Mrs. W,
I have been thinking EXACTLY the same thoughts... I'm with the "damage-control" school of thought.

If this is the real deal - remorse and all of that... you've got to get to a place where you can read that email - that CLEARLY seeking another email - and feel your own skin crawl over how icky it is.

Do you hear the absolute derision for your W in the words? I think you didn't do anything with the email address you received because a.) you either got cought before you had a chance to, or b.) you hadn't gotten up the nerve to push the envelope that far yet.

I only say that because I've been there, done that.

Mrs.W & the others are super-smart & know their stuff - if you are willing to dive into the deep stuff - this is a good place. And unfortunately, getting up to your neck in the ick of your own making is sort of required for recovery.


Good luck.

Morning folks,

In keeping with the tradition of infidelity insomnia, I was up at 2 am and read what Skirmisher posted last night. Note that he is a writer by profession, an author with several published books....he chooses his words carefully (magnifying the impact of the email). He is walking on egg shells, trying to say the right things.

After reading his post, I woke him up ( the price of being a wayward, no sleepee for the BS, no sleepee for the WS) to discuss it. I really am trying to explain to him that his posts need to express what he feels and what is truly in his heart. No one here is grading him on style. Only when he tells us all what is really in his heart will anyone be able to help him out.

Mrs. W., I have asked him to reply to your questions, might be awhile since I kept him up talking the rest of the night. I'm at work now, so he's probably trying to catch some sleep.

As hard as this has been for me, for those who are wondering and worrying, I really am doing OK. I realized that this morning when I turned on my office computer and found myself smiling at the darling picture of my grandson on my screen.

No matter what happens in my marriage, I want Skirmisher to get better and have a meaningful life. He has his shortcomings and so do I, some of them pretty terrible. He also has many wonderful qualities or I wouldn't still be here. At the mere age of 26, he became a father to my two young daughters from my first marriage. And he was a great Dad to them and they remain very close to him.

I have told him that at this point, he has to do the heavy lifting and take the lead towards recovery. I have been warned here many times by folks that my LB was critically low and that my WH needed to do some work. I ignored that advice and here we are now, back to square one.

I realize now that I saw and knew at the reunion that even tho he had been pretty much walking the straight and narrow for the last 3.5 years, that in his heart he was still wayward and that it was only a matter of time until he had another affair.

I believe that my seeing the email was fate. I wasn't even looking for it. The laptop was on and the page was up on the screen when I picked up the computer to check my email. When I saw a message with the Reunion subject line I opened it because I knew it would confirm that he was still wayward in his heart even tho he might not be actively engaging in an affair.

What I want more than anything else is for him to become the person he has the capacity to be. If we don't make it, well, I still want that for him because even if he is reluctant to admit it, he doesn't like the person he is, and that is no way to live your life.

Who

MrsWondering,

<< Can you now admit this was a betrayal skirmisher? >>

Yes, I can see that. But it took some additional perspectives to help me to.

<< If so, have you said this to WhoMe? >>

Yes, I have admitted this to her.

<< Can you see how immature and wrong that is? >>

Yes, it is pretty immature and wrong.

<< What did you learn about yourself after your affair? What in you allowed you to choose to cheat? >>

The main thing I learned was that I have capacity to do some pretty dumb, callous things. What I have realized over the past week is that I can't trust my own judgment nearly as much as I would like.

<< Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you hadn't emailed either of those women YET? That you were still entertaining the thought of doing so somewhere in your mind? >>

I made a conscious decision not to email either of them because I knew it was a bad idea on any number of levels. Whether I would have ever do so or not I honestly can't either deny or admit to; just as there is no sure way to know I wouldn't have, there is no sure way to know I would have, either.

Re. counseling, et al:
<< Will you do both of these things skirmisher? If so, when? If not, why not? >>

Working on it right now ...

