and I almost expected him to come back married! And that was when it was all still fresh and new!)


That sounds reasonable. There's also a member of XH's family who has a financial stake in the store, part of our reason for wanting to sell is to make an obligation whole, that we've had trouble with. When XH departed last year for 6 months, I didn't whine to his family member about this, but this year when he started breathing down my neck, I filled him in on XH's absence. Of course XH says he set the matter straight with his family member... whatever - the bottom line is I've been there the whole 5 years of business, and XH hasn't been. If he wants to play that game again, I can tell his cousin to ask XH what he's doing for the biz lately.

I'd hate to drag somebody else into this, but I'm not going to take the crap alone, particularly when I've been the one in the trenches.

I think your idea is a good one. Tuesday or Wednesday I will email him - I'll decide how to go about that depending on whether he shows up at the store on Tuesday night or not. I'm tired of sucking it up and sacrificing my junk for the store because he's got his knickers in a twist.

If he doesn't want to take care of his business, he can explain it to his investor.

I want that day off Saturday even if I sit at home. That's kind of spiteful sounding, but darnit, I'm sick of rolling over every time he has a tantrum and uses the business as a weapon.

JinGA

Last post for the night I think...

DS said he hoped that his telling his father that he doesn't like GF doesn't prompt him further to move out there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's really hard to hear my child say that.

I told him that I don't think his father will move there. I told him that this road trip is something that he just has to do for himself - and I didn't think it would be right for them to be on it with him.

DS is also worried, as I am, about the risk of accident, breakdown...a 4000-mile round trip in 2 weeks is a lot for one driver. I worried for 2 weeks last year when he wouldn't answer his phone the whole time. Something tells me he's going do the same thing again this year - disappear.

All we can do is pray that God keeps him safe - in body and mind, and gets him home again in one piece.

Something also tells me that the *real* theatrics will begin after he returns. Because that's when he's going to have to decide how long he can sustain a long-distance relationship that "makes him happy" or if he's going to come to the realization that the horse is dead, and he can beat it all he wants but it's never going to get up. He won't have vacation time for another year and unless he either decides to move, or keeps footing the bill for airfare (ie for GF to visit since she doesn't work, "vacation" time is not a factor)... how long can that keep on going?

What a mess. Who needs to watch soap operas?

And Seabird - about your comment about leaving him in the sewer for a while when he lands there - you could be right. He needs to find that rock bottom yet again because the first few times it didn't seem to make a difference.

Sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

That comment from your son is heartbreaking. His fears about breaking down on the road trip suggest something else to me; that he doesn't feel safe as he could with his dad. That's not to say that he thinks his dad is dangerous. Just that he doesn't have faith and comfort in his dad to prevent a breakdown or getting stranded. Or be able to handle it in a confident way if a breakdown happens.

Well that fear may have come from me. We worried last year when XH wouldn't answer his phone for the 2 weeks he was on his trip.

XH's car is 6 years old and he does not maintain it well. It hasn't had a major failure in that time (knock on wood), but *our* fear is that it breaks down and he's stranded somewhere without the money to get it fixed.

2 1/2 years ago when he took the kids back home for a holiday, it was winter and bad weather, and they nearly wrecked - twice. He drove through really bad weather, without the appropriate snow tires, and both kids wound up crying, while in a donut spin on an off-ramp.

XH is also a rather aggressive driver. He takes chances and drives aggressively. I drive fast at times, but I'm a defensive driver. I've had many white-knuckle rides with XH and it was cause for fights between us over the years. I don't think he's *as* bad anymore - but combine all those factors and it's just not a good risk, IMO.

He'll be the lone driver (last year his GF was with him but she does not drive), on a long trip, and he told me recently that last year they both were slamming down those energy drinks to stay awake. Nice. Just where I want to put my kids - with a sleepy driver pumped up on energy drinks, who is in a hurry, driving my kids 4000 miles in 2 weeks, and in a hurry to get to one destination.

Call me paranoid, I don't mind - but I'd rather be known as paranoid and keep my kids out of that situation, than perhaps live to regret it.

I realize that they could just as easily come to harm another way - but sometimes it's just foolish to take chances. I'm not willing to put them at risk this time.

Like I said, if he was taking them home to his family (half the distance), I'd say OK - even though the last time he took them, they nearly wrecked - but that was wintertime, and thank God they all came home safe. The kids haven't forgotten that journey - DS mentioned it to me the other day.

DS also told me last night that if things end between XH and GF that he hopes "Daddy doesn't do anything stupid". I did NOT plant that one. But what do you say to something like that? IMO he's already done plenty "stupid" - although I'm sure DS meant it in a different way.

The more I think about all this, and the last couple of weeks, the more I think that XH may be in a depressive cycle. His depression had been very well managed this last couple of years, but just the fact that he flew off the handle yesterday was very reminiscent of when he was out of control at the end of our M. He's not displaying all of the same symptoms as he was when he wasn't taking meds for it - it's more subtle this time (except for yesterday). It was shocking how he went from pleasant and agreeable to calling me names within about 10 minutes. Like somebody flipped a switch.

