One of the things I have learned over the years, is that we can look at things surrounding an affair and determine just what needs were NOT being met by a spouse, that the OP is meeting.

And I have also noticed there are pretty much two kinds of attitudes that go into the marriage at this point..one that will lead the marriage to be saved..or lead the marriage to destruction.

So looking at some of the various information let's see what factors have played into this..and if either are willing to try to continue to really put forth the effort to save this marriage..or if the hearts of one or both these two are too hardened against each other to really try.

1. She apparently complained about low finances. (Financial support) And he worked over time to help in that area..until his EA started..then things changed..she sought him out more, communication between them increased..things got some what better.

2. Complaints about the household up keep (domestic support)

3. Close communication w/ others of the opposite sex from both parties that crosed martial boundaries. (communication a high need)

4. Lack of admiration and appreciation for what the other person does...(sounds like both have a need to be appreciated for what they bring to the marriage as individuals)

So you tried the OT at work to bring in more money to the home which led to someone else admiring you more than your wife did...and you worked together during that time; her coming to see you at work, and you eventually not working over time at all.

Sounds like communication began to get better during that time frame..and something happened...to cause it to stop.

I know from what has been said..she went back in school (very good choice), and that your schedule worked around her doing so, so that you stayed with the kids so you didn't have to pay daycare costs. But within that choice, came other sacrifices of your working more weekends to make up the hours taken off during the week? So we are back to lack of time together..for communication needs to be met at the levels needed.

Sounds like with all the other 'outside' the house activities between work, school, tending to the kids, the over all 'house' itself was being neglected and both parties became overwhelmed by the clutter build up within the house, and needed household repairs.

I understand part of this issue is because of ZP's desire to homeschool her children (again, and awesome choice) while also desiring herself to go back to school (again, an awesome choice) and depending on her husband to help more around the house. (something he should do, as part of the overall family, and not just because she's going back to school).

but, how often were the kids required to clean up after themselves? Or were the parents taking on that role as well, on top of everything else? And did the two of you work together and back each other when the kids were told to clean up their stuff and didn't? Or did you turn on each other (critizing and verbally abusing each other) because it wasn't getting done by anyone?

I realize that 'right now' you may not feel like your 'in love' with each other..but most all marriage go through this at some point. But it really sounds like instead of attacking the problem at hand...you began attacking each other in some way.

So if, homeschooling and going to school and his work schedule isn't working..what other options are there?

Could your kids go to public school?

So that

1. you still don't have the daycare expenses? And he doesn't have to take off time from work during the week, and have to work the weekend to make up for the hours missed during the week?

2. You can still go to school, taking classes when your kids are in school and your husband is at work?

3. Your husband work his 40 hour week during the week and not work weekends (unless absolutely necessary--like if a child is sick and someone needs to stay home with them and you need to be in class).

4. Your kids take on more of the responsibilities of cleaning up after themselves..where the two of you work together and in support of each other to ensure it's done..

5. After school, you and the kids could sit down together and do homework..and maybe start dinner?

6. When dad gets home from work..he could either finish up dinner while you study, or work with the kids to get things cleaned up..spending time with them..(could even make it a contest of who gets done the fastest).

Spend a little time together as a family, get the kids to bed, so that mom and dad have some alone time...

And is there ANYONE around the two of you who could babysit on occassion so that you could have the occassional date night? Where you could actually have some fun together?

Couples at church that you could switch off sitting for on occassions? teens from church? A young college student looking to make a few extra dollars? If these things are planned out in advance...you could even work babysitting and date nights into your budget so that it doesn't effect everything else.

To me, and I may be way off here, but it's just one of the things what I am seeing...it sounds as if you BOTH want acknowledgement and appreciation for what you contribute to the household, and everything has become so overwhelming that it's not getting done the way you both wish it would/could be done because of school, work, homeschooling, household chores and everything else. So can each of you both step outside the box, and appreciate how overwhelming things are to each other...and not just yourself?

can you both at least acknowledge what the other IS contributing? Even though it may not be exactly what you want, or exactly the way you want it..and realize that it really can change for the better? IF you BOTH want it to?

yes, there are other issues, of past abuses towards BOTH people (some by each other, some at the hands of other people, not even in the marriage) that also need to be addressed in individual counseling, and from reading the various threads..THIS IS HAPPENING..For both of them.