Sorry if my answers seem a little short but, wayward spouse or not, I am still exhausted and sick and overwhelmed by everything that is crashing down around me. The fact that it is my fault doesn't lessen that as much as one might think. Wanted to show respect for your time and efforts by replying to your questions, but am not out of here for awhile. Haven't bathed for a couple of days, need to eat, have to try figure out how to start putting a dent in the pile of things that is stacking up on me. No, none of those things are as important as my marriage, and I expect to get some heat for mentioning them, and it's all pretty much collapsing anyway. But I need to do the best I can to hold it all together anyway.

Rock bottom does not neceessarily mean waking up half-dressed, penniless in the gutter with no place go go.

Rock bottom can be found in the confines of a $1.5 million dollar home, with 3 cars in the garage, all worth over $100k.

Rock bottom is where you should find yourself today, after having treated your W the way you did, and the continuing of your "entitled" thinking.

Having read all this thread, you have received a Cliff Notes version, maybe more, of how shabbily you handled the entire situation, which is extremely damning of your "place in life", and how you have treated your W so poorly.

I hope you realize this is perhaps the most important crossroads in your life. All of us here hope that.

What you do from today forward is who you are. Perhaps it took this somewhat unique experience for you to realize that you are perhaps NOT who you thought you were, before this thread popped up? You have been allowed to peek into your soul through this thread, and I think perhaps you are a bit shocked by what you've seen. Today is the day that you can recreate yourself as the person you SHOULD be, MOSTLY for your own sake, but for your abused W's and family's sake, as well. Only you can make the difference. Only you can be held responsible for the change. Only you can be responsible for the committment. skirmisher, "this is your life".

What will you do?

SD

Mel,

Does Foolish work?

Cherished,


Believe me, I am there. I think Skirmisher knows it. He's got to take the lead here....I'm all used up. He's in pretty bad shape right now, sorta hit hard at the bottom of the pit and I don't have anything much left to help him up right now. I will be here when he gets up and will help him find his way when he needs help. But I simply don't know how this will end up except that I'll be OK either way.

Just Kim,

Not at all, I am kinda tired tho, and getting too thin again, I didn't have any excess weight to drop right now.



Yup and I had changed it to reflect a better attitude. Jinxed myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Who

WhoMe,

When you get to that point, you don't just threaten to leave -- you prepare to leave.

It's the 180 plan except that you aren't following it to be like a single woman playing "hard to get." You've had it. You've decided you aren't spending the rest of your life like this.

This is the copy of a post from mlhb: "for me, it is too late. he could recognize them all and it would not change anything for me. too much damage was done.

all it might do is allow me to completely close the door on our marriage. if he came to me full of remorse, making changes, etc.. i would say "good for you, thank you for the remorse, i pray that your life and next relationships will be happy and healthy" but that is all.

i am in a very happy relationship now. now i see what a good man really is. now i see what a good relationship really looks like. there is no way i would give that up and no way, even if my ex completely changed, no way i would go back. none.

and even if i wasn't with someone right now, i still, no matter what, would not take him back."

When you get to that point, you won't be thinking, "What I want more than anything else is for him to become the person he has the capacity to be." You'll be thinking that you need to get away from him -- you'll wish him well and wish him gone.

Cherished

Cherished,

I ain't going anywhere....I own the house! But I do guess that I'm not quite there. A lot is riding on how his sessions go with Jennifer. He is scheduled right after we get back from Bermuda week after next.

Interesting....here is my post from right after the reunion.

ST & Faithful,

Thanks for the responses. I haven't been here for the last couple of days. I will try your suggestions.

We had a rough weekend. Went to my FWH's multi-year XXXXX American High School Reunion. At one point, a woman came over to the table to talk to him. No one he ever dated before, but someone he hadn't seen for like 25 years!

We were sitting at a table and she pulled up a chair. Well more and more while they chatted, he turned toward her and away from me. Well, before long, his back was totally to me. I got up to use the rest room and he didn't even notice I was gone. It really ruined the evening for me.

It may sound silly, but as I tried to explain it to him, I was never and still aren't a jealous wife type. My FWH always had loads of female friends in the past. One of those friends became the OW. He openly talked about her to me and even went to visit her at her home 3000 miles away during their A. I never questioned him about it, but then he had failed to mention that she had divorced her H nearly a year earlier.

