Katie_Mae,

No, I don't have time for counseling. A lot is going on with my kids right now. And I don't plan to tell him anything else until we are face to face. Thanks. How did you get your husband to really face the truth and not just ban it as a topic of discussion?

JL, Maybe one of the ways I can address that fear is to tell him my first OM was a long-time serial cheater who gave me lots of tips on how not to get caught, so he shouldn't feel bad that he didn't catch me. (This is all true, btw).

His strengths: He is brilliant. Not just smart in an ordinary way. He left college to join the military but everyone who talks to him assumes he has a masters degree until told otherwise. So he's one of those rare individuals who really is self-taught, which also requires self-discipline as well as smarts.

Another strength is related to his political activism, but I can't seem to find the right word. He's not one of those people content to live life confined in his own little universe. He looks at what's going on in the world and wants to do more than just complain about it. Best of all, his causes line right up with mine.

He's my refuge from the rest of the world. I tried to explain this in the other thread but didn't do so in a way you could get, I suppose. When I feel like everyone else is crazy, he's the sane one I can talk to. That's what I meant when I was trying to explain that we share common values and a common worldview.

He occasionally does little things for me without being asked that I appreciate. It may not sound like a big deal, but it is to me.

There may be others not on the tip of my tongue at the moment.

APH:

I asked you to write the letter, with all the details.

You do not have to email it to him. You can write so that you know what to discuss in a logical order when its time to discuss. And it allows you to fill in details as they occur to you. Remember, you were there, and there are details that you will not remember, but that your H may find incredibly important for you to remember. By having a letter, spread over many pages, you can flesh out the details. And those details needed can only be explained by your H.

Your H may want to know everything, he might only want an over view.

Please read "Joseph's letter" around here, to understand some of the feelings he might have.

You can create three versions of the letter, with a broad brush in the first, more details in the second, and everything you can remember in number 3.

Put them in thier own envelopes, and when it is time, you can give him #1, and then #2, and then #3 as he sees fit.

And, by doing it this way, you are getting to a clean slate and honesty with him...

By writing down so much, and in great detail, you are telling your H, "I want you to know everything, even if you do not want to know everything, there are the details of anything you might want to know. I am prepared to provide you with all the info..."

Very powerful, that.

I will explain that my honesty and transparency on Dday and thereafter went a looonngg way in allowing my BS to trust me again.

LG

lousygolfer, okay, all good ideas. Thanks.

But I can not find Joseph's letter. I did a search on "Joseph" both as a username and as a keyword and yours was the only post that showed up.

Hi Aph,

Here is Joseph's Letter.

Ace

Ace:

YOU Are quite the expert now aren't you!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LG

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, LG,

Your post was most timely. On another thread, you recently said:



I was toying with these thoughts that you (and others) might have thought I was insincere when I read this tonight on that other thread.

But I shook it off....come over to help my friend Aph.....and you blew the rest of those remaining thoughts off the boards by your kind compliment.

It means alot to me, LG, especially coming from you. I even mentioned my insecurities and need to be acknowledged and validated on my Trials & Smiles thread this morning.

Sorry for the minor TJ, Aph. Please LISTEN to LG. He is the expert FWS of Betrayedville who will guide you step by step.

Ace

P.S. Saturn and MAZ taught me how to link....so I gotta share the credit.

Ace:

No Problem!

Thanks for the kind words...

I should also point APH to Pepperbands thread "Notable Posts". Pep has posted the links to a number of threads that can be very useful.

APH:

Things are going to get Butt Ugly for you in the next six weeks.

Notwithstanding what happens when your H returns.

Get to work on the letter.

The first thing you learn around here, is that there is a plan. Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan FU, and then finally Plan APH.

That is the plan you develop to restore your H's faith in you and improve the communications and environment of your M.

You start by breaking the cycle that you are in with seeking companionship with other men. Not just between now and July. And until you H leaves again, but by completly changing the focus.

I read between the lines of your post and understand that your H is a political worker. I could be wrong. No matter.

