Thank you horsey. Your thoughts on hope and change exactly mirror my own. Thank you for the book suggestions as well.

What a thought-provoking thread. Given my own situation, much of the discussion here is very relevant to me.

I don't know if reconciliation is in the cards for me and my XH, I know I would like it to be, but it's not my choice alone, but part of my journey has been examining what I did right and what I did wrong, and how I've worked to recognize my own shortcomings rather than just pin it all on him.

I've owned my "stuff" for a long time. What ended it during the D for me, was that he never owned his "stuff" and continued to blame me for every little thing. I've seen a change in that - indirectly, but telling me directly, he's owned some of his stuff. He told his mother some stuff, and shared that email exchange with me (a few years ago) and even recently when his GF decided to move back home, he told me, "I guess what goes around, comes around" - he was the emotional, crying one, and she was cold and unmoved during that discussion. In our M I was the emotional one and *he* was cold and unfeeling most times. So in that regard, he's realizing some things about himself. The fact that he allowed himself to let his feelings show - both to her, and to me, speaks a lot about how he's been changing. The fact that he told me as such was huge too - both that he was able to get his feelings out, and the fact that at the time he felt safe in doing so with me.

A friend told me that marriage isn't about finding perfection - it's about finding someone whose imperfections you can live with, and that they can live with your imperfections. She has a point. Nobody's perfect, nor should they expect perfection - but if we can find some sort of compatibility and build on that, that's a good start.

When I filed and followed through, my love bank was totally empty - overdrawn even. Nowadays, whether XH realizes it or not, he's been making plenty of deposits. Has he made every one that he could have? No. But he's made plenty. And if he misses a chance to, I try not to dwell on it or consider it a withdrawal - rather it's a deposit he declined to make, and it doesn't cancel out deposits he's already made, or will make. I think this change in *my* attitude makes a huge difference in how we interact with one another. Again - not expecting perfection - acknowledging efforts, but overlooking things that he could have done but didn't if they aren't hugely important in the big picture.

Similarly, I'm trying to keep making love bank deposits to him. Have I missed opportunities? Most likely - but I'm not hearing from him that I've let him down.

I don't believe he knows about MB or its principles but it doesn't matter - the principles work whether or not both parties are aware of them.

Time will tell in my case, if I can build up enough deposits with him, for him to consider reconciling, but it's worth the effort, and it's not really a huge effort on my part, because it's what I want to do. Even if nothing more comes of it, I don't feel like it's time wasted, it's time well invested because to me, and to our kids, he's worth it.

And it's a heck of a lot easier, and better for everyone than being a scorned bizzznitch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Horsey, I think you and I agree more than you think. You are talking about people who change destructive behaviors. I don't think the core essence of them changes. I believe addictions and the "holes in the soul" can actually mask the core person. I believe when someone hits rock bottom, and God lifts them up, it is to change their perspective and their behavior, not their essence. After all, God made them.

I also think that for the majority of people, change feels big to the individual changing, but from the outside, the person's personality and character appear steady. Sue may be a firey red-head, but when she gets a better handle on her temper, it doesn't mean she's turned into a demure Debra. The exception being recovering addicts, mentally ill etc. But, they are not common.

Jin - Your thread, along with several others, were all part of my inspiration for this one. I have seen a consistent theme with people who are D'd or on their way, who pushed for it, but all the while wishing that their spouse would step up and do the things necessary to help put a stop to it. I don't know if that will ever be my W or not.

Green - can you please explain what you mean by "core essense"? I'd really like to understand this concept better.

I tend to think that I project the kind of person I'd like to be to the rest of the world. Due to time, proximity, and experience, my W may think of me differently than the rest of the world does. That who I project, isn't necessarily who I am. I want to really be that person - not just some facade. How do I define my core essence in all of this?

Boy do you have that right. Initially my asking him to move out was somewhat of a bluff. We'd been teetering on it for a long time... a few years, but I finally asked him to move out, and he did. I had *hoped* that this move would finally send the message home that I couldn't take any more of the destruction and abuse he was giving. That wasn't who he *is*... he was depressed and had been for a long, long time but it had come to a point where I just couldn't take living on eggshells anymore. He wasn't physically abusive - but he was emotionally abusive.

In return I withheld SF - I no longer felt connected to him, he was cold and unemotional and we got into the vicious circle of NOT meeting each other's EN or PN and the wedge drove further and further til eventually I put my foot down.

The depression was a root cause (by his own admission later) to a lot of crappy behaviors that eroded my love and trust in him, put us at risk, and I just reached a point where I couldn't deal with it anymore.

