Not bad I suppose. I was on night shift so I stayed up until the boys were awake and had a little time with them. I spent a couple of hours with them in the afternoon before they went to her parents with her, so she could see her Dad.

It wasn't a bad day yesterday even though we had an argument before I went to work on Saturday night. "I keep getting its been 3 months since I told you and my feelings haven't change if anything you have made my relationship with OM stronger".

It turns out he doesn't drive hence the reason she has to keep going over to see him in his town and he holds a season ticket. I can't see him giving that up. I said to her the other day about that and I was told I know nothing. I also asked how is it if he can only see his own son once every other week he can promise to look after mine full time. "F****** Muppet" and Space Cadet in One. Over my dead body is he having my kids.

Finger out then HAF. Finger out.

When you say you exposed and got OM moved from his job, did you expose to anyone in OMs personal life, such as a W or parents ?

Just came off the phone with my solicitor. If WW takes the children away I can put in a residence order for the children to be returned to their home. She can not divorce me or have legal separation unless I agree and the shares she put in her mothers name are still joint assets. Magic!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I exposed him to his Father and he said he would speak to him. It must have fell on deaf ears as she still goes to see him there. I spoke to Steve Harley about sending his father a letter as I now know his address, but he said his father will only defend his corner so its too much wasted energy.

Great stuff !

Steve Harley's yer man.

My wife has told me that if we don't agree something between us regarding the house and who stays in it she is going to court. I have said I want to keep the house and she can move but she won't have it. I'm now expecting a letter from her solicitor regarding separation or divorce on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour as I threatened to lock her out the house and have her bags backed again if she went to see OM again.

It looks like I will lose everything, but at least I have forced her to court and it will take a long time.

WW has just informed me that she took the kids to see OM on Saturday while I was in bed after working nights. She is now going to solicitors on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour because I shouted at her and swore in front of the kids last month. That was the time I came to pick the kids up and she had said she didn't know what she was going to do while I spoke to her on the phone. When I get there she is dressed to go out and see him. Then I am suppose to stay calm, because she told me she is seeing OM. That's suppose to make it ok.

I threatened to lock the door the next time she went to see him and hasn't seen him since, not while I have been home.
I have also put pressure on her to read stuff on this website and because I have constantly asked her to speak to Steve Harley.

Oh yes, I put a bar on the phone and took her off our joint bank account. The one she signed to come off.

The offer at the moment is sell the house and get 50/50 or go to court and be lucky if I get 30% as the courts will be in her favour.

Help Please!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

HAF,

My understanding of divorcing on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour is that there must be at least 5 behaviours that are considered unreasonable, that these must be behaviours i.e. not one offs or seldom occurrences & these must be logged (like in a diary). These behaviours are defined by the petitioner (WW) but must be agreed upon by the recipient (you). This is how I was going to divorce my WW when I was dead set on D soon after D-day (I couldn't prove adultery); the sort of behaviours I'd detailed were differing financial philosohpies, different ideas on how to raise our kids, separate social lives, etc. As you can see there is some slack (in fact there is loads) on what judges will consider as unreasonable. I'd gone for less contentious reasons so WW would agree. Divorce (or separation) is a lengthy process unless both parties are driving it.

I think that pressuring her to come here is an exercise in futility (& prolly what she's referring to when she says she's being bullied); she's a WW & NOTHING you say will get thru to her for more than a millisecond - it's what you do that gets noticed (slowly over many weeks).

I'm confused as to what your goal is now: is it simply you don't want to get shagged over in a D, or are you trying to rescue your M.

If you want to rescue your M keep plan A'ing, stop LBing, etc. If you carry on losing it & shouting & swearing at WW in front of the kids then it will become a behaviour. A wise man once said to me "read SAA & practice the MB principles" (I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist) - that wise man was you. Go back to it, re-read SAA. Go to my thread & look at Bob's words on loving detachment, it took me a lot of reads before I got it but it helps (& that's an understatement). You need to slow down WW on the D subject to give your plan A a fighting chance, deflect & distract her when she talks about such stuff. Under no circumstances get drunk when she's likely to be around, you'll lose your self control & react to the hurt.

What does Steve say ?? When your next session ??

You can do this.

b.p.m.

Does anyone passing by have bookmarks/links on some good plan A threads that can help HAF here ??

I'm off to bed now HAF, I'll pop by tomo.

b.p.m.

Cheers Bullet for your input.