But one of the things you are going to have to work on is his work schedule. He can not leave for 10 months at a time. You and he need to use the POJA to compromise this. He comes home weekends, or other scheduled days. If he is in the military, for example, he doesn't have much choice.

LG

Hey Aph,

How's it going? Did you see/read Joseph's Letter?

Ace

Ace, Yes I did. I get it. Thanks for posting it.

lousygolfer, I wrote the long version of the letter already. It's about 9 pages, but that includes a page on how I got to where I am now and being directed to this site (thanks to Larry).

I still have the short and medium length ones to go.

Except for a short stint of working for someone running for office, my husband is actually in IT and this separation was not the usual thing. We got into severe financial problems and he had to take a job anywhere he could find one, and I needed to stay in town to finish my Masters degree (not quite finished, but I just have my thesis left and don't need to be in town for that.) So this is a contract position and it's up in July. I agree that we should not be separated anymore. I don't deal with separations too well. So the next job he gets, the kids and I are moving to wherever he's going.

I don't understand what you mean by the next six weeks being hard, though. And what exactly do I need to plan?

You also wrote:


Well I quit my online flirting, well unless maybe I count this one guy (NOT an OM, though), but he is safely away in the UK.

As for changing the focus, well I know I need to focus on my husband more. But he really needs to change his habits as well. He always has something on the computer (now it's a game) that he is obsessed with and spends all his free time on. When we first married it was an IRC channel that we BOTH used, often at the same time so it worked out for us just fine. But his current obsession is a game I really don't care for at all. I don't really understand the appeal for anyone over 10, but that's a guy for ya. Kinda hard to pay more attention to someone who doesn't seem to want your attention.

Aphrodite,

See here is the problem and what we are all worried about. Your H has been gone for how long? A year and you have had how many affairs? You say you love him. You want to remain married to him. I'll accept all of that. However, (you knew that was coming didn't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) then you say the following.


He is NOT safely away. He is in your mind, he can become an EA and he bring your marriage to an end. There are NO SAFE OM's in your life and there cannot be. You really need to understand this.

Next you say
See those "but's" I bolded? They negate everything good you have said about your H or your intentions. His playing games did not lead to your affairs he was gone working to support you and the family and I presume your education as well. Has it crossed your mind that perhaps YOU have something to do with why he plays those games? Has it crossed your mind, that if you try and blame your affairs on him or start off telling him what HE has to change while still talking to men on line that you are likely to lose your marriage?

We are trying to help you here. You need to get that these affairs are NOT small stuff that he will get over like stubbing his toe. You need a plan on how YOU are going to change your perspective on things. How you are going to address him. How you are going to work on rebuilding this marriage. What he does or does not do, is beyond your control, what you do is definitely within your control.

You see comments like those made on this last post were what prompted me to ask you if you loved your H and why. If they are causing me ( a complete stranger) to question your commitment, imagine how they are going to hit your H when he gets home. We are your sounding board Aph.

Writing out what has happened is a great thing, but IF you really want this marriage, you are going to have to convince him he is better off with you than without you and it might no be as easy a sell as you think. You might respond, "well JL I don't have to take him back either." Which is true, however, if you really feel that way you should have divorced him before you betrayed him.

Please, please think about all of this very carefully LG and others are trying to walk you through the mine field so that you and your marriage will survive. Please listen to them, even if what I am saying doesn't seem to be making sense to you.

God Bless,

JL

Aph:

Glad you wrote the long letter. It should be easy to cut and slice to get to one page and three pages.

Just Learning posted some good stuff, but I wanted to point out some things...



Next six weeks until your H returns. Can you keep yourself to yourself for that time?

Like the conversations with that guy in England?

Please note: You can have male friends. However, your boundaries are way too low.

Computer time? Your H escaping from the family?

Read some of the posts/Threads from DIG. She contemplated an A, and her H was withdrawn, although he was in the house every night.

She has realized how her own behaviors were driving her H away, and has made significant changes...

Hang around. Your getting it!

LG

Aph,

I am evidence that a marriage can be destroyed by the stroke of a key, punch of a phone number, stamp to an envelope.