I *thought* that once he got the wake-up call that this wasn't acceptable, that he'd get control of himself, and do what he needed to do to come home again. In hindsight, he did do some things, but at that point I was still too angry and hurt to listen to what he was trying to tell me. That was my mistake. He did seek treatment for his depression, it took a while to find the right meds, but he did. He bottomed out - his behaviors caused the mutual friend he was living with, to put him out. At one point he was sleeping in our store, for about 2 weeks from when he was put out of our friends' place, until he could get an apartment. He was even suicidal at that point (he left a "will" where I'd find it). He didn't attempt to harm himself, but at that point I figured he was at rock bottom.

By then someone else had expressed an interest in me, and I in him, and I started a R way too soon. It was about 6 months post-separation. I suppose if XH had have come to me at that point, I may have been open to the idea of R, but perhaps not - I really can't say. The buzz from something new and different *is* very powerful.

So I moved on. Shortly thereafter so did he. I don't blame him... my R ended (so I thought) and even before it did, I had a talk with XH about reconciliation (I knew my R was not a keeper, and I couldn't push back the feelings for XH anymore). We had a good talk then, hugged even. He was thinking about it. A week later, my R ended. I tried to talk to XH again, but his R was long-distance but going well for him and he sort of kind of wanted to explore things with me, but not leave the GF behind, so between that and finding out some other stuff I decided to go ahead with the D.

He was right - when I approached him, I expected him to come running with open arms, and when he didn't, I balked. That's my fault. So he continued his R.

Shortly thereafter, my ended R was resumed again (I didn't initiate it again but I went along with it). So we spent the last year in separate relationships. I ended mine some months ago - lots of reasons, but I knew it wasn't going to be a forever thing, so I let it go. There were other issues too.

I let XH be, I never interfered in his R, but I was overjoyed to learn she was leaving him. I didn't express that to him (nor will I) - I took no pleasure in his pain...I was sympathetic and supportive. I've continued to be as much as I can be, but I don't bring her name up at all.

So that brings me around to where I'm at now. And it wasn't my intention to thread-jack - just that offering up a bit more info might provide you with a bit more insight into where I'm coming from.

I've admitted to myself that I love my XH, I always have, and always will. No matter what I did to try to turn those feelings off - they are there. Time will tell if I'll get to really show him once more - that's not up to me at this point, beyond little things I can do to make love bank deposits. I'm sure he'd tell you his love bank was overdrawn too, and I have to own that also.

As I stated earlier - divorce was not at all what I wanted, but at the time it was what I needed to ensure my survival, emotionally, financially and professionally. It makes it a bit harder to try to reconcile since technically there's no M to save - but on the other hand, he's not still stuck with me so if he does choose to try again, he can do it from the standpoint of being free to do so, not chained to an M he feels obligated to do something with.

I applaud you, Seabird, for recognizing things within yourself that you wish to change. I think if more people were able to do that, there would be a lot fewer divorces. Regardless of what happens with you and your W, YOU will be better off in the long run, and a better person regardless, and that is a great gift to give yourself.

If reconciliation with your wife is what you seek, I hope for you that it happens. Time will tell. It's hard... very hard, to be patient and see... but at least we're all in good company!

JinGA

Things could have been different....we could have stayed together (I think??) if he had kept his promises and told me the entire truth of his infidelity when I initially found out.

DH and I were seperated 18 months ago for 8 months. I gave birth to our youngest daughter at this time. I left due to stress over being a step mom and pregnant again after our 1st daughter was only 6 months old. There were also some money issues due to gambling. While seperated DH cheated on me with his ex-wife. I found out weeks before youngest daughter was born. He made promises to me.....we decided to try and work through it.

The promises he made were never kept....and if he had followed through on those promises I would have an easier time believing he careed about me, respected me and honestly felt bad about what he did. I found out about more infidelity prior to our marriage (but after we were dating) once I returned last summer....and it all just boils down to TRUST.

MY DH is lazy and lacks motivation and confidence in himself. If he would have just shown an honest interest in working as a family being a partner to me and showing some humility and regret sometimes.....I would have been able to move beyond the infidelity.

Meanwhile...I have spent the past year trying to show him my commitment to him and this family. I have not always held my tongue, and that is something I MUST learn to do, but I have always tried to let him know how much he means to me and how proud I am of him as a friend, father and husband. The sad thing is....I think my DH just feels guilty when I say nice things to him...when I express my love. I am not at all sure that he feels he deserves love.

I just don't understand how people can throw away love for the sake of pride.

I love my husband....very much. But I have to move on with my life. I can't make this work all on my own. So I shall start a new life wihout him....even if it means my heart is broken.

So....to answer your question. IF my husband had just followed through and tried to connect with me with sincerity and real interest. That was all I would have needed!!

Boy does that strike a chord with me too! I tried and tried, but I felt that he wouldn't, or maybe couldn't follow through on his promises. I heard them so many times I knew they'd be broken before he even uttered them.

