oooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh



pass the popcorn to Pep please

I applaud this statement, hopeandpray!

Isn't it curious that one side of this argument complains the very mention of the phrase "Affair Marriage," is harmful to some betrayed spouses...and they keep right on posting to threads that keep the subject alive. They are, if their ideas are correct, making CERTAIN some are harmed. How's that for being caring? Whew!

Those on that side of the question are absolutely certain a betrayed spouse in an "Affair Marriage" cannot use Dr. Harley’s principles to recover that marriage. That’s an opinion that might or might not be true.

What those people don’t want you to know, folks, is that they could prove that theory by simply being quiet and let the train wreck just play itself out. They say it's inevitable, right? If they’re right, they don’t need to say or do a thing. They don’t need to make a single, solitary post.

Incredible, isn’t it? What could be simpler? If they are correct, all they have to do is hush...and both such marriages currently known to be on MB will fail. But...is that what people on the other side of this question are doing?

Hah! Not hardly.

In fact, they’re posting to Zog’s thread with thinly veiled “advice” contrary to Dr. Harley’s principles hoping Zog will become despondent, leave MB without getting any help and lose his marriage. They miss the point that if they continue to do this, and Zog’s or Jilly’s marriages fail, they will have failed because they didn’t get the help that would have saved them. If that happens, the folks on the other side of this issue will NOT have validated their theory at all. They will only have made sure another marriage fails.

Actually, those folks aren’t interested in letting Dr. Harley’s program work or fail of it’s own accord. Whether Dr. Harley’s principles have any validity in an “Affair Marriage” isn’t any of their concern. What is becoming increasingly clear is that the overriding consideration on their side is their preconceived notion of how things should be on this board. If they were convinced Dr. Harley’s ideas wouldn’t work in Zog’s or Jilly’s case, they would sit back and (when the marriages failed) these folks would feel fully entitled to say, “See? I told you so. Na na na na na naaaaa…

In fact, those people are scared to death Dr. Harley’s principles WILL work for Zog and Jilly both. They can’t stand the thought of that happening, so they’re doing everything they can to make sure the program doesn’t have any effect by obstructing the process; demeaning the married partners who have come here for help; and attempting to drive off those who would otherwise help with insulting insinuations, mockery, and bombastic rhetoric.

That’s the way some folks are. Personally, I think you must examine these folks very, very closely. You see, to them, Zog, Jilly, and their spouses aren’t real people. To those who want Zog and Jilly shunted off to the side, Zog, Jilly, and their families are no more important than paper dolls. They’re just puppets about whom this is just an abstract discussion. The folks who feel this way don’t give a da*n about the human beings whose lives will be affected if those marriages fail. They don’t care if the lives of any number of people in Zog’s and Jilly’s families are SHATTERED. If these folks can bust up those marriages, those folks will feel vindicated in their jihad. The witches will have been turned out.

Well…some folks will protest…Zog, Jilly and their affair partners caused pain and suffering in other families as well as their own, albeit years and decades ago. See, they say, this is just Zog and Jilly getting what they deserve.

What? Since when is there any virtue in heaping MORE pain on top of what has already endured? I’d like to see that in the Bible. Show me where God demands an adulterer suffer after a divorce has happened. What you'll find is God forgives those who have strayed.

I’d like to see the idea of making additional suffering in cases like these promoted in ANY theological book. I’d like to see where it is recommended in any ethics textbook. You know what? The feeling that more suffering is okay is motivated by a sordid need for some kind of revenge, and it’s just not right.

I have to wonder if the people who don’t want Zog or Jilly here really care about people at all. Oh, I know…they say they’re only doing this to protect you, the betrayed spouse. You are too vulnerable, they say. You might be dispirited if you even know there is a chance an “Affair Marriage” can succeed. That’s called a patronizing attitude, by the way. What they’re actually saying is you newly betrayed ones just aren’t quite good enough. You’re not quite as equal as the rest of the animals in the barnyard.

You know what. If I were you, I’d be concerned if these folks who feel so righteous about the way they discriminate against Zog and Jilly. You better worry you will be next to be discriminated against. If they’ll do it to Zog today, they might find you to be unworthy of respect and support tomorrow. I hope not, but I think you should still worry. When only a few people take it upon themselves to dictate who can be in a certain forum, who can post without interference and who cannot, we all need to be concerned.

Some of them over there want Zog and Jilly banished to the EN Forum. However, even they admit the amount of advice and support over there is inferior to that on GQII. Someone used race in another thread as a metaphor to illustrate what’s going on with the suggestion to banish these two folks to EN. The individual who suggested that was subjected to immediate scorn and ridicule but that person had a point. The concept of separate, but equal, schools for black and white folk in this country was debated fifty years ago. It was determined there was no validity to the argument morally, practically, or legally. To complete the allegory, there is no legitimacy whatsoever to the idea Zog and Jilly can get “equal” treatment in EN. It just can’t happen.

