that's what I noticed ... the dynamics of the arguements on both discussions are really similar .... and, some of the same MBers are involved AND taking the same/similar positions/arguements they did on T_D's thread

eerie !!!

T_D was getting railroaded and the board was getting gaslighted ...

Wow alot has happened in a one day.

I don't have long right now so I will only cover some major points.

I did have as ZP called it a near EA back in 01. I will try and find the post where she says that she has but it behind her. I do still have occasional contact with the OW. I see her a work every other month or so.

I posted to seek advice in how and if I should agree to her coming home. I do not see how that is abusive. The boundaries I listed are not set in stone. And even though I asked for some of her boundaries I have not seen a list yet.

MOS, If I am really that abusive and dangerous I would agree that she should live some where else. I am not making her come home this was her idea. I am asking for help to protect myself. What is her real motive for returning? Is it to provoke me into being abusive so she can have proof to have me arrested? Is it because she would have to live in SC for a year before she could file? Or is that FL has a higher child support payment then SC?

I am not sure if I am ready to live with her yet or not. There are trust issues for both of us. And I am leaning towards now is too soon. I do not know what other options she has. I have been supportive of her decision to leave and have paid child support payments since she left. She still has access to our joint account.

Wanted to add that I am tired and a dad but I am not tired_dad.

Broken H

How is your relationship with the kids?

Well, as a former associate with an abuse center, I am going to weigh in on this one. I have tailored the following to fit the existing situation on this thread.

1. There is real abuse in this world, enough to make you sick at your stomach, much of it drug or alcohol related or just a mean or crazy person. There are more men being abused than you would believe, it is a unisex problem.

2. There are also allegations of abuse that are bogus or somewhat bogus. There are also allegations of abuse where it turns out that the alligator was the one abusing. The number of abuse allegations because of child custody or revenge or control reasons is nearly out of control in some places. CPS has to no bill a very large number each year and they won't release the percentages.

3. For undetermined reasons that can only be speculated upon, a Good Samaritan will pick up on an abuse allegation and run with it to "protect" the abused, who may or may not in fact be abused. Best thing there is to persuade the GS that they need to leave it up to the pros. That doesn't always work because the GS makes a serious emotional investment in the well being of the alleged abuse victim.

It is not all black and white out there in the real world.

I have seen babies who can no longer suckle because they were shaken; and the moms were protecting their husbands or boy friend father. I have seen women with black eyes and broken arms along with dull eyes. I have also seen men with broken bones (no they didn't deserve it), knife cuts, face scratches deep enough to leave scars, and an assortment of other injuries.

To protect their own egos and lower the risk of doing time, abusers (and abused) leave out details which professionals are sometimes trained to find out about. Here is a case in point.

Wife gets enraged because husband isn't making enough money and she is frustrated with unrelenting child care, laundry, house cleaning, husband breaking wind while drinking beer and looking at porn on the web while she breaks her back to keep things in order. So she pitches a fit and he beats her up. Sounds clear cut, right? Sounds like he should be arrested, right?

Well, after an investigation, it wasn't all that clear cut and the details why are unimportant for the purposes of this thread. The point is that the truth kinda shifts around depending on who is telling what.

The object lesson here is that only the two of them really knows what went on and they aren't talking, at least in this thread. That neither is addressing this issue head on makes my detector go off, but doesn't give me any direction to point.

The reason there are abuse centers is because abuse is real. The reason abuse allegations are investigated is to discover the truth as best the investigator can determine. And that takes professionals and on this thread, there are none who have declared themselves, or at least none who are in a position to have conducted a detached, professional level investigation in the real world.

Meantime, advice given based on what the poster says is the custom here. And based on what I have seen, I suggest that if ZP is an abused, she has a large number of resources she can reach out for very easily.

Larry

PS, I have said this before. For those who want a complete education on abuse, it is available in many places on the web for those who want to take the time and trouble.

BH,

The general consensus seems to be for the two of you to remain separated. I think that's a good idea for the reasons mentioned - it puts you both at risk. The dynamic between the two of you is not going to be good enough for some time (until you work things out) for you to peacefully co-exist.

I'm now going to suggest something that I'm going to warn you will not speak to your best interest. And, I understand if you reject it -- heck, I can outline the reasons you shouldn't do it.

However, it is an option and while you're bandying around options for dealing with this situation, it's something you might want to consider even though it might leave you in a weaker position (legally) later should there be a divorce.

If you know ZP has no where else to go and there hasn't been any mention of an arrangement where she would agree to live separate from the children, it occurs to me that it might be easier for you to find lodging for one than it is for her to find lodging for herself and your children (I'm sorry, I don't remember how many you have -- 3?) So, I throw this out there for you to consider. You could let them have the residence and see what your church community might be able to find for you. It seems much more economical, safer, and better for your children.

To be fair, it might cause you issues should there be a divorce. It would certainly be an inconvienence for you.

On the other hand, it would demonstrate that you put your children's welfare and safety at some higher point than your own comfort (which might look good in court). It would also be consistent with your assertion that living together right now would not be wise.

It's a tough decision to make no matter what you do -- I thought I'd add one more option into the mix.

Mys

*Note: to those of you who are wondering why I didn't suggest she leave the children with him and go off on her own - it's my own implied assumption that there seems to be some 'agreement' between the two of them that the children go with her (she's their primary care giver). I'm not trying to be sexist or ignore father's rights - I'm just acknowledging the trend in the thread. I acknowledge that I might be wrong about my assumption about this implied agreement. (So no need to beat me up over that, ok?)

