Didn't finish my thoughts....

And the reality of it is that although I have not verbally told my children, there is still the energy of it and the law of attraction.

My 19 year old daughter had a boyfriend for 2 years that cheated on her, they eloped a month ago and now she is pregnant and living back at home with him because he told her that he cannot live without OW.

I know her pain and I know that I have not been a good example on many levels. Even if she doesn't know the details of the infidelity in my life, on some level she knows....

Perhaps this is my time to show her how to recover from a situation like this.

Gee, Mel...I meant more 'cuz you're a woman and I'm a woman. It was tongue in cheek.

What I heard you say was that my DH wasn't sane to stay married to me. Hmmm. Okay. He had his reasons as much as OUC has hers. It's not one size fits all.

I wasn't saying your POV was unreasonable or wrong. It's yours. It's valid. Staying in an abusive marriage isn't a smart choice. However, when you do stay in them, there's a payoff for both parties. When you don't get to your own payoff...you take it with you.

How many times you want people to be married?

Figuring out our own stuff is what I believe is essential. That's what we take with us, if we leave. Not the other person.

If it's all about the other person...then what power does OUC have? What happened in her first marriage? Did ya ask?

Now I'm getting reactive...so I'll ask OUC.

OUC...you hate your WH's lies...understandable. And yes, you nailed it...when he lies to himself, and we saw that he does, then it's not possible to get the truth from him, is it? Not now.

Okay...been there...done that. So what I looked for was where I was lying...directly or by omission. You've lied to your family, your kids, by omission. How's that working for you? Do you want to live from truth, or only have WH live from it?

I think you are getting to your own patterns now. Looking to your own power and limits. This is one of them. Do not require of others that which you are unwilling to live up to in yourself.

I gave myself permission to lie to myself because my DH did, which was one of those payoffs I was going for. It's a false payoff...still can keep you in the pattern of pain and betrayal...had to find all the ways I betrayed myself.

Hope this helps. I'll know better than to entertain a funny image in regards to Mel again. I learn...slowly. And she has a great sense of humor, in my experience.

Live and learn.

LA

The sick thing about it is that I am trying to protect him. I don't want anyone to think ill of him since there are so many good things about him. I have to write this stuff so that I can hear myself say it because it is ludicrous. I'm protecting a man that does not protect me. How insane. My problem is that I am weaker than what is happening to me. Does that make sense? Drucilla and another good friend I met online here who's name escapes me at this time told me that my own insecurities take over when all this is occuring and then he becomes the hero to come in and rescue me from the pain that I'm feeling. It's a sick sick cycle. It took me many many years to leave my first husband....who by the way last night called to tell me that he still loves me...good grief...of course they love me, I was/am a good wife!!

So...when will I love myself enough to stop being tortured? It's all ridiculous and I've got to dig deep and find the courage to crawl out of this hole.

Answer me this one question though....am I overreacting based on the history of behavior? Is what he did something that would not be this tramautic without the history? It all comes back to me in one BIG RUSH of feeling now each time something happens so I have no ability to reason or look at it as a small act if indeed it really is. Does that make sense?

sorry, I missed your joke, LA!

I did not say that your DH was insane to stay married to you. I believe my exact words were: "A sane person would not and should not stay in an abusive marriage. " So, if you are saying that your marriage is "abusive" then I would agree that my statement would apply to your DH. In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it.

I would be surprised to hear you argue that it is somehow SANE to remain in an abusive marriage, but you are free to defend that position if you so desire. That should be interesting.

What onlyucan should do is accept that she cannot change her husband and remove herself from his abuse. Perhaps via PLAN B or even PLAN D. She would have to decide if she wanted to give him a chance to demonstrate some REAL CHANGE. But her first order of business should be to remove her from this abusive situation. She has been enduring this abuse for YEARS and needs to take steps to protect herself.

