As the subject line says, I have a question for those of you who actually pushed for their divorce. I can only assume that everyone who does so, has a legitimate and valid reason(s). As I am coming to learn here, those reasons typically revolve around unmet needs of some sort. Is it safe to say that things like infidelity, addiction, and abuse are components or elements of those unmet needs?

The reason for my question, is that I am trying to get an understanding of where my W is and where she might be in the future given certain things. She is the one pushing for a separation and divorce in our case (my story is in my sig).

What I'd like to know from those of you who have passed through the gate already... What would have turned you around. If your spouse had managed to become the kind of person (spouse/parent) that they should have been all along (and not just what you wanted them to be), could the outcome have been different? And I'm talking about a long term consistent change in behavior that could be seen over time. Minimum of 6 months say. Consistent attempts to meet ENs, consistent success at avoiding LBs... Could things have been different?

Or did things just go so far past the point of no return that you just couldn't see yourself being with that person ever again, regardless of what they did or how they changed?

Seabird,

I went through a divorce 4 years ago, I was never given a second chance, I gave her everything I could, heck we were
in the middle of having our home re-modeled. Had a swiming pool installed, bought her boobs, new car, vacation what ever it was she wanted I tried to give her,

you never know, I guess what rubs me the wrong way is seeing all these people cheat on each other, hit each other and then get a second chance, I never got one but was willing to give one.

bottom line is YOU NEVER KNOW

you cant un-ring the bell!

You want the whole list or just the top ten?

Total emotional and physical abandonment the final 3 plus years of the marriage.

A disrepect for my position as husband, father, man.

Instrusion of inlaws beyond any scope you can imagine

Isolation from my family and friends.

Controlled me

the point is the marriage was unsalvable and I was garbage as a human being because of her and the relationship.

I can honestly say that at the 6-months post-divorce time frame I can barely speak to the ex via email. I could never see going back to the ex under any circumstance as the environment with the ex is toxic to me. I went through phases of weakness where I wanted her back, but time and space has given me some clarity over how things were and how they are now. I'm much happier now than I've been in years.

Gosh, at first, it would have been B stopping the Lovebusters. I wasn’t looking for happiness, just not to be miserable any more.

I think the time when it is past the point of no return is when one spouse realizes the other can’t or won’t change. In my case, B probably couldn’t make the necessary changes. It was simply too scary for him. Besides, he was happy as he was. Why should he change for me?

Then, too, when I realized we had different core values. Deep down, we had completely different world views, values, and habits.

For those of us who had been on MB trying to save our marriages, divorce was the last option. Most of us filed only when there was no hope. Your wife, though, is not an active poster here, nor has she been actively trying to save her marriage that we know of. It may be difficult to recover a marriage when it gets to the point that one person wants to separate, but its not impossible.

I understand that for many of you the toxicity of the actual M was too much to reconcile.

But my question was, what IF your spouse had made the necessary changes? What IF they maintained those changes over time?

Had any of you ever found yourself saying, "If only my W or H would have done X, Y, and Z instead of doing A, B, and C, things might have been different."

The reason I ask is because of a conversation I had with my older sister. She actively sought D from her XH and reached the point of no return once she was about to leave for the Azores (she was in the Navy). The whole time she wanted to know that she and her D were important to her XH. It wasn't until just before she left that he said, "You know, I would have gone with you."

She said that totally floored her. Her response was, "NOW you tell me that???". It only served to make her more angry, but I guess the point was that if he had tried harder while she was still here, it might have been salvageable. I'm asking people to IMAGINE that their spouses had changed for the better. Demonstrably so, and that it was consistent over time. I would guess that it is hard to do. I ask as a favor.

No one did the usual MB thing - it's all about YOU, not the other person. How have you CHANGED? How have you bettered yourself? Typically it takes two to tango, and yes one person can be more "at fault" then the other, but our spouses are a reflection of us in many ways it seems. Even their "flaws" - as we chose these people to begin with. We didn't stand up and make boundaries perhaps early on in marriages. We made mistakes too. What if you had done A, B and C, would things have been different? I know that if I had done X, Y and Z certainly some things would have been different in my own marriage. At the very least I could have been a more balanced person in my marriage, turning to God rather then making my problems so large. Rather then going with my feelings I could have tried to be positive as often as possible, I could have taken care of myself better, had better self esteem so that I didn't feel so walked on. I could have stopped playing the victim of his A, B, C behavior and had lots of support without him. I could have gone to church without him. I could have NOT sat around drinking with him. I could have NOT gotten angry and lost my temper over and over when he did his A, B, C stuff.