That's where he *seems* to be different now. He's made some big changes and that's what has built up my love bank for him again. I don't know if he's even beginning to see me in a different light, but that's what I'm trying to do too - show him where I've changed, where I've grown, and perhaps to see if it can work better than it was before, even during the good times.

There's only so much a person can take. Some folks I've seen here just get to a point where no amount of love bank deposits will make a difference, and some can re-open that door. Some spouses do come around and try to rebuild, and some don't. There are so many variables it seems.

I'm loving this thread - it really is giving me a lot to think about <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Well, I take some heart in your words Jin. Your's too HRM2. While my W seems nowhere interested in MC or R, I think it's because she has the same lack of faith that you express; that I had already tried to change before and it didn't work, so what's the point now. Does that sound familiar?

That's why I hope that over time, provable consistent behavior on my end might change her mind.

Possibly, because your W is all too aware of your dark side. Your recent changes are just that, ...recent. They haven't stood up the the challenge of time. It may all seem like a facade to your W. So much so, that she may not trust that it is genuine, durable and everlasting.

Trust, is probably the key word.

If she does not trust in you, she will likely not choose to continue with you.

That's why I qualified with "long term and consistent". I said it several times as a matter of fact.

I wonder the same thing - if there was so much hurt between XH and me, that he could never trust me again.

Keep in mind, I didn't step out of the M. He did. I didn't lie. He did. However *I* was the one that took the steps to end things, and that hurt him greatly.

I do believe we've both hurt each other, perhaps "equally" but in different ways, if that makes sense.

I can try again, but I don't know if it's within him to take that leap of faith in me. May seem unfair, but that's how it is.

Seabird, having read your posts, *I* believe you're sincere. Keep that going - if WW doesn't see it, perhaps down the road somebody else will <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's sort of how I'm approaching it. I have no interest in anyone other than my XH, but doing what I'm doing is good for *me*, and becoming a better person is for *me*. If things aren't meant to be between XH and me ever again, once I can learn to live with it, I'll be a better partner to somebody down the road. And if that partner never comes along, at the end of the day I'll be a better Mom, and a better person to *myself*.

JinGA

Thank you Jin, and FWIW, I AM sincere. Problem is, I was sincere last time too. I wanted to make the changes that she said she wanted and I worked toward them diligently. I never intended to cultivate some facade, only to let it crumble away as soon as she let down her guard. Unfortunately, the changes that I had made weren't focused properly and I failed to dig deeply enough within myself to discover the root of my behaviors. Another analogy; it's like pulling weeds. If you don't get the roots, more weeds grow in the same spot.

That's why I understand that this time my changes have to bear out over the long haul. She has to like what she sees over a period of months at first, maybe even years.

As for your own concerns about finding someone else if your XH doesn't come around, something TTM posted a while back about safety seems appropriate here. Forgive me for paraphrasing here, but it was along the lines of why he wanted to be become a SAFE person. If you had someone like that in your life, would you ever want to leave them? It's an attractive quality in anybody.

Well, Seabird, for what it's worth, your W loses if she doesn't give you at least one more shot. It takes a lot of cajones to pay more than lip service to changes. And even though the first try at change didn't stick, you didn't quit. Like I said, in the long run with or without her YOU will be in a much better place.

Regarding your quote above, I'm not sure I understand the context you were trying to convey.

Safe is good - yes. We gravitate towards those with whom we feel safe. Lately XH has treated me as if I am a safe person to share some feelings with, particularly when the GF dropped her bomb. I suppose that's a good sign, because if he didn't trust me even a little, he wouldn't have let himself be vulnerable that way with me.

Is that what you meant, or did I misunderstand?

JinGA

Sorry for not being clear Jin. It was a round-about response to this comment:


It sounds to me like you have made a lot of necessary changes and become a "safe" person in your own right. Whether it's your XH or not, I would think that there is any number of people out there who would want to gravitate to such a person of safety.

Perhaps 'safe' is better word than trust. She decides if and when she feels safe, no matter how long and consistent your scenario plays out.

Your qualifier skews the question in such a way that you are likely to get the answer that you desire. It makes you out to be a SAFE person (as you put it). Of course, the logical answer to your skewed question is that she should pick you. You can answer that yourself.

I don't understand. How does the qualifier skew the question? I simply want to know how and when people who drive for D decide that there is no going back at all. Everything that I have read and discussed with my IC dictates long term consistent change in behavior. Matter of fact, "long term" doesn't really convey my intent. "Permanent" is really what I'm shooting for. I am simply trying to acknowledge that my W won't trust those changes or even be willing to consider them unless she observes them over a period of time. How long, I have no idea.