I will start reading SAA again. I want to save my marriage and I have stopped asking her to read MB or any other stuff. Part of me thinks I should just cut my loses and start a fresh, part of me thinks she can screw me over even more and then be left with the guilt. At least the latter I get to stay in the house a bit longer while she pursues divorce or separation.

One minute she is saying she won't move or sell the house the next she is saying we sell the house and I get half. It appears to me she doesn't want to be held accountable for her actions. She says she hasn't got any plans to move OM in, but she must have some idea that they intend to live together at some point. As I've said a number of times here and to her if they are meant to be then go but don't think you are building your relationship on the back of mine. I can't stop her going as I can't stop her letting the kids see other man. Regardless of what I say and do she will see him. I have to wait for her to come out of the fog.

If I threaten her its another reason for her to log unreasonable behaviour.

At one point when we were talking and she was putting the I'm not giving up the home rubbish, I went ARGHHHHHH to let the steam out and at that she got up and said she wouldn't speak to me when I'm in that mood. I said you are ripping my heart out and you just expect me to sit calm and wave you on your way. F****** woman!


I'm thinking of speaking to Steve again soon for one final plan or idea. We have spent the last couple of times discussing love and who is responsible for love, no real plans yet.

Some plan A stuff for you - you'll prolly have seen them before but it's worthwhile reviewing them regularly (to me anyway)

Pep's carrot & stick:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Longhorn's plan:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3014240

& finally one from the Midlander himself:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Bullet,

I have been reading divorce busting 180 degree list and think I should stick with that. I won't be mentioning anything on MB and will HAVE to learn to keep cool in the situations with her. I will continue to do stuff around the house although she doesn't like it and will wait until I get my letter from her solicitor.

The other day she said she had no grounds for divorce now after spending a few nights at her parents she has, but according to her they haven't got involved.

I was reading on the web that the simple fact that someone can file on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour can be enough for the judge to say the marriage is broken down irretrievably.

In the meantime I will keep out of her way and just be polite and cheerful as well as taking care of my boys.

I find it difficult to follow Plan A when so much has gone on and I know she has no intention of ending the affair. All I can do is drag my heals on this one and hope she has a change of heart sooner rather than later.

HAF,

I am not a solicitor and I do not play one on TV, but I am a pretty smart little lady, and I've done some research on U.K. Divorce Law.

To summarize, divorce in the U.K. is based on "irretrievable breakdown" of the marriage, but the breakdown must proved by evidence of one of five things:
* Adultery
* Unreasonable Behavior
* Desertion
* Two years' separation with consent
* Five years' separation without consent

In other words, for three of the five reasons there is a considerable delay before the D is granted (at least two years!). In order to have an "instant" D, WW would have to prove either "Adultery" on your part...or "Unreasonable Behavior." Since SHE is the one in the adulterous relationship, she HAS TO prove that she is so miserable in the marriage that it has been irretrievably broken due to your unreasonable behavior.

Now, at first it might appear like it would be tough to prove with evidence that your behavior was "unreasonable." However, the courts take a rather relaxed attitude in defining "unreasonable." Thus, filing for "unreasonable behavior" just basically means that your WW is filing for an "instant" divorce, not that you particularly need to defend against the unreasonable behavior she lists. Furthermore, the unreasonable behavior that she lists does not necessarily affect the division of assets proceeding (ancillary relief) or custody proceeding (assuming it was not physical abuse or hitting the children). In addition, you have the option to state to the court that you will "not defend" the divorce proceeding on condition that no use is made of the lack of defense to allegations of unreasonable behavior in any other proceedings (division of assets and custody).

The term "unreasonable behavior" covers extreme types of behavior such as habitual drunkenness or violence but it is by no means necessary to allege anything near as serious in a divorce petition. In fact, because no-one likes receiving a petition based on their unreasonable behavior, it is very often sensible to keep the allegations to the bare minimum that will suffice to obtain the divorce even in circumstances where very much more could be added. A few paragraphs are normally sufficient and in a case where a marriage has in fact irretrievably broken down it is unusual not to be able to find some instances of unreasonable behavior which will suffice for the purposes of obtaining a divorce. It is important to understand that the courts are not too demanding about this - particularly where the parties are agreed on a divorce.

If the parties are not agreed on divorce the requirements of the courts are stricter because the allegations will be subject to scrutiny but in the overwhelming majority of cases the allegations are unchallenged because very few divorces are ever defended in fact. Generally speaking, in the U.K. if one party of the marriage wants to end the marriage, then usually the marriage is over. The question is: will it be over "instantly", in two years or in five years?