Part of the healing process that should come through counseling is acknowledging who carries the blame for
which abuse trigger, and placing that on the person who should carry it..not someone else, unless of course they have also abused you in the same way...then that also needs to be addressed with them.

ZP, if your father/grandfather/mother/step-mother whoever abused you..then they carry part of that..BH doesn't carry it all. I don't know if he has apologized or asked for your forgiveness without excuse for things he has done to you or not..if he hasn't...then BH, YOU NEED TO apologize and ask for her forgiveness without excuse. (and it can not be done on this forum, because she will not be able to know if you are sincere or not)

ZP, it is then up to you to forgive or not..Forgiveness is NOT for him...but for yourself, so that you can have that internal peace..(I'll refer you to Matthew Chapter 6 verses 14 & 15).


BH, even with your own past abuses, you need to lay the blame where it belongs also..and it doesn't all belong on your wife..and those that do...need to be addressed with her, so that she can also apologize without excuse for her actions as well, and seek your forgiveness...and as with her..it's up to you to extend that forgiveness or not as well. Again, the forgiveness is not for her..but for you (I'll also refer you to Matthew 6: 14 & 15).

Now even within all of these things...I also realize either one of you may not want to reconcile the marriage..out of fear things will never really change or out of a totally hardened heart against the other--and with that, will come it's own emotional issues you will both have to grow through and work out inside yourselves..as well as with your children.

They say kids are resilient and will get used to parents being divorced..in some cases, I would say yes, but in others I would disagree. The symptoms may subside for a time while they are children, but the effects and triggers of a divorce, will come back when they are older.

Again, I realize, your not feeling 'those in love' feelings, but those 'in love' feelings can come back (just as they did 2 years ago based on the above mentioned post)..but 'in love' feelings are not what marriage is based on..it's the commitment made to each other in your wedding vows..the 'in sickness and in health, in good times and bad" and trust me, I know either one of you can back out of those vows..and leave the marriage. I know, because my ex-husband filed for divorce..it was easier to cut and run than stay and fight and deal with the issues for the sake of the marriage..and I had to learn to deal with the overwhelming emotions and hurt that came with his choice to do that..and learn to accept it as such...His choice to take the easy way out instead of dealing with the fact things really could get better if we both made changes and basically grew-up emotionally together and learn to deal with problems like an adult-with honest and open communication...learning to attack the problem instead of each other..even after the divorce I continued to work on my issues..and even now, some 7 years post divorce I find myself saddened by his choices.

One of those times was Friday night as our oldest graduated High School...we were both there..but not sitting together, as we could have been had we BOTH been willing to work on the marriage...and I know in a few years when my second daughter graduates...and in a few nights when my son graduates from elementary school and again in a few years when he graduates high school, and again when they each get married and have children..those feelings WILL surface again..and I will again have to struggle through all the emotions that surface..

It won't work if only one person is willing and the other is not..a marriage is made up of two people...not one..and if it is going to work and be the best marriage possible...then BOTH people have to want to make it work..

So, you seem to be at this cross road in your marriage, and you both need to decide IF it's worth it to really address those issues, even if it takes a year or two to really work through them, and stay and fight for the marriage...or not..
None of us here can make that choice for you..because we won't be the ones who live out the consequences either way..
you and your children will be..so take some time and really think about what you want..not just for today...but for your future.

I realize, some of this may sound confusing...and I'll clear up any miscommunication if needed..

Hmmm, wonder IF she ever got the letter then, or IF the notice actually went into the garbage.

I would list ZP's needs as: (if I got any wrong ZP please correct)
Financial support, conversation, affection/admiration, honesty and openness, and Family commitment.
Mine are:
Sexual fulfillment, domestic support, admiration, physical attractiveness, and recreational companionship.

"but, how often were the kids required to clean up after themselves? Or were the parents taking on that role as well, on top of everything else? And did the two of you work together and back each other when the kids were told to clean up their stuff and didn't? Or did you turn on each other (critizing and verbally abusing each other) because it wasn't getting done by anyone?"

The kids were asked by both of us to pick up after themselves but neither of us showed them how to clean. They got overwhelmed and stopped cleaning. It helped when we would set small goals like picking up just the clothes and putting them in the basket. This happened some times but more often it was telling or yelling at them to get it all done. I can say that yes I would get angry when I came home from work and the house looked worse than it did when I left. The majority of our marriage I would yell at ZP for not keeping it up and I would do the same to the kids. Over the last couple of years I would just clean everything I could by myself. This did not help because I was still mad about the way the house looked.