All I can do at this end is ride it out - keep the kids as safe as I can, and wait for the other shoe to drop.

JinGA

You can vent here with all the 'djs' you want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .... if it helps.

This is NOT a thing a responsible parent should tell a child. Let the WS know this in no uncertain terms. Does he do e-mail? Put it in an e-mail. That way you will have a record of it and he can read it over and over until he gets it.

Stupid WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Well when I first started posting here about my situation, a veteran poster whom I respect, pointed out to me that I was making lots of disrespectful judgements in my vents, so I took notice of that and stopped.

I don't make these to my XH - I was making them here to vent my own frustration and draw a picture of the scenario - and of course I'm hardly unbiased, but the cold hard facts speak for themselves.

Yeah he does email - and a lot of our "intense" communications about this or that have been that way - I've got an extensive email archive of everything that has transpired over the last few years.

For the most part the last 11 months or so have been fine - last year he tried to go to war with me over the business - I am reasonably certain he was going to try to borrow money against the business, to get himself out of the huge hole that he and GF dug themselves into, but I wasn't going to let that happen - and he soon abandoned that effort. Beyond that, for the last year we've been civil - in fact for 6 months of the last year, almost all our communication was by email. Since he returned to the business in January, and particularly since the GF dropped the bomb in early April, things were steadily improving between us (with the occasional minor setback) - but by and large he was doing a great job of filling many of my EN, without even being aware of it. Now I feel like he made a massive love-bank overdraft.

I want to send him an email letting him know that his conduct yesterday was totally inappropriate, ask him what his intentions are going foward with the business (ie is he quitting again, or is he over himself yet?), what dates he will be gone, and does he have any sort of plan to take care of his responsibilities in the business while he's gone? (doubtful). I'd also like to know if I should expect him to fail to make his mortgage obligation next month, just like he did last year (a 4000 mile road trip is expensive ya know!) and if he's going to answer his phone if his children should wish to call him.

But doing so would just throw him back on the defensive, and no matter how carefully and tactfully I word it, it's just going to perpetuate the conflict. Once he's in defensive mode, there's nothing I can say or do to diffuse it, and anything I say at this point will be seen as an act of war, and he'll just react in the same fashion as he did yesterday, although he's not quite so nasty when he writes.

I am still shaking my head about the bitter comment.

Sure I'm bitter - that's why he phoned ME when she dropped her bomb. That's why he cried on the phone and I offered him sympathy and support. That's why he felt safe telling me things during the 2 weeks when she was preparing to leave, and he told me that "what goes around, comes around" as an admission of some of his own LB between us. That's why I helped him out with a small loan after she left, and he was penniless. That's why I sent him an email telling him he was in my thoughts and prayers the day she left, and told him if he needed anything, that I was here for him. That's why I let him claim our kids on his taxes, because it gave him more of a tax break, and all I asked in return was the $70 difference it made on *my* return not to claim them. That's why I drove his stuff to the CPA for him, and picked it up for him. That's why I've been inviting him to join us for dinner occasionally (but he declines), so he doesn't have to be so alone - and when he declines, I've even picked up take-out for him.

Of course I'm bitter - doesn't every bitter ex do all these things?

I know that he's still in the fog, and under normal circumstances, he'd have appreciated all that stuff - and I do think he appreciated most of it at the time - but to get slapped in the face like I was yesterday, simply because he's acting like a spoiled brat who didn't get his way, sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The man I saw yesterday was NOT the man who was inadvertently attracting me back to him. That was somebody else, but it's somebody I've known before, in the death throes of our M.

He's angry, he's conflicted, he's more than likely depressed. I can't fix that. And I am not going to be a door mat while he sorts himself out.

I wish there was a way I could effect a Plan B. I might just be able to do that if he abandons the business again - but then I have bigger problems to conquer besides personal ones, if it comes to that again. I don't have the backup I had last year when he pulled this. Somehow I always land on my feet, but the business is cash poor, and I'm literally waiting on a proposal from a prospective buyer. The right offer would get us both out from under it, would likely make me a paid employee here, and remove my dependence on him financially - and our property settlement that I've been living on for the last 2 years is coming to an end - so I'm up against a deadline of my own. I get child support that is deducted straight from his pay, but it's not enough to keep my house without other income... so I'm going to be screwed myself soon if things don't change here. If/when we find a buyer, that will relieve my situation and I *will* be able to go dark, because the party looking to buy does not want to keep XH on, and depending on the day of the week, XH doesn't want to be involved in the business anymore (although at other times he seems to still love this place very much).

I'm trusting in God to guide me through all this and get me to where I need to be - He hasn't failed me yet - but it's hard not to worry too much, especially when XH is in his current mode.

At the rate he's burning bridges, he'd best be careful - or he may be stranded on an island at some point.

JinGA