I tried to explain to him how it felt to have lost the ability to trust my own judgement when it comes to trusting him around former friends. I told him that even now, I can't be sure that if I hadn't accompanied him to the reunion, he wouldn't have behaved inappropriately.

The bottom line for me is, I don't think that I will ever stop wondering what he is doing, whenever I'm not right there watching. I want and deserve a H that I feel can be trusted and I can't ever have that with him again.

More and more, I think that makes me a failure at recovery.

Who

WhoMe,

For you to think you are a failure at recovery is BS fog. WSs make the most of BS fog. Read some Lemonman posts.

I heard a joke somewhere that a man came home to his wife and said he'd won the lottery. The wife said to him to get packing. He asked where -- to the beach or the mountains. She said -- I don't care where you go. Just pack and go!

Cherished

WHO,
I HAVE BEEN READING YOUR POST AND I JUST WANTED TO
GIVE YOU A ((HUG)). SORRY YOU ARE GOING THRU THIS
BUT YOU SOUND LIKE A STRONG LADY AND FOR WHAT IT'S
WORTH IM PRAYING FOR YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DHD

Don't know what it's worth, but you're not alone.

{{{{{{WhoMe}}}}}}} and {{{{{{{{Dobie}}}}}}}

To me you are both in the same situation.

I know this is Skirmisher's thread and this is a t/j of sorts but the behaviour of both your H's is real WS behaviour.

Does anyone here think Skirmisher "gets it" besides me?

Personally, I think as WhoMe has said, that Skirmisher is very good with words.

If he gets it, and he should get it by now - he's had his eyes opened - that's a huge step in the right direction. But it's not the end, it's just the beginning.

To be totally honest, no I don't believe skirmisher "gets it". I'm not trying to be critical of him. I just don't think it is in his current mindset to be able to get it. I think he knows he is not getting it. I think a part of him wants to get it. He just doesn't know what "it" is. He can find out. IC will help him discover "it". But he has a lot of years to unlearn. Of course it can be done. But, at the moment, he is still lost IMO.

BTW this reminded me of the 7th grade. There was a girl I had a serious crush on. Linda, let's call her. Actually we can call hr that because Linda was, in fact, her real name. I told my best friend to tell her for me. Soften the blow of possible rejection. So he goes to her and says "[my last name] likes you". She got excited. Turns out that there was another guy with my last name in the 7th grade too. He got an instant girlfriend and he hadn't even been interested before.

One thing I have learned from Latin culture is that you never ever turn your back on someone. If you are sitting in a group and someone else comes along and they are behind you, you move so your back is not to them. Okay you may think that is curteosy and I should have known that. In Latin culture, it is far more. It is considered a serious and very personal insult to have someone with their back to you. [actually I'm surprised more people aren't killed on elevators] So, my advice, always be aware of where you are and always respect those around you. This is one of the many good lessons that WW has taught me.

I think getting it all at once would be too much for them. If mine really got the devastation he's caused and what he stands to lose, I can't imagine he could function. I wouldn't be able to.

I read the e-mail and without even reading all the other posts yet, I was thinking to myself....uggghh!!! Does this man not get what he is doing? And then I think about my WH and the denial that they stay in when it doesn't look like a full blown affair. They convince themselves that because it's more shades of gray, they are innocent. Yuck! That was an awful thing for this man to do and my heart goes out to his wife. I would not trust him one bit and to me it's like going right back to ground zero which really stinks when you feel like you've got some "recovery" time under your belt.

I don't think he does. As I said, he may only be starting to get that he doesn't get it. He is just programmed wrong at the moment. I sometimes do things that upset my WW. I have no clue why they upset her. I just accept that they do and try to avoid repeating them but, in my mind, they weren't necessarily wrong. If it weren't for her reaction, I wouldn't necessarily avoid the behavior. I don't think skirmisher realizes there is something inherently wrong with him. I think he recognizes that he is doing something to hurt his W and I do believe he would like to avoid hurting her. I'll give him that much credit.

FWIW Pio, I was taught never to turn my back on anyone when there is a group of people talking. To me it's the height of rudeness. I always move my chair out or move backwards so everyone is included.