"Could your kids go to public school?"

Both of us agree that the best place for the kids is either public or private school. Our church has a K-12 school and offers scholarships to low income families as well as church members.

"1. you still don't have the day care expenses? And he doesn't have to take off time from work during the week, and have to work the weekend to make up for the hours missed during the week?"

My work schedule is Tues-Sat. 5am to 1:30pm. The days off are set and can't be changed at this time. I could change my hours some but the earlier the better for my employer.

"2. You can still go to school, taking classes when your kids are in school and your husband is at work?"

Most of the classes she has taken have been during the day.

"3. Your husband work his 40 hour week during the week and not work weekends (unless absolutely necessary--like if a child is sick and someone needs to stay home with them and you need to be in class)."

Again the one weekend day is set but I do have off Sunday's.

"4. Your kids take on more of the responsibilities of cleaning up after themselves..where the two of you work together and in support of each other to ensure it's done."

This is very important for me. And I am willing to try her ideas of how to split the cleaning and how it is to be done.

"5. After school, you and the kids could sit down together and do homework..and maybe start dinner?"

I would be home first in the afternoons so this would fall more to me. I can help in this way. I enjoy cooking and would not have a problem with at least starting it.

"6. When dad gets home from work..he could either finish up dinner while you study, or work with the kids to get things cleaned up..spending time with them..(could even make it a contest of who gets done the fastest)."

This would be her finishing up dinner or I could and she could still use the time before dinner to study. After dinner she could then help in the cleaning up.

"And is there ANYONE around the two of you who could babysit on occassion so that you could have the occassional date night? Where you could actually have some fun together?"

I have joined a young couples Sunday school class that has several couples that take turns sitting for other couples. They also have monthly mens and womens activities.

"To me, and I may be way off here, but it's just one of the things what I am seeing...it sounds as if you BOTH want acknowledgement and appreciation for what you contribute to the household, and everything has become so overwhelming that it's not getting done the way you both wish it would/could be done because of school, work, home schooling, household chores and everything else. So can each of you both step outside the box, and appreciate how overwhelming things are to each other...and not just yourself?
can you both at least acknowledge what the other IS contributing? Even though it may not be exactly what you want, or exactly the way you want it..and realize that it really can change for the better? IF you BOTH want it to?"

I remember what my trade school was like and can appreciate how much work is required for her degree. While I have not shown appreciation of her contributions in the past. She has been there with the kids daily and looked after them. She has managed to go back to school and get a degree with Honors from the community college and was accepted into the program at the state university.

"BH, even with your own past abuses, you need to lay the blame where it belongs also..and it doesn't all belong on your wife..and those that do...need to be addressed with her, so that she can also apologize without excuse for her actions as well, and seek your forgiveness...and as with her..it's up to you to extend that forgiveness or not as well. Again, the forgiveness is not for her..but for you (I'll also refer you to Matthew 6: 14 & 15)."

There are issues that I have wrongly blamed ZP for. I am willing to ask her forgiveness on these matters.

"They say kids are resilient and will get used to parents being divorced..in some cases, I would say yes, but in others I would disagree. The symptoms may subside for a time while they are children, but the effects and triggers of a divorce, will come back when they are older."

Both of us come from broken homes. My parents divorced when I was 5. And yes there are issues from that time that I still need to deal with. I have some very good conversations with my dad in the last couple of months. Both if us had to apologize for things. We now have more respect for each other. Even more growth has happened between me and my step mom.

"So, you seem to be at this cross road in your marriage, and you both need to decide IF it's worth it to really address those issues, even if it takes a year or two to really work through them, and stay and fight for the marriage...or not..
None of us here can make that choice for you..because we won't be the ones who live out the consequences either way..
you and your children will be..so take some time and really think about what you want..not just for today...but for your future."

I am ready to make any changes necessary to ensure that our marriage can be saved. While I am unsure if I am "in love" I can say that I still Love ZP and want to work out or differences and make each other feel safe.

"Hmmm, wonder IF she ever got the letter then, or IF the notice actually went into the garbage."

I have no idea. Maybe otherguy can answer that if he is still around.

They will get another notice in a couple of days before it gets returned to me. I will update here when it is signed for or returned to me.