Perhaps the question needs to be if you had done X, Y and Z - and your spouse did A, B and C, would the marriage have worked out? Sometimes separated people work on their individual issues, balance their lives and see what they are missing. Married people remarry each other. There's a good new book on forgiveness that isn't traditional - it makes one think about some very serious questions, and how one contributed to problems. Sometimes the other person doesn't even realize that they have to do A, B and C for us to be willing to reconcile - maybe your sister didn't flat out say - this is what I need you to do so I can forgive you? I think a lot of problems boil down to a lack of communication between two people - both who are flawed human beings, both with A, B, C and X, Y and Z problems - yet both with good traits too. Most issues in a marriage will never be resolved so the shrinks say - so it's a process of give and take, and lots of forgiveness that binds two people together - so I'm told.

I'm in the process, he doesn't know yet, but the reasons are:
don't love him
not happy
abuse of myself and children, pets...very controlling, isolation from my family

now, this past weekend, I found old letters of his former girlfriends who were 14-17 y.o.s, while he was 27-28 y.o.s...the mothers of his other 2 kids were both 16 y.o.s while he was 20 and 28...so I know I'm making the right decision...can't believe I married a pedaphile!

i think, for me, too much damage had been done. i just don't think i can get over being betrayed by infidelity.

BEFORE there was any actual pa's, he had some female friendships that i was not comfortable with. i would not say there were ea's or anything, but he enjoyed calling them and flirting with them, etc... the problem is he did that kind of stuff behind my back, so he wasn't honest.
and there were other resentments that built up that are just too long to mention.

the first time we separated it was not due to infidelity at all, it was other issues. i agreed to take him back but only if certain changes were made and he never made them, never even attempted to. so, more resentments built up.

by the time there was infidelity it was too far gone.
had he actually tried way back in like 1999-2000 around in there to make the changes that needed to be made, and they were signifcant, like you said, then maybe, just maybe, there might have been a chance. BUT, he didn't, then he decided to add infidelity into the equation. once you cheat on me, i have discovered, there is NO turning back. i think you could beg my forgiveness and kiss my butt and i don't know that i could ever trust you again.

so, if he had made significant changes after the affairs started, i still think it would have been too late because i just would not be able to trust him, i'd always wonder who was on the phone, where he was, who he was with, and that is just not any way to live.

i refuse to be with someone that i have to wonder that stuff with. no way.

hope that helps.

mlhb

Again, I can appreciate the reasons WHY many of you have decided to D.

I am not asking anyone to question their own reasoning. I am asking for some of you to imagine your spouse as someone who recognizes their faults and who made successful efforts to correct those faults.

This might be too difficult. I don't mean that in a snarky way, but perhaps it sounds like I am asking people to second guess themselves. Please believe me, I am not asking for that at all.

for me, it is too late. he could recognize them all and it would not change anything for me. too much damage was done.

all it might do is allow me to completely close the door on our marriage. if he came to me full of remorse, making changes, etc.. i would say "good for you, thank you for the remorse, i pray that your life and next relationships will be happy and healthy" but that is all.

i am in a very happy relationship now. now i see what a good man really is. now i see what a good relationship really looks like. there is no way i would give that up and no way, even if my ex completely changed, no way i would go back. none.

and even if i wasn't with someone right now, i still, no matter what, would not take him back.

mlhb

and before separation/divorce was ever brought up, it was still too far gone. by the time i asked him to leave, and i went and got the legal sep, he could have come to me completely changed and remorseful and i would not have changed my mind. too much damage had been done. so, no, no matter what he did, i would not have stopped the legal sep or divorce proceedings. nope, nada, no way.

mlhb

I appreciate your honesty and candor.

I filed for my divorce. It wasn't what I wanted, but at the time it was what I needed for my kids and I to survive. My M didn't end because of an A, but he had an EA years before. We got past it. I found out about it after it had supposedly ended. I didn't know about MB but I insisted in NC because it was the only logical thing (it was online, she lived in another state).