It is important to note that there is a TIME LIMIT to filing under either Adultery or Unreasonable Behavior. One must present a divorce petition within no more than six months from the last incident of unreasonable behavior or six months from discovering the adultery if the parties are continuing to live together. This time limit only applies if the two parties continue to live together. If one moves out, they can petition past six months but they should still file soon because they'll lose credibility.

HAF, I won't mince words. With your kids as young as they are, in most cases the custody of young kids is given to the mother and it's ordered that the house be put into her sole name (because the needs of the kids to have a roof over their heads and stay in their home outweighs the need of the father for financial equity--in the eyes of the court). In addition, often moms qualify for Legal Aid--paid for by a "lien" on the house--whereas the dad doesn't qualify and has to pay his own legal fees. Therefore, in my opinion, it is wisest right now to build your best and strongest case to KEEP your children and thereby keep your house...for them. Even if WW stayed home with the kids, list every single instance you can remember that YOU woke up the kids, got the kids ready for school, prepared their school lunch, drove them to school, drove them to the doctor, picked them up after school, fed them dinner, did homework with them, got them into the bathtub, put them to bed, etc. While WW has been running around after Lover-Boy, write down every moment that you have been caring for the children when she has not been around without them. Also list every time that she has dragged the kids around to facilitate her affair.

Frankly, HAF, it MIGHT (and I say this sincerely...MIGHT) be wisest to protect yourself and your kids by filing yourself on the grounds of Adultery and by naming YOU as Petitioner, WW as Respondent, and OM as Co-Respondent! That way OM has to be served in your D proceeding and it significantly slows things down because he will not want to be cooperative. Heh-heh.

When D is filed under grounds of Adultery, often the "innocent" party gets a much fairer division of assets and fairer custody arrangement. Since it is your WW who committed the Adultery, she may feel either guilty -OR- want to be free (like to remarry Lover-Boy) sooner rather than later, and often this will lead someone like her to agree to financial settlements that are more equitable to the Betrayed Spouse (aka YOU). Even though it's not a consolation for a broken marriage, the truth of the matter is that it may be sensible to jump on this opportunity before her attitude hardens. The chances are MUCH better that if you file on grounds of Adultery, naming her and OM as Respondents, that she will suddenly be much more willing to negotiate a more reasonable financial and custody settlement with you.

* * * * *

HAF, I know that your GOAL is to save your marriage, and I am not going to be the one to advise you to file for D on the grounds of Adultery. This is just info for you so that you can make a wise and informed decision in the best way to protect yourself. Just consider that if she does not file "unreasonable behavior" then she has to wait two years with your consent to divorce...and five years without your consent..and I suspect she wants to HURRY THIS THING UP so she can be with Lover-Boy! So...she has seen a solicitor and she knows what she's doing. You can tell by the terms that she's using that she has spoken to a solicitor and does know that she'd have to wait at least two years unless she files "unreasonable behavior"...and that behavior doesn't really have to be all that unreasonable...just a term for "instant divorce" in the U.K.

Sooooo...you have a little thinking to do!! In my personal opinion, I believe you need to secure yourself and your kids legally first. I believe you could agree to the two year legal separation and negotiate some sort of settlement, and the court will sign it. Thus, at least you wouldn't lose the house and the kids. Meanwhile you would work Plan A and see if her A dies during the two years.

Another option to protect yourself if you think she's going to go hard-core would be to file yourself on grounds of Adultery, present your legal evidence of the Affair, and THEN simultaneously be working Plan A for as long as possible. Delay--delay--delay

*sigh* But I'm not happy to give you these suggestions.



--CJ

Thanks CJ,

I think you have come across one of the websites I visited. There is a website called divorce aid and I emailed them some stuff. The reply was "sorry to hear about your situation, but your marriage is over", words to that effect. It takes 2 to marry and 1 to divorce.

If I push for divorce or separation for Adultery she will sign away in her state of mind. So I'm letting her do all the work. I have told her she can do what she wants but it won't fix anything and I will still be living here until I'm kicked out. I have told her I will fight for joint custody which she isn't happy with, but has no argument that I can't have.

Last night she admitted to seeing solicitor and asked me what the plan Steve Harley had. I said you need to speak to him. To which she replied you must know what the plan is so why do I need to speak to him. Because you don't believe me.
Is this her head coming out of the fog momentarily.

I said I wasn't going to talk about it and she is asking me questions, curiosity must be getting the better of her.

Anyway she now has an appointment booked a mediator that she wants me to attend, but I said I can't its too soon. With regards to the house I said she can move out and I stay, but I won't agree anything else. This is starting to annoy her.

