Probably the same thing they determined in the other instances where affair marriages created conflict on the board.

That's their privilege, right? But if memory serves, all the other occasions were with a wayward one spewing venom and deriding betrayed spouses. This one isn’t.

Nope, incorrect.

There have been several A marriages..usually the former [coughformercough] OP is now BS and wants to do what BSs do.

Then MFZ's thread won't be out here much longer, will it? Again, that's the owner's choice.

Yes it is.

Speaking in opposition to affair marriages is *my* choice.

Provided the language isn't deemed so offensive that the mods are willing to "take steps" to put a gag order on me on pain of disfellowship [read banned camp] I think it highly unlikely that my mere objection will result in much sound and fury on the part of management.

What is being asked for is undisputed acceptance and support whether you think it's a good idea or not.

I don't think that's likely to come about without some serious enforcement measures.

Okay, but Noodle...if the moderators do NOT banish MFZ from GQII...will you join me in abiding by their decision?

Nope.

Their decision will be to allow him to continue to post. Not to demand that everyone agree with his choices.

That has always been the case. They will neither forcibly remove him or forcibly support him.

I am free to disagree provided I do not cross a boundary with regard to personal attacks and specific language that would be deemed in defiance of board protocal.

I will continue to speak out against it even if it is not expressly prohibited.

Oh, no one is attempting to stifle free speech. That's a Constitutional Right very dear to my heart. But, I hope you will understand when I show MFZ how to put users on “Ignore” who don’t feel they can be constructive in his case. Can you agree with me that, while you retain your right to criticize even the owners of this site, MFZ has a right to not listen to some speech?

He doesn't need my permission to ignore me Longhorn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Incidentally..you might want to change your post above for accuracy and consistency..

You said "But, I hope you will understand when I show MFZ how to put users on “Ignore” who don’t feel they can be constructive in his case"

Since I consider my advice and opinion completely constructive why not own your "help" in the name of free speech and just SAY...

"But, I hope you will understand when I show MFZ how to put users on “Ignore” who *I* don’t feel can be constructive in his case or at least contructive by my definition."

That belief of yours must really get in the way when you just really want someone to either agree with you or shut it.

Understood, and that's not what I was asking. I was asking for your understanding of my actions. I give you respect. I ask for a small portion of it in return. Is it too much to ask?

Longhorn,

I am not sure which situation Noodle is referring to but if it is mine... here was the official final word from JustUss after I emailed and corresponded with both JustUss and Dr. Harley.



After much debate over whether or not I had a right to post here or not... I asked Dr. Harley and JustUss for help making a decision about it. I chose to move off of GQ and post on less travelled forums of MB... however I was NOT told by either Dr. Harley or JustUss that I couldn't or shouldn't post of GQ.

I came to the choice in the end to move off of GQ because the fighting about it became non productive. If Zog stays here ... which he can and won't be told by administration or owners of this site that he can't he will have to go toe to toe again and again with those who don't want him posting on GQ. In the end where I didn't have it in me to fight that battle anymore.

Dr. Harley did share with me that he doesn't POST at all to this part of the message board but does in the private area where people can only post after attending an MB weekend. He shared that there are people in situations like Zog's and mine and that although the road to recovery is much more difficult that most infidelity affected marriages... it isn't impossible.

I don't think he chooses to help them because he is PRO AFFAIR either. I think he chooses to help them in the hope that he can help them break the cycle of infidelity. A marriages are more likely to suffer further infidelity because the whole affair fantasy continues. Replacing your spouse in the hopes that then you will be happy shows where your beliefs are flawed. I falsey believed that if I was with a new partner miraculously I would be better. It was an utterly ridiculous belief because when I married my affair partner I was still me... as was my H. We carried all the prior baggage into this marriage.

The fantasy doesn't continue... it does end at some point and this is the point where both of the people in the affair marriage are left with the false assumption that it was their partners job to fix them and when they don't... they go back to the fantasy that if they just find the right person again... replace with someone new then all will be okay. Guess what... it won't. You will still be the unhealthy baggage filled person until you get off that fantasy bus... step back into reality and start owning your stuff.

If those of us that find ourselves on this self destructive path eventually catch a clue... and there are some very remarkable people here who are able to bring reality again and again to those of us who still have a wayward mentality (even though I I never again committed adultery, cheated, slept with someone else's husband and behaved in all the despicable behaviors that I once did... my belief that I wasn't in control of myself or that I could control or change others) left me in a still waywardesque state of mind.

People CAN change... they can learn from others here... who have a lot to offer whether it be in recovering a marraige or just yourself from living in a self destructive mindset.

Whether they should move off GQ was an issue for some of them and for others it was that we shouldn't be here anywhere at all. They are entitled to their opinions and I choose to no longer be offended by what they believe. I will not deny their pain.

Nor do I think it is a fair statement that just because someone drove their life so far off in the ditch that they are hopeless.