The things that led to our D primarily involved his untreated/undiagnosed depression. I don't lay it all at his feet, but if that had have been dealt with, many of our problems would have either been avoided, OR we'd have had the know-how to BOTH deal with his situation more appropriately.

Before the D was final I did try to reconcile, since he'd got treatment for the depression and he was acting more like himself. He'd moved on, so had I but I ended things before the D and tried to put my M back together, but XH was involved with somebody and wouldn't make a choice. He entertained the idea of R with me, but kept GF on the front burner and me in his back pocket.

At that time he was doing some irresponsible things, financially, so I proceeded with the D, to safeguard child support, my property settlement and our business. We'd talked about putting a hold on the D, he was OK with that, but when I found out he was paying GF rent instead of his bills, that was a red flag.

I wrote him an email at the time stating that while this wasn't what I wanted, it was what I *needed* to survive. I told him then that I still love him and if his heart ever changed, I'd be willing to try to keep my own heart open.

That was 18 months ago. The GF left him a month ago (she'd moved out here, and now she's moved back to where she came from) but the R is not quite over. In the interim I had resumed my own relationship with the other man, but ended it some months ago (it just wasn't going to be a keeper, and I can't deny that I still love my XH) - at this point I'm better off on my own if XH doesn't want to try again - it wouldn't be fair to anyone else since my heart is where it is.

I'm hoping that once XH's R is finished dying its own slow, painful death, that he may have his fog lifted and he may reconsider a R. I have changed a lot about myself during my time on my own, and I have *seen* several changes in him, particularly since his GF left. He's taking care of business, getting his finances in order, being responsible for maybe the first time in his life, and since his depression has been managed (for about 2 1/2 years now), he's a lot more stable - no more mood swings- he changed back into the man I married.

Time will tell if he comes around - maybe he will, maybe he won't. In any case at least I have legal safeguards and I won't be a victim to his whims if he does decide to regress. I don't think he will, but at least I have peace of mind.

So in a nutshell - for me, filing was a matter of survival, not that I didn't love him and want to fix things, I just realized that I was only able to fix me, and I couldn't leave myself vulnerable, nor my kids vulnerable, in case he didn't fix himself.

JinGA

My x filed and moved out. I fought him tooth and toe nail for a year. He had his atty send mine an 'order of reconciliation' without talking with me first. I refused to sign it until he had signed it - his atty had signed it for him.

Long story short, he had checked out emotionally years earlier. Just went through the motions of being a husband - although he did actually father 2 children during that time. He had multiple EAs. All he ever said I did wrong was didn't keep house well enough, had punctuality issues, and didn't call if I was running behind schedule getting home.

I was in the dr's office once with what appeared to be an acid reflux problem that was actually stress related. But, when it began feeling like I was developing tachycardia, a year and a half after that order of reconciliation - which he did sign in order to get me to sign it - I knew it was time to do something. He had made no moves to reconcile the marriage. In fact, during one of our rare (by that point) joint meetings w/ the MC, he said he wanted to work on the marriage and my reply was, "talk is cheap - you've said that before but this time I will not believe you unless you show me with your actions. If you can't demonstrate it, don't say that to me again."

That was when I filed - on his birthday. I figured there was nothing better I could give him.

Seabird,

I think everyone has their point of no return, regardless of attempts at change by the other spouse. Once the Love Bank is drained of every last penny, the doors are shut and the OUT OF BUSINESS sign is posted.

For me, there was nothing that the X could have done to change that. She is who she is. I would not and did not even see any such actions as sincere. Pacifying is more like it.

The only bridge between us today is our DD. We co-parent fairly well. (fairly well - is that an oxy-moron?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I can better understand how some situations are more unforgivable than others. Like when physical or sexual abuse is present for instance.

But after my W dropped the bomb on me about wanting to D, I asked her what she wanted in a partner. Since then, I have come to realize that by bettering me, I should be able to fit into most if not all of the description that she gave me.

So I wonder if, after all the dust settles, why not pick me? This all assumes that my changes have been successful and consistent. Even if she doesn't pick me, there are rewards to be reaped from such changes. I understand this and it keeps me motivated. Besides, we have a shared history of good stuff, including the bond of two children. All other things being equal, I'd think most people would prefer to be with the other parent of their children.