Because it gives the illusion of a person who actually possesses all the desireable 'qualities' that the other spouse would never want to leave.

I view a behavioral makeover as a mask. A person can make behavioral changes and become a 'new man', for instance. But that does not mean that he actually possesses those natural qualities and character traits that make up this 'new man' that that other spouse truly desires. The real man, the man that the other spouse knows and did NOT desire, is still beneath all those 'changes'.

The other spouse may view those attempted changes as unnatural, no matter how long, consistant and sincerely they are portrayed. There will always be that underlying fear, that if they get too close to what 'appears' to be a safe situation, they will get burned again.

BA - what would make your perception of me, different from your perception of Seabird? Just curious because you seem to be giving me credit for the changes I've made - and I'm still very much a work in progress... however Seabird seems to be making the same statements, yet you cast doubt, at least as far as his W may see it.

I'm not trying to argue with you - not at all, just trying to explore that point.

I didn't change overnight. In fact XH may not think I've changed at all - he may or may not have noticed how I've reacted differently to certain things (last week I had a pretty delicate conversation but kept things under control and didn't initiate a fight)... but in March I fell back on my old ways under big time stress... the difference is, once I realized what was happening, I put on the brakes, apologized for initiating the conflict and asked that we just stop arguing - which he did.

Time will tell if he has noticed this or not.

I've always considered myself to be "safe" in the ways that were important, but the love-busters happened when he wouldn't respond in kind - he wasn't "safe" to me, and he often felt I wasn't "safe" even though I was (I thought).

He's demonstrated some trust in me - to a point, so we'll see if we can expand on that. I haven't let him down yet, that I'm aware of... but like I said I'm still a work in progress.

I do understand what you're saying - once bitten, twice shy... but any relationship, whether it be a reconciliation or a new relationship, takes a leap of faith. In reconciliation, we have to take a chance based on what has happened in the past. In a new relationship we have to go with blind faith.

Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know (but not always....)

JinGA

ba - So any attempt to change is merely affectation? And that the underlying flaws that created problems for the other spouse aren't really rectifiable? Is that what you are saying?

Can I ask what do you base this on?

The depth and breadth of change in behavior is at the root.

The MB principles are great at re-establishing romantic love that was lost because people got lazy. At the root is the assumption that the spouses knew each other and were in love with each other when they married. If love is lost, it’s because people starting committing lovebusters and/or stopped meeting emotional needs. If one goes back to the behaviors exhibited in courtship, with some modifications for time and change in circumstances love should return.

So, if your wife was 140 at marriage, and loved to bowl, fish and whatever with you, and now she’s 180, hasn’t had a decent hair cut in years and wants to watch Opera instead of do something with you, then all she has to do is go back to how she was before.

Now, compare that with a situation where the going back to the beginning wouldn’t help. I married a hippy, throw-back, free spirit, who had never even rented an apartment in his 45 years of life. (We can have a great time analyzing all the reasons why I married him.) In order for me to stay married to him, he had to become organized, run his business as a business including taking a salary, fix a legal situation that had lingered for years and years and could have landed him in jail, learn to pick up after himself, learn that weekends didn’t mean reading the paper and doing something fun when your wife works full time.

In order for me to stay with B, I would have had to stop caring if my home looked like white trash and was cluttered to the gills, or what people thought about that, I’d have to figure it wasn’t worth worrying over my H getting thrown in jail, and that my say in life didn’t really count. I’d have had to stop be willing to take vacations if and when others invited us to their vacation homes, not want to save etc.

For us, the behaviors were so deep and so wide that it really reached changing our very selves, our spirits, our souls. I did try, and while it made my then H happy, I was coming unglued emotionally. When my then H made an attempt, it didn’t last long at all, and in the end, I wouldn’t have trusted any promised, or even attempts to change because I knew him. (I think this is why divorce is so devastating—because we do know our spouses and they know us.)

Fundamentally, when values are dramatically different, and you ask someone to behave in a way that is different from their values, you have a mask. And I don’t believe individuals can just say “Today, I’m going to value organized religion” and they love going to church every Sunday, and they join the vestry. When people suddenly start acting in a way that conflicts with what we know about their values and character, we wonder what the heck is going on.

Now, to Horsey’s point. I do believe that in dramatic circumstances, people’s values can dramatically shift. A death, a birth, finding yourself in an alleyway covered in vomit and urine. Divorce.

And that dovetails beautifully with the issue of trust. I don’t believe trust is something we have conscious control over. I can say as much as I want “I trust my H when he tells me he’s working late,” but that doesn’t make it so. I think trust is a conditioned response. Trust sort of falls into the love boat. People who say “Love is a choice” are talking about caring actions that demonstrate love, not the feeling. People can say “You choose to trust,” but that’s the action part, not the feeling part.