LA,
I like that train of thought you are on....It's the law of attraction. So, while I have been lying about it and hiding things from my family and friends, I have been calling forth the very behavior that he is doing as well. Thanks for the eye opener.

And other ways that I betray myself...I think the biggest one is the lie I tell myself that it's ok to stay in this marriage, that what he has done is not that bad because there's not been a PA, etc. etc. etc.

I betray myself by not loving myself enough to know I deserve better. I do have compassion and love for this man, but obviously not for myself.

I'm going to ponder that some more on my journey of healing me. Thanks again!

Mel,
Point well taken. Thanks for the reality check!!!

no, you are not overreacting. Even without a history of infiddelity, what he did and is doing is inappropriate.

If he saved her number under a different name, then there is more to it than a call from her to 'catch up'- he who has nothing to hide hides nothing,

Most of us on here would warn someone their spouse was most liekly in an A, even without a history of infidelity, if they were acting like your WS is acting.

You will love yourself when you STOP allowing yourself to be victimized. You are waiting for some "feeling" to magically alight upon you so you will have the courage to defend yourself. That is not how it works. FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS. COURAGE COMES FROM ACTIONS. Not the other way around. You must first take the action and then the feeling will follow.


This is not a small act. This is yet another adultery. Your H is trying to convince you this is just no big deal with his bullcrap. You are NOT overreacting, your instincts are telling you the truth. You have a very serious problem, onyucan, and it cannot be rationalized AWAY as you have done in the past. This will not go away, unfortunately.

p.s. onlyucan, my biggest problem with this recent incident are your H's lies about it. He really believed he could lie his way out of this and that is very disconcerting to me. I fear that since there have never been any consequences for his adultery and lying that his moral compass is quite broken and this has become a way of life for him. You have ENABLED this by a) keeping his secrets for him and b) never having any legitimate boundaries.

ML - Sorry I assumed you knew that my marriage was abusive for 15 years. Thought you knew that from my time here. I've only been married once...which sounds funny now that I type it...guess I mean, I've only had one husband...so being a serial cheater...well...

We're just humans in a human marriage. Insane humans? I don't think so...healthy? Definitely not! My marriage is no longer abusive. There's no infidelity, AO's, SD's or DJ's. Definitely no more lies. Even our P/A behaviors have stopped...all through long-term counseling, MB, books, and communication exercises. Pretty sane choices to make...took us to get to where we were blown apart to make those choices, though.

Which is why I love MB. Where people in abusive marriages can come and learn what healthy looks like...because it's like an alternate universe they didn't know existed. They read and understand about the tools, like boundaries, our power, limits, choices...what are ENs...and all the swirls, which can certainly feel insane, stop and reality can be seen as it is...like Plan A and Plan B; the four rules of marriage.

I guess what really gets me in your statement about what a sane person shouldn't do...is that what MB advises for a BS to do to save their marriage is to stay in abusive marriage (because it's right now, not forever), to do these plans, learn so much more, grow themselves and chart their own stars. Counterintuitive advice.

Brave. I think bravery is very sane.

And I winced at all the shoulds in your post...because real life doesn't have shoulds...that's fantasy to me. It has do and not do. OUC will do what she chooses...she's been choosing and will continue to do so. Seeing more choices than before is what I believe you're showing her. I'm for that! You're great at that...the posts you do say, "Hey, you are permitted, you have the power, you aren't crazy, this is reality" superbly. You know that. No shoulds in there.

I'm not alone, either. There are several posters here, or who have been here, like Jaye Mathisen...who lived in abusive marriages for years...decades. It took what it took...and yes, losing their marriages is usually what it took to wake up...and they weren't insane, anymore than I was or my DH was...they were human. Now they're thriving. Because THEY changed.

OUC--you're welcome for the eye-opener. Sure was for me. I use that all the time, btw...flip stuff over from what gets to me in others, tracing it in myself...my choices. My belief is that God showed us how to do this in his verse about not dwelling on the spec in another's eye, rather to see it as the log in our own. Helpful, nurturing...where we can grow from.