But I understand that there is a point of no return as well. I posed this same question to my IC and he confirmed it as well. He predicted that these would be the kinds answers I would get.

I guess it's also not surprising that by posting in this particular forum, there would be very few people who would look at their decision to D and contemplate a different outcome. It is a difficult decision to process anyway, and to try and imagine an alternate outcome...

Perhaps I should have asked this Q in the EN forum if there are any people who HAVE put the brakes on their Ds because their spouses made demonstrable and long term changes...

Seabird, obviously, there is a point of no return. We have listed the reasons why, but that is so you get a picture of what our ex’s would have had to do. They didn’t. My ex did make an attempt about 2 ½ years after we separated. But, it was too little, too late. In the brief amount of time I went to marriage counseling then, I got more and more anxious and scared. He had a totally different view of our history than I did, flat out denying certain events. So, did he really change?

I believe people don’t often change “who” they are, they just change their behavior.

I also think it’s important to recognize there are certain things you yourself are unwilling to do to save your marriage.

Seabird, I still wonder if her desire to divorce is really about you and the marriage. I wonder if it's more of an identity crisis.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, though I wonder what exactly it means. How do we define ourselves? What makes us "who we are", if not our collective behaviors?


Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I am beginning to learn that there is a line between sacrificing my identity and changing my destructive behaviors. I think of it as the difference between who I am now, and who I WANT to be eventually. Or even, who I THOUGHT I was. Does that make sense?

My goal isn't to simply alter myself into what my W thinks is her ideal mate. I tried that two years ago and all it got me was a W who may or may not be at this so-called point of no return. I blew that first chance.

Now, all I am trying to do is discover my half of the failure of our M, and correct them permanently. Not just for the M, but for me in general because those failures don't stop at the M. As I said above, I am motivated because even if my W doesn't take me back, I still reap the rewards of an improved R with my children and anyone I am personally and professionally close to.


Could be... I have no way of really knowing at this point. I don't even know if she's still getting IC. I know that in the past, she could start going, then quit. I know that she has a LOT of unresolved issues related to her mom, and that she has been unhappy with her job for the last several months. Though that might have settled down in her mind by now - she doesn't discuss it with me anymore.

If she's having an identity crisis, I can only assume that someday she's going to get a kick in the rear by Mr. Reality. It would be nice if she looks up and sees me there as someone who has become a pretty good guy for her to know. A "safe place".

I don't think it's true people don't change - actually I chatted with a shrink at Starbucks one day, the former director of the hospital. He said people who have a "hole in the soul" as he called it are so often caught up in themselves, drinking, buying cars, whatever... even though he wasn't from a Christian background like me he said there's a "turning point" where people reach rock bottom and start to look inward instead of ourward. It's a spiritual thing almost - with my background I'd have to think that God can help anyone change. That's what the Bible is all about.

I think most people look back and "minimize" their behavior. They don't think what they did is as bad as it was. That's the forgiveness process, to forgive someone and move on - if it means reconciliation or if it means divorce. There's obviously a "turninig back" point even during a divorce as 30% of marriages in my state don't end in divorce once it's filed. I hear a lot of stories of people who remarry after a divorce. Certainly there is "hope" for all situations. If you don't "hope" then of course it's not going to happen for you. If you concentrate on "what happened" rather then what could be you'll remain stuck in the past, unable to change.

Of course it's helpful to change your self destruction behaviors. You need to work on YOU for YOU, not your W and what she wants in an ideal mate. What she wants may or may not be realistic. We are human, we make mistakes. Life goes on. No one is perfect, I dont' even think there's an ideal mate. I think we marry, pull out the mircroscope and see the other's flaws in detail - what we didn't see before we married, and we feel cheated.

The way you are thinking you might enjoy the book Spiritual Divorce, it's very helpful with the process of analyzing what part one had in a divorce, how to improve oneself and become a better person. Of course there are many other sources but that one has been helpful to me. If there's a chance for reconciliation then Hope for the Separated or other books that are hopeful... a divorce is never over until the papers are signed. A shrink we went to had many stories of healing and reconciliation. I don't know what your faith is, but the Christian perspective is a lot different then "the world." It might help you to explore Higher "stuff" - at the very least it'll help you get some peace in your life.