CJ,

I have just realised that me documenting everything shows when I pick the kids up, take them to and from school, feed them etc etc. This makes for my argument to have joint custody far stronger than I realised.

Can't see the wood for the trees!

Made some smoothies for the kids today for the first time and asked WW if she could bring back a baking tray from her mothers so I could make chocolate brownies. I got "are you doing this to make me feel bad" No but if it makes her think that way its good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

HAF

Had a look at the divorce busting site but that lady's hair put me off <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to have a look at it, I'm aware of the 180 but don't know what it is. Glad to see you're still posting here, I was worried that I'd sent you off to there after suggesting you were a smog monster <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Stick to your guns about joint custody; it gives you the same rights as her, you may also qualify for working family tax credits & help with childcare (so long as you don't earn a bomb), half the child benefit, etc. Joint custody was my goal when I was dead set on a D; as I said in my first(ish) post to you, it's our pathway to not getting shat upon by WW.

Legal separations & divorces are essentially the same thing, but in the case of the former the courts' powers re financial orders is much less. Typically after 2 years a LS will transit into a D with the financial arrangements untouched, unless the financial sit has changed significantly (or one of you fibbed when discussing the original arrangements). You may want to research this some more.

Smoothies & brownies are good, this is top plan A stuff (because she's noticed); do you know her EN's, can you guess them ?? I'm guesiing that the family thing is quite high for her - somehting the OM can never, ever satisfy. I don't want to muddy your 180 plan but if you can slide in more of this stuff, no LB, meet some of of her ENs your chances are musch better. Pour yourself a bottle of dog, you deserve it.

One last thing: I don't know if this applies to you but there was recently a UK court ruling (last couple of weeks) where a W's (I don't know if she was common law or wed) claim to half of her H's house was kicked out because at the time they bought the house they weren't M'd & H stumped up the deposit & paid the mortgage. The split was made pro-rata as it were. Maybe worth looking into if it applies to your sit.

b.p.m.

bullet,

FYI--here's a link to The 180 Plan...a useful tool here on MB. The author of that thread is SPECTACULAR!! Listen to her!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



--CJ

Bullet,

If you can find me a link on the story you were referring to it would be appreciated. I have phoned the tax offices today and this is what I understand. There are 3 taxes you can claim for in the UK.

Child Benefit
Child Tax Credit
Working Tax Credit

Child benefit anyone can claim for who is the main carer.

Child Tax credit anyone can claim, who has children.

Working tax credit can only be claimed for if you work 30 hrs or more, or you work 16 hrs and claim Child tax credit.

So it appears I would claim Child Benefit and she would claim Child Tax Credit and Working Tax Credit. This would mean I get another £120 a month Nice! I also think this would prevent her from claiming child support from me.

Locked her out the house again this morning. I took the kids to school again today and will collect one at 3:10 and the other at 4:30 as he has cricket practice.

I spoke to one of our neighbours yesterday after she said how sorry she was to hear about our situation. It appears they have all been watching the movements from the house. Anyway WW often compares us the them as this women had an affair and is still with her new partner. They must have been together for 6 years or so. It turns out that she had been talking to her XH for years to try and change but he never did. Within 3 months of her telling him he meet someone else. It appears he never gave her the family support she wanted. She had known her new partner for about 10 years prior to building a relationship with him. Not anything like my situation. This women told me she was worried about WW and that she was pushing everything too quickly. She said she needs to be away from him for at least 3 months. She also said WW owes it to me to go to relate and at least try at our marriage. This is a completely different view from the one my WW would have me believe.

In May you stated you read SAA, have you read HNHN and Love must be tough? HNHN is by Harley and LMBT is by Dobson.

It may do you well to read those books so you can do a good plan B. That way you are not so dependent on the support from this board.

I am not trying to discourage you but if you want to have a good personal recovery and take your best shot at the M, you need MORE than this board.

Go finish you reading homework. Apply what you learn. Get an MC familar with MB principals. If you are in the UK, call out to Bob Pure. He may be able to lend a hand in finding a good MC out your way.

What this board can do is help you steady yourself but the effort to stand up belongs to you.

JMHO,
L.

Cheers Orchid,

I have read HNHN and SAA and I'm reading them again, but trying to study them in more detail. I will have to order LMBT and get my head round that.

I'm trying to keep from MC at the moment as they are costing me too much. I will see how the next week goes and then arrange another session with Steve Harley and I think that will have to be it for a while.