Serious question, actually.

Thats the only question. At what point does an a-marriage become legitimate according to supporters ?

Seems to me there are as many answers to that question as there are folks who will advise a-marriges.

Yeah Appy, I ponder that too.

If I went out and dated/married a MM then experienced the inevitable Affarriage problems, I'm certain to get MBs support, no?

I know I'd be remorseful because I'd be so desperate and hurt from being betrayed by my betrayer betrayer husband.

ETA: 2L's correction <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Affairage

Read this thread. This is the destruction of AM's. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...vc=#Post3249188

I think part of confusion arises in the many definitions of "support" in this context. From b0b's thread, there seems to be no consensus on what constitutes an "affair marriage"....and it appears there may not be a consensus on what constitutes "support" either. Diversity has huge advantages, but it's a double edged sword.

Star

That is certainly a problem.

I reckon there is a subset of a-marriages that pretty much everyone would agree with, and a far more contentious group :

( points just for clarity NOT a new poll don't worry !:D)

ACTUAL A-marriage

Where people leave their spoouses and divorce to marry their OP. I'd guess that most people would consider these "affair marriages".

TECHNICAL A-marriage

Where people's marriages are already in dissolution for reasons EXCLUDING a planned relationship with the person they eventually date and marry.

It seems to me that these definitions are as vague as most people's definitions of "adultery".

Cheating behind your spouses back in a arriage that is not undergoing dissolution is about the only scenario that petty much everyone would agree on as "adultery" so I'd guess THOSE affairs made into marriages are the "affair marriages" that are most disheartening for people being cheated on and newly repentent cheaters to see abetted on these boards.

Other folks definitions of adultery can include :

* dating before divorce proceedings are completed
* SF before divorce proceedings are complete
* "looking upon another woman lustfully" at any time

See ? Add to that the additional level of personal semantics folks apply to define an "acceptable" A-marriage ( forgiven after marriage, contrite, not contrite, cheated on etc etc) plus the extra conditions in which individuals are happy to counsel IN SPITE of petitioners meeting their definitions of A-spouses and you have a recipe for the mess we have right now.

So its intractable, star, unless those of us who find ourselves advising a petitioner discover that their current troubled M was a "actual" A-marriage we could quietly explain that moving to a quieter forum might avoid a pie fight and inadvertantly sending out the wrong message.

Then if the petitioner disagrees, well, theres not a whole lot practically that can be done.

All I know is that hardly anyone has complained about Jilly's sit since she moved somehere quiter.

* sigh *

While y'all stand around patting each other on the backs and congratulating one another for your cleverness, piety and superiority, let me pose something in parting.

Whether or not someone deserves help from you depends on only three things: 1) Can they be helped?; 2) Are they sincere in their desire to change?; and, 3) *Can* you help?. Someone who goes around congratulating themselves on how much good they do for the world is being hypocritical if they don't meet the criteria above in selecting *who* to help.

MB principles teach people how to have affair-proof marriages and just good marriages in general. Affairs happen when people don't have the skills to create a satisfying relationship. By refusing to help former affair partners learn how to make a marriage work, you are, by default, allowing a situation to continue where there could be repeated affairs. Most of these people could stay happily married, no matter how the marriage started, by learning what the Harleys say about relationships.

By helping others and self-righteously refusing to help people in these circumstances, you are, by default, condoning and perpetuating their destructive behavior. They will likely engage in future affairs and who knows, their next affair partner could be your WS or FWS. For some of you, that might just be poetic justice.

Adios.

While y'all stand around patting each other on the backs and congratulating one another for your cleverness, piety and superiority

Wow HP,thats just spooky ! Do you have a secret webcam in my house ?

let me pose something in parting.

Why would you leave a challenge for somebody and then leave rather than following it up ?

Whether or not someone deserves help from you depends on only three things: 1) Can they be helped?; 2) Are they sincere in their desire to change?; and, 3) *Can* you help?.

"deserves" help from me ? What a strange word to use.

Someone who goes around congratulating themselves on how much good they do for the world is being hypocritical if they don't meet the criteria above in selecting *who* to help.

Ah your webcam must be broken. If you saw someone doing that "congratulating myself" stuff it wasn't me.

MB principles teach people how to have affair-proof marriages and just good marriages in general. Affairs happen when people don't have the skills to create a satisfying relationship.

First sensible thing I heard from you in a while HP.

By refusing to help former affair partners learn how to make a marriage work, you are, by default, allowing a situation to continue where there could be repeated affairs.

Dr Harley says he struggles to help recover affair marriages. If the estimable doctor has trouble, I doubt very much if I can add any value, despite my piety, hypocrisy, cleverness and superiority etc.