Fine I got what I deserved... BS and WS that want to derive some joy from that... fine by me. If they want to deny that just because you once cheated that becoming a BS is somehow less painful for that person because they SHOULD have EXPECTED it... well sorry I disagree with that one. Maybe I should have been able to predict that it was likely to happen again (I didn't... I am a slow learner) however to deny that the pain was any less real to me is a false statement.

No one that has not walked in those shoes can honestly answer that as TRUTH... they can assume to know what it might feel like... feel free but only someone who has been a betrayed spouse knows what it feels like. You just don't.

So while my choice to stop posting my situation in GQ (yes I realize I am right now posting here regarding this)came not from JustUss telling me that I shouldn't or Dr.Harley telling me I shouldn't because neither of them told me that. I made that choice because in the end the posters who pointed out the debate itself distracted from me focusing on my real issues were the ones that got through to me.

If my posting here this time helps Zog move his thread out of GQ and back to Emotional Needs where perhaps he can get some support then this post will be worth it.

There will always be those that believe the only solution for these marriages is divorce... their choice... their beliefs. Same goes for those that believe that any OC born should be given up for adoption... their choice and their belief. Doesn't make it the TRUTH... just their truth.

IMVHO Zog has a choice... stay here on GQ and try to defend himself in this debate or move back to EN forum and focus on his stuff. His choice... others choice if he moves back to EN to stay off his thread unless they think they think they might be able to help him.

If the debate is over where on this board we should post... and it isn't on GQ then we honor that request... seems like we hold up our end of the boundary. Like MEDC stated... when I left GQ... he left me alone. His boundary was for me to get off GQ and when I did he held up his end of that boundary. I thank you for that MEDC because I did notice that you have.

So if Zog leaves and goes to EN then I hear MEDC stating that he will back off. Big K and BobPure also seem to support this boundary as well. If I misunderstood any of the above mentioned posters boundaries then I apologize.

If this is the boundary enforcement for us then I highly urge Zog to go back to EN forum and those that think they might be able to help him do it there so that 10 more months are spent debating this whole thing again.

To answer question one...I do not condone your choice to enable an affair.

To answer question two...whether it is too much to ask depends entirely on what qualifies as respectfull treatment by your measure.

It may BE too much to ask. I guess we'll have to take it on a case by case basis as per usual.

Well, thanks for being honest and courteous, Noodle. The latter has been a scarce commodity here lately.

Thanks for the insight into Dr. Harley's thoughts in such things as this, Jilly. Like you, I believe Dr. Harley works to end the cycle of infidelity with his best advice. I don't see that a failed third marriage would contribute to anyone’s benefit.

The problem I see with confining certain people to EN is that they won't get the varied advice from multiple users as they would here in GQII. However, that problem may have been solved with the recent debate here. Certainly, if MFZ decides to return to his thread in EN, I'll follow him over, as I hope the pros on this board will also do. It'll be my first time on EN, which is my way of illustrating the fact that EN has fewer viewers than GQII. It's MFZ's decision though. I’ll conform to what he desires.

Thanks for sharing the email from the moderator, Jilly. I think it’s very illuminating.

You're very welcome.

It is indeed very illuminating.

Eventually this board will probably succumb entirely and I'll have to bid it adieu having no choices left but to support the corruption of long term affairs or leave.

After seeing the movie Walk the Line, about Johnny Cash's affair and then second marriage to his affair partner, my husband said that he thought Johnny had been able to redeem himself.

That's not how I saw it. My husband didn't ask, so I didn't say anything.

There is a whole different mentality from mine that would result in someone thinking a successful second marriage with an affair partner somehow justified the affair. Harley's principles are solidly behind trying to make the first marriage work by treating your wife as if she were your lover.

The problem with leaving a first wife for a more compatible second wife is that wife number three may be out there somewhere. Commitment is only for the amount of time that you see the current spouse as your best choice. Posts from people struggling in marriages which began as affairs can be useful reminders to us BSs that people in affair marriages have a different understanding of commitment, an understanding that can lead to a spouse being told you just have to put up with my lover.

Cherished

Cherished...

I saw the movie, but since when is a fictionalized account of an affair marriage from the perspective of the affairees reliable as a source?

Longhorn,

Along the same lines, if the moderators (and you can refer to Justuss's post where in she/he/they specifically said he/she/they had no problem with ANY of the posters posting, including us in the compassionate majority <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) do not banish me, then will you join me in abiding that I have the same right to post any opinion about the situation I want as well???

There is one cautionary tale that I can perhaps imply that I think bears repeating and repeating on AM threads that show up on the infidelity section of MB and that is: Your very wrong choice to run off and marry your OP will follow you for the rest of your life. It will NEVER become OK. Neither time nor kids will make it right...IMO. I can only hope other hurting BS's and even WS's that show up here hoping to find encouragement for their poor decisions can get that lesson. Even 28 years later...people will still be judgmental of these AM's. Consequences are a bitcccch. Such consistent message might balance out the fact that others are lending support.

Are we agreed??

Mr. Wondering