It is an option. And it is not an easy one. I have thought of friends that I could stay with but like my sister it is only a short term option. I have also thought about what the courts may look at if either of us choses to file for a divorce.

I don't think ZP would agree to me having the kids and her staying somewhere else. But as an option her female cousin does work for the university ZP is going to attend and may be able to have her stay there. The school also has dorms. So she could stay there and I could have the kids during her school.

Depending on an agreement between me and ZP on boundaries and how they are inforced will play a huge part in my decision to live with her.

Pepperband,

I have a great relationship with the kids. Since ZP left I have talked with them almost every night. We have a Bible studay and prayer time.

Before they left I was with them from 2pm when I got home from work until they went to bed. I took them to church every Wen. and most Sun. As is always the case I could have spent more quality time with them.

Make the agreement to spend more time with the kids but she is on her own for living arrangements.

You need to meet the needs of the kids NOT the WS.

She is still in the WS mindset. Very dangerous for you to welcome that kind of mindset into your home.

That is why it is important you let the WS 'explain' themselves. If they are still a WS, you will know.

L.

I still have doubts about the NC. I have not been told by ZP that it has ended. Only verification I have had is the posts on here and my sister's word.

Spending time with the kids is very important for me. As for ZP I think she needs to find her own housing for the time or but forth a full effort on our marriage.

Have you received a reply from OM's wife regarding the exposure letter you sent her? Do you know that she even received it?

focus on building a strong healthy father/child relationship with your children

if possible
take them out as individuals from time to time instead of as a group (just for an hour or so) ... this makes each kid feel so SPECIAL to have a DADDY DATE

the church/bible study time is excellent

ADD some fun/silly/recreational time .... know why? <~~~ when the child feels free to open up to you is when they are RELAXED and happy and know they will not be ignored because you are NOT attending to their siblings needs as well

The letter to otherguys wife is still unsigned for. A notice was left at their house on the 11th.

I have done date nights with the each kid in the past. They did enjoy it.

I have not seen them for over a month. So individual time is diffidently needed once I see them again.

“1. There is real abuse in this world, enough to make you sick at your stomach, much of it drug or alcohol related or just a mean or crazy person. There are more men being abused than you would believe, it is a unisex problem.”

There has never been drug or alcohol (occasional drink 1 every couple of months) usage by either of us.


“The object lesson here is that only the two of them really knows what went on and they aren't talking, at least in this thread. That neither is addressing this issue head on makes my detector go off, but doesn't give me any direction to point.”

There is no talking between me and ZP at all about this. I am in full favor of talking about it with a professional. I feel that it needs to be 1 person who talks to both of us as individuals and together if needed. I will not say that my side is the whole truth. It is my view and ZP has hers. It is up to a pro to determine what actually happened and how to insure it does not continue.

As to the other points you mentioned I am not going to comment on them in the open for now. I have seen what I write get twisted around too much by some posters.

Here is the post by ZP about my EA and other things.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showthreaded.php?Number=2791317

BH,

You may be typing it out now...so my request my seem redundant...would you please post what happened in 2001 from your perspective, what you learned (about your whys) and how you are protecting your marriage now?

You can start a new thread in GQII if you want...or continue here. I dunno where...just want you to own your stuff, as I always do...and I believe you want to do so, as well.

LA

Are YOU qualified to deal with this situation? If not, why haven't YOU recused yourself?

I was working a lot of overtime for a private show as well as a new show install. Most weeks it was about 30 hrs of OT. There was 1 where it was cover 40. Total length was 2 1/2 months. This was just months after our son was born. We now had three kids and I was gone all the time. Our sex life took a huge dive. ZP was also upset with the huge amount of time I was gone.

During the start of these projects a new intern started working with me. She was young and thought that I was this great person because of my abilities at work and for having a family as well. This is rare in entertainment. We worked together most nights. We talked and joked a lot. Some jokes were sexual. All things that are common in the entertainment industry.

After another day at home I made a bad choice and told ZP that I was attracted to this woman. I used it to get ZP to show me some attention. And it worked for a time. She came to work to visit me during breaks and our sex life increased. I was never attracted to the OW and I did not want a relationship outside the marriage. I wanted the attention from my wife.

After this is when she first started posting at MB. I never went NC with OW. Even now 6 years latter I still pass her every now and then. We now work in different departments. Contact is every other month or so. ZP never asked for NC or for me to transfer or find work elsewhere.

I have only one observation.

You live life and cope, growing as you gain more maturity, each in their own way. One advances and the other stalls for a time, then sometimes the roles are reversed. Life is a process, a journey. Nothing stays the same except the will to succeed and the desire for family, home, safety and growing together.

Lives are often quite desperation. But two people who care can mitigate that unhappy state of being by trusting each other and apply the rules of joint agreement, radical honesty and all the rest. We all make mistakes. We all have the ability to follow paths to blind canyons. If we expect to always get fireworks, we will usually get bombs instead.

Quite love with a small smile is usually the one that lasts. All too often we get married for the wrong reasons at a time in life that also is wrong. But we can make it right by will and desire and a willingness to learn and grow as we move along the path. Nobody promised it would be easy. But then nothing life worth having is ever easy.

Larry