Getting caught up in dwelling in others' stuff, what we cannot control, really messes up our clarity of our own choices, our half. I only know this because I lived it.

And your WH may not choose to change for himself. He may not conceive of an abundant, thriving life, with real freedom, responsibility and love. It's there. Doesn't make it any less real. It's AWESOME. I know, because I'm living it.

So ask yourself...do you want to choose to change for yourself so you can experience that life? That payoff is higher than not wanting to have yet another divorce, put your kids through that...which is why you have really been paying penance for your choice of H, yet again. That's what I heard you say...your truth.

When we change our payoffs, we change our lives. Payoffs come from our beliefs...just like our feelings are signals about us from our beliefs.

Your H is as whole, complete, capable and marvelously made as you are. He chooses, just as you do. You didn't pick someone bad or wrong...like you said, the law of attraction (read Getting The Love You Want by Hendrix), which has your half and his half. I have no doubt in my mind you can grow from your life right now. I believe you are...you're here, aren't you?

And your WH came here and posted...WHOA. That's huge to me. My hope is he will keep reading and posting...that losing you, another marriage, another storm of pain and sorrow, of his own choosing, will be where he can begin to live a new life, from scratch...and I'd love it to be with you and those precious kids...all of them...an act of love for himself and for you.

And you, the same.

If reality were that we had to pick the perfect person to marry...then what would be our purpose in being a great partner? Wouldn't MB totally not exist? Doesn't mean if you do decide to divorce, that you're wrong, either. You're not doing evil...you're making choices. I see MB as the place where you get to see all your choices, not just one (reactively) or two.

LA

OUC,

Just had one of those tickles I wanted to share with you...

Eye-opener...O U C?

Heehee.

'K, might just be me.

LA

Have you ever heard of Plan B, LA? What MB advises people to do is to go into PLAN B, not to suffer FIVE YEARS of affairs with a serial cheater. I assure you that nowhere on this site do they recommend staying in an abusive marriage for years on end. There is nothing SANE about staying in an abusive marriage, in fact this is WHY Dr. Harley recommends Plan B. There is nothing "brave" about driving oneself to a nervous breakdown because she doesn't have the courage to remove herself from years of abuse.

Marriage Builders does not believe in saving a marriage "at all costs." Nor is Plan B the same thing as DIVORCE, even though that may eventually be the right answer. Sometimes the definition of success IS divorce. There is no virtue in staying in an abusive marriage just so you can say you weren't divorced.

Dr.Harley:


AND


LA, serial cheaters are not entitled to be married. That is solely the decision of onlyucan. There is no entitlement here. Many folks can and do move on. I would not accept a serial cheater myself, but others have in marriages where the sc demonstrated real change. I have no issue with that. People can and do change.

But what is important now, TODAY, is that she remove herself from this abusive situation and accept that she cannot change her husband. That doesn't mean he can't change himself. And perhaps, if he demonstrates some REAL CHANGE she will give him another chance. But until that happens, she has a obligation to remove herself and her children from this very dangerous man.

She should have been in Plan B YEARS AGO and I have concerns about her taking this abuse all this time. She has given him ample opportunity to change and it has not happened. Her first priority must be self protection, not accommodation of serial cheater who has no interest in changing. I think it is irresponsible of you to recommend that she stay in this situation simply because you think divorce is bad. Sometimes divorce is GOOD.

ML,

"Have you ever heard of Plan B, LA?"

What's your payoff in this obvious attack? It's snide, demeaning and defensive. I wasn't attacking you. I don't appreciate or accept your statement. I wonder what your payoff is in choosing to post this?

"But what is important now, TODAY, is that she remove herself from this abusive situation and accept that she cannot change her husband. That doesn't mean he can't change himself. And perhaps, if he demonstrates some REAL CHANGE she will give him another chance. But until that happens, she has a obligation to remove herself and her children from this very dangerous man."