H confessed that he began corresponding with another OW he met in an online game room 6 years prior to his EA. But because they did not 'connect' on their first phone call, he stopped all contact and did not think he needed to tell me. (I've never mentioned it on MB b/c it did not seem relevant until now.)

When he met this recent OW, he thought he could handle it like last time. But they instantly 'thought they were soulmates' and within a few days were having fone fornication sessions, and discussing leaving their M's, destroying a combined 50 years of their relationships.

My H never saw that OW in person....only her photos. When the fog enshrouded him, he thought she was beautiful. She met his needs when I gave up. They planned for weeks how they would get rid of their spouses and possibly move to some island and live off love (and her inheritance my H mistakenly thought she had....she probably lied.)

He was unemployed at the time, too, Aph. Something about the male psyche is disjointed, I think, when hi$ ability to provide is in limbo. He was looking for significance because all he seemed to receive from me was judgement and condemnation.

He justified and rationalized it all due to the fog of his alien fantasy. After the 4th D-day when he was jolted by my decision to start over without him, he suddenly realized what he would lose. He chose to change. I'm including my sig line as a reminder of how difficult it was for both of us.

For 6 months he has followed through. But, as you saw on my Trials thread, he lied to me again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This man is highly committed to our M but he slipped.

LG and JL are checking your commitment to your M. They have a much better perspective than me but I am in agreement that their 'red flags' are very real.

Aph, I believe you want to stay married to your H. But you appear to still be toying with the fantasy 'in case it doesn't work out.' That will trip you up, even IF your H wants to work on your M, too.

As far as the 6 weeks before he gets home......in addition to what LG mentioned, it seems you also need to realize what changes YOU might need to make to commit to him unconditionally. JL mentioned this, too.

My H has done that for me....if he hadn't, I could not do this. And he only had 1 EA for 6 months.

Aph, I realize we are all different, but please don't discount any advice offered even if it initially does not seem to apply to you. Obviously you are wanting your M or you would have left long before now. Please re-read things said through these lenses: that these 'perfect strangers' may be right and it's worth it to take another look at what's being said.

We share because we care.

Ace

P.S. I see you're in the SE...I hope not in the path of Hurricane Barry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Also, please let me know when the book arrives.

JL,

I know there are no safe OMs. He's not an OM and I don't have any private conversations with him.


Not all this year! This was over a 5 or 6 year span of time.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say about the computer games. My cheating had nothing to do with the games and I know that. My point is there is a very good possibility that my efforts to pay more attention to him will be met with some resistance because he's so obsessed with this game. I'm thinking of the future, not the past. And I don't think it has anything to do with me because he's always been like this with one thing or another. It's just that in the beginning it happily coincided with something I liked to do as well.

I'm simply being realistic. In His Needs, Her Needs the Harleys say that having separate recreational hobbies makes couples grow apart. And I can't spend more time with him if he has no time to spend. And there's no way I'd be able to enjoy his game, so we're going to have to find something we can do together, which means he will have less time for this other game he likes. Just because I decide to pay more attention to him doesn't mean he'll appreciate the extra attention.


I already know that. Average recovery looks like about two years or more from what I see on this board.


Oh no! That would not go over well with him at all. I tried that after one of his divorce threats and he got angry, saying I shouldn't presume to know what is best for him. Convincing him that we can work it out would be a better tack.

lousygolfer,

Six weeks is not that long, and I might be able to visit him in a week anyway.

About the guy in the UK, okay I'll keep our infreqent conversations on topics relevant to the forum.

I don't think my husband is using computer time to escape anything because he's still been playing the game while living away from me. Also, when we first got married he spent just as much time on the computer. The difference was, we were chatting on the same IRC channel so we were on the computer "together" so to speak.

Ace,

We're inland so when we do get hit by hurricanes, it's not very hard. I'll let you know when I get the book.

I actually don't believe in soul mates, but I get your point that emotional affairs can develop online. See what I wrote to lousygolfer above.


Well I have changed some of my habits already as far as who I talk to, etc. He won't fill out the EN survey yet but I'm guessing that admiration is higher on his list than I thought, so I've made a point of meeting that need in our phone and email conversations. And I'm reading all the books I can (just ordered a bunch from Abebooks.com).