Personally, instead of disparaging newly betrayed spouses, I think those who come here demonstrate they’re tougher than the average simply by coming here in the first place. They show toughness when they begin Plan A, and often graduate into Plan B.

This program is not for the faint of heart. Dr. Harley’s principles will completely fail if they aren’t enforced in the face of conflict, hostility from the WS, and trepidation about doing things that force the WS to face the consequences of their adultery.

A person on another thread insinuated the other night that I was actively engaged in an “Affair Marriage” and that’s why I was willing to assist Zog. He was gaslighting me, trying to convince me that I was dirt; that I wasn’t speaking from the highest of motives and, in fact, I had a vested interest in “supporting” Zog because I was of no better quality of dirt than him. The truth is, I’m divorced and have been for 33 ½ years. I am, in fact, a victim of an “Affair Marriage”. My ex cheated on me 34 years ago and I had to have months of professional counseling just to put me back together well enough to function in society.

My ex married her partner in adultery one week after our divorce was final! One little week…seven days. My ex had to get a special provision inserted into the divorce decree to get an exception to the state law prohibiting such a thing. Can you imagine???

Frankly, if there is anyone here who has a perfect right to be depressed by just noticing the fact “Affair Marriages” sometimes DO succeed, it is ME…but I refuse to give in and let the horror rule my life.

I believe you other newly betrayed ones are at least as resistant as I am. You’re probably better than I because you’ve had the guts to get this far. You’re not second-class citizens. You’re the best.

And that’s where I stand.

Pep..you little trouble maker. I saw it; but, had nothing constructive to add. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fortunately, OM was single. So I guess the BW's gave her a break and helped our marriage. Their choice. I'm POSITIVE that if she had been asked to leave or go to some other board and then seen she caused this kind of uproar she would have removed herself regardless of any RIGHT to post where she dang well pleases. She was foggy; but, not that foggy.

Things could REALLY get interesting if and when Mrs. Zog or a similiarly situated once again WS in a adulterous marriage ever comes here posting. Doh!!!! I don't think they make 2x4's long enough to handle that scenario.

Until then, Mrs. W and I are forever grateful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering

Cool! So we are celebrating tolerance! How so can we do that? Lets see...

I for one am grateful I don't live in a society that elevates M to the point that I am FORCED to stay married to an abusive or cheating spouse.

I for one am grateful that I am not in a society that elevates purity to the level that I must cover my face, less someone thinks impure thoughts about me.

I for one am grateful that I am not my DH's, or his family's chattel, to be forced to stay unmarried even after his death or abandonment.

I for one am grateful that I have the free will, to chose to stay in my M, and value M all the more because it was a choice.

I for one am grateful that I wasn't forced to M my first SF partner!!! (ever so grateful for that one!)

I am happy that tolerance means I can do all kinds of fun things to and for my DH during SF, without shame.

I'm very happy about the advent of B/C. My life, and my M, would possibly not survive another bout of being pg.

I'm grateful we live in a society that realizes children should not be married off, and do not require their parents' consent once of age, but are allowed to make their own choices, even if they aren't always good choices.

I'm also grateful that remarriage is a choice in our society for those who are D'ed.

I'm eternally grateful I'm not responsible for anyone's choices but mine, and for those I take great care.

I'm glad my DH does not always agree with me, nor I with him. (Convenient though it would be, very boring indeed).

I'm grateful the stigma of having one's parents or siblings D'ed does not bear on my character.

I'm so glad public (and private) stonings of offenders is against the law.

I'm at peace with my ability to make decisions (even if I still am working on making them), and I do my best to tolerate those who are still struggling with that which is not under their control.

Which intolerances do you think should survive in a majority rule society? When there are an equal number of BS's and WS's? Who gets to decide? Or is it possible the tolerance accepted by today's society is the result of centuries of struggling for an equitable solution to the intolerances of past?

The "offense" is major, and may cause some recovering MB'ers to leave. I think that is important.

To me, how this is different ... both spouses have a demonstrated lack of boundaries for the sanctity of marriage. If you marry a person who has committed adultery ~with you~ there is an acceptance of ADULTERY as a viable choice in life. So, when adultery is again the choice ... on what grounds does one complain?