I wholly support this advice. I think it's right on.

She knows she's not obligated to stay. She knows she's choosing it...and exploring why she's chosen it, long past Plan A's effectiveness.

What I don't understand is where you think I differ with you on your advice to her. I don't. I was addressing your statements pertaining to who you marry, not your half of the marriage. Equal power. It's equal even when you're giving it away based on your partner.

I wasn't attacking you or bashing you. I wasn't saying your advice was incorrect or wrong. Just that one statement. That she's insane now and has been for five years to stay in an abusive marriage. I don't think she is insane...I thoroughly believe she's human and sane.

I don't think she's trying to woo her WS, either. I see her as finally seeing boundaries...saying that anyone would see his act of infidelity as it was...and he came here to post it...and I don't think that's wooing her WS back at any cost. I think that's both of them stepping into reality, possibly, for the first time.

She feels like he's telling her she's insane to think that he did an act of infidelity. Guess that's part of my trigger to you stating so broadly, in the one size that fits all way, she's insane, I'm insane and my DH was insane to have stayed. We grew from it. We might not have. Plan B may have been what I went to if my DH had in anyway continued contact, like OUC's WH did. We still might be here because of Plan B.

Wasn't what I lived. I don't know. I don't understand where you see me advocating saving marriages at any cost, either.

I don't want to talk about OUC and her WH in the third person anymore. My apologies for doing that on your thread, guys. I won't address ML directly anymore, 'k?

Amends. Agreeing to disagree. I'm not out to convince you of anything ML. Just giving you feedback to how I perceived what you wrote. Like other posters do...which is connecting.

Disconnecting now.

LA

O-U-Can,

The above is your post. I read it twice. You are protecting the wrong person. The victims are you and your children and yes even your H but NOT the WS.

Expose to your children. Make them a part of your support group and you form a pack with them to be a part of theirs.

What gets me is the gall the WS had to post here. Then again, mine did the same. At the time he tought he was justified. As a WS he was outraged, that I would get support from total 'strangers'. While a WS he even met with another WS and told him how 'bad having an A was'. Imagine that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Hm..... well I used that to my advantage and turned it around. U can 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's an idea:

1. Expose to your children. Either separately or together. Reassure them of your love and let them know that even with the prior events and challenges, you as a family will survive this but you all need each others help. Get IC for them as needed. Let them know they can come and share their deepest feelings anytime. Let them know they can also let their dad know (if not in person, then in a letter or picture). Ask them to respect your decisions and that you will try to keep them in the loop as much as possible.

2. Let the WS know some MBers have taken interest in his post, if he wants to talk to some former WS' who are now recovered, he can. I can even volunteer my H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3. Let the WS know you post here for support since he isn't giving you and your family the kind of love, support and protection you all need.

4. Then sit back and watch his actions. You really need to give him back his guilt.

take care,
L.

Thank you, Orchid.

You hit what I missed in my own darn reactivity. Got side-tracked.

One of the things we tell posters when they say they've done Plan A already...that this is ongoing behavior...is to review if you've really done Plan A.

Exposure is part of Plan A. A critical part of it. Which can explain why things don't change...if you're in doormat mode rather than authentic, then you aren't changing...you're manipulating.

Good to review...because Plan B is dependent on a great Plan A.

Thank goodness for all these great posters, OUC. Sure widens your choices, and your WH's choices, doesn't it?

LA

LA, as usual I don't have the slightest idea what you just said because you speak in such circles, so I can't really respond to most of it.

Instead, I will simply repeat what I said before, that it is INSANE to stay in an abusive marriage and that it does lead to nervous breakdowns and years of PTSD, just as Dr. Harley alluded, whether it be one affair or numerous. Sorry you are bothered by that word, but that is your own issue to deal with. Onward and upwards....

O-U-C,

How are you doing?

L.

bump

LA

the AA version of insanity

keep doing the same thing and expecting different results

Amen...