Other than that, do you have any specific examples? Your statement seems vague to me.

Oh, and about male friends...

The qualities I like in a friend are not much different from the qualities I like in a lover (and vice-versa). So are setting boundaries about simply never being alone with a male friend, never talking about inappropriate subjects, etc. or is there some sort of trick to avoid getting a crush on a male friend in the first place?

Hey Aph,

Yes, there is a trick. Stop having male friends, and never make small talk with men again. Get your "guy fix" from your H, and then have a couple of close girlfriends. Examine why you get crushes on male friends, and fix what's lacking inside of you and change it it. If you really want to change your old patterns, this is the only way to do it. I speak from experience...

KM

Katie_Mae,

very good insights.

Aph, I used to flirt with my H's teammates and H never minded....laughed along with us. But I don't speak to them anymore except to politely answer questions directed at me.

It's a difficult 'trick' but I agree that it is the only sure-fire way to fix the habit and protect your M.

Ace

OOOops forgot to mention specific things you can do to change.

I'll just tell you what my H changed, some with and some without my suggesting it:

He knows I get irritated at his procrastination so he started doing things as soon as possible and then telling me about it. (He used to forget and forget and then get upset when I started nagging.)

He knows I like to plan things in advance when his MO is to fly by the seat of his pants. Now he asks things in advance (getting maps to places instead of usually being lost and late) because it suits my comfort level even though it's overkill for him.

He knows I like him to change his clothes before he works in the garden or yard or on the boat. One of our earliest knock-down-drag-out fights was when he was working in the garden in the brand new white cuffed baggies (70's) I had made him from fabric b/c we were too poor to buy clothes. Now he changes immediately but if I have to remind him he has a good attitude.

He tells me he wants me to see his computer history on his work computer to prove he has not started another email account. He wants me to ask to see the work phone records to show incoming calls and outgoing calls that are not to that OW's area code region. He is transparent to the point of excessive at times....but I love it.

These kinds of things build up his account in my Love Bank, which helps to rebuild my trust in him.

So when he slips and lies, no matter how big or small, it gives us a better foundation from which to fix things.

Does that help? Your sitch will be different, of course, but you must find out what your H likes first. That will take time in itself.

Check out "Saturn and Messdup's Stuck in a Rut" thread in the Recovery forum for more ideas JL just posted.

Ace

Women friends are so terrible about keeping in touch with each other, though.

Ace, I could give him all my passwords, after I tell him why, of course. Other than that, I don't know what else to do because he won't fill out his EN survey until he has a new job.

I don't know. I've been getting pretty discouraged the past two days or so. He's had one foot out the door for so long and everytime he has to look for a new job he wants nothing to do with me. When we first got married HE was my best friend but he had a good job then. Everytime he has to change jobs I become the enemy, yet he wants another child -which would greatly interfere with me getting a job. His happiness seems to depend more on his career than anything I do or don't do.

Aph,

It's beyond me what to tell you beyond what I've already shared. Wiser minds must weigh in here...where are you, MB veterans?



Once you confess, if he chooses to stay, it seems that he might change his focus and be willing to contribute to your M using MB principles.



I can relate to a guy needing significance from being the provider. For the past 18 years, I have made more than my H, especially since his habit of concealing truths contributed to his losing 3 jobs and ensuing financial devastation from our many moves. While I can identify, I have no solutions to offer you....yet. All I have are my experiences. I will learn right along with you, Aph.

What did we do? My H had an EA and 4 D-Days later I gave up. H changed, suggested MC, we found and began implementing MB principles, and God is now working a miracle in our marriage. I realize it doesn't work that way for everyone but I am grateful every day.

Keep asking, Alph....there are answers out there to be posted.

Ace

Ace, everybody..it's okay. I think I just had a touch of the late afternoon blues during my last post. It is frustrating when I feel like I should be doing something and there's nothing to do right now. So I'll just read for a while, I guess.

Anyway, Ace, I got the book you sent. Thanks.