Adultery was not unacceptable when entering the marriage...

this is VERY different for most people here

I hope this helps

If A's are a way of life, why marry? Why go through the nonsense of exchanging empty vows and forcing friends and family to acknowledge the new person in one's life, if this is all transient? Why mingle the 401k's and pension plans and car payments? Why not just pay a retainer on a good lawyer and keep all the assets separate?

Why even D the first spouse? If this state of A does not erode one's sense of self, this shouldn't matter, right? Unless of course the BS is the one to file...(and I don't think we commonly call that person a quitter: if the stigma of who decides to file doesn't portray the BS, certainly it paints no greater a picture of the WS)

If the sanctity of M is obselete, why not just live together? Or not date exclusively?

Is it possible that when you haven't the tools to pull your current M together, you haven't the sense to realize your problems will follow you into the next? And fixing these personal and relationship issues are less about who you're with and more about when you are with whom? When that light of understanding hits that you can no longer run from your problems...

I agree with you. It appears that there will be no way to end this without a loss. As you have pointed out, sin's ramifications of pain often continue long after repentence and forgiveness have been accomplished.

I also think that an attitude of mocking, denigrating and childishly insulting BSs who do have the capability and/or choose to help is adding to that loss and disruption.


I don't disagree with you that the foundation was cracked and that both people are dragging in a lot of broken baggage that's bound to leak out. And we're seeing some of that today.

What grounds? On the grounds that people can and do change. Maybe he hadn't changed his thoughts on the acceptability of what he did years ago, maybe he did when it became his ox that was being gored.

But to use a person's past sin as justification for one's current sin is easily recognized as nonsequitor. ZOG was wrong for his adultery 28 years ago and his wife is wrong for her adultery today.

ZOG chose adultery in the same way that a number of participants here have chosen adultery. Most of the wayward participant here learned the error of their ways and changed *before* going all the way to marrying their affair partner. It looks like ZOG made the same evil choice and didn't repent and change as quickly as did the other waywards.


I'm sure they lied to themselves as do many waywards during their affair - "we're different, what we have is special, it was fate, we're soulmates." Time has a way of burning up that crap. While we may have to suffer the results of past sins, that doesn't mean that we can't learn to recognize that it was sin and indeed turn away from it.

The ethics I have today are much stronger than the ones I had when I first got married. I would hope that to be true for others.

[color:"red"] the "baggage" is hefty indeed [/color]

[color:"blue"] the genders could be switched [/color]

[color:"brown"]He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right? [/color]

brown = TURDVILLE color

people in pain can act out, true

But that still doesn't excuse the behavior. And this makes me question how 'recovered' some of those posters are. Yes, dealing with this can leave some definite scars...I've got my share of them too. But if the long time posters on this forum can't post without venting that pain, how much pain are they still holding on to? Holding onto that pain is a great indicator that recovery is still far from complete...

I am not here to excuse the behavior of others... I do not wear that size.

Are you aware of Aphelions's history?

If the rule of thumb is ... double the length of the affair to roughly determine when you can expect near complete recovery .... his time line is around 24 years !

I'd say that rule of thumb would apply to TYPICAL affairs. A 12 year long affair would be a major exception...not the rule. Nor do I believe that the 'twice as long' would apply in that case. I totally agree it takes time to recover, don't take me wrong.

But I'd also say that if it takes ANYONE 24 years to recover from the affair, then there's not true ACTIVE recovery efforts being taken.

You and I both know that recovery takes WORK on both sides to accomplish. No one could maintain TRUE recovery efforts for 24 years...I don't see that happening.

The lion's share of recovery is typically completed in the first two to three years...subsequently, the pain should massively subside correspondingly. If its not, this should be a major indication that true recovery isn't taking place. If you're still hurting badly enough to take it out on someone who's not directly tied to the source of your pain years later, you're not recovered from the original wound.

"true recovery" is certainly something that is in the eye of the beholder

don'cha agree wid me OWL?

please, mention my tag line or I will be pissed

*snicker*

LOL...its a good one for sure...you've always got ones that make ya stop and think!

As far as recovery being "in the eyes of the beholder"...I dunno. It seems to me that recovery should pretty much be the same basic thing for everyone, but perhaps I'm mistaken...what do YOU define as recovery?

Pep:

Your tag line response:

I was driving to Florida and didn't want to stop????

I didn't think my hips were big enough...

I always wanted a booty like J-Lo.

I can wear these without my Dockers Shorts...

That zipper thing could really bite sometimes...



And for reality:

We now have 4, count them four, threads on AM's

What are we promoting?

LG

vigorous debate

I can't argue with that!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

well

when Harley discusses the degree of difficulty resolving RESENTMENTS born of adultery ... he says it depends on how horrible the offenses were

for instance

marriages that overcome adultery + OC + STD + financial ruin + abandonment + + +