Most of these people could stay happily married, no matter how the marriage started, by learning what the Harleys say about relationships.

So why don;t they, HP ? Only 5% of affairs result in marriage and only 3% of these last longer than 5 years. the books and websites are available to anyone. Its not the fact that pious Bob Pure doesn't counsel A-marriages doesn't cause those stats. I believe its because Affair marriages are built on broken foundations.

By helping others and self-righteously refusing to help people in these circumstances, you are, by default, condoning and perpetuating their destructive behavior.

So its my fault affair marriages are rubbish because I won't help them over non-affair marriages ?

They will likely engage in future affairs and who knows, their next affair partner could be your WS or FWS. For some of you, that might just be poetic justice.

But you just inferred that by learning what the Harleys say about reationships people can stay happily married, right ?

Well Squid and I did that in our marriage, why would we be vulnerable to having an affair with a wayward affair spouse ?

I think I understand the thrust of your comments pickinging between the seething bittrness : that as in the case of criminal recidivism , rehabilitation is more effective than punishment. Teach a wayward how to nurture their marriage and they may no cheat again.

I agree with that where there is repentence, but I do not consider waywards who remain married to each other to be repentant. Its like rehabilitating a burglar who doesn't give back his booty IMO.

I am certain you won't agree with my view, but there it is anyway.

Go read HopelesslyDevoted2's thread on GQ2 and see how broken she is by her XWS getting married to his OW.

That will tell you all you need to know about why I think counselling a-marriages on GQ2 is unhelpful.

Bob --
I haven't chimed in on these posts - because all I see is a slippery slope in trying to define "affair marriages."

What about the category of "one-sided affair marriages",
or "unintentional affair marriages"

A single guy or gal...gets involved with a married guy or gal who LIES about their true marital status. Let's say the divorce has been filed. Let's even say that the MM was a BS. The divorce is due to his WW's affair. He's a few weeks away from divorce and starts dating single and available gal. WW is still VERY wayward. The relationship progresses...a year later MM marries single gal. Total rebound relationship. Then, (of course) WW's affair deteriorates, and she wants her XH back. Starts causing trouble in the new marriage. Is the new wife not entitled to marriage builder's help because her marriage began as an AFFAIR?

Or how about all the BS's who start dating before their divorce is final. Then inevitably the WS comes back. Lets say the BS is unwilling to give up the new other person. The WS is willing to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to make it right. They earn their "F"WS. But the BS can't/won't give up the new person. Are they now in the category of "affair relationship"?

Lexxy I wrote about that three posts up to Starfish.

Everybody's view of technical affair marriages is different and enthusiastically defended.

And I haven't said a-spouses of anyones definition are not entitled to help, lexxy. People keep saying I have but I have not.

I personally don't think I'd help a "classic" affair marriage if I knew about it, but those that do want to should be able to help out in a place where a-marriages won't send out an un-marrigebuilding message to vulnerrable folks.

Actually I was adding to your categories.
Because it isn't always the original WS that ends up married to someone they got involved with before a divorce was final.

We have quite a lot of BS's who begin dating while awaiting the divorce.

This has become such a divisive board issue. And I'm sorry to see that happen. Because I can only think of two cases -- JJ's and Zog's. And I think its a shame that Zog's wasn't handled like JJ's -- where it was quietly moved so that people who want to support and help her could do so. Instead its become a huge board war -- over less than a fraction of a percent of the threads...

Now people who probably may NEVER have visited his post, are piping in and (I think) trying to chase him away. Simply because of the attention drawn to it.

Sorry Lexxy. I sort of thought your example was a "techical" A-marriage. But it serves to show how complex the issue is.

I wouldn't consider it an "affairage" if a BS who tried everything to save their marriage was rebuked and hurt constantly by a WS and then decided enough was enough and moved on in heart and mind with someone else. The WS lost their shot, its over from the point of the BS and he/she moved on with someone else in marriage. I would have not trouble helping a marriage like this should something come up. DISCLAIMER: you should not date until the ink is dry on your divorce papers imo.

[color:"red"] *fish [/color]



ain't that the truth RUTH !

Did anyone see the STAR WARS MOVIE special on the HISTORY channel? I TIVO'd it ... it touches on so many elements that have been discussed here .... generational consequences of sins of the father (also Biblical), diversity vs uniformity (storm troopers/Nazi storm troopers) cyclical nature of human endeavors (absolute power corrupts absolutely)

an interesting show on TV, for once

but, I digress

[color:"red"] HeartPain [/color]

if you say "adios" you are not helping us when we cannot help ourselves from not helping others !!!!!!!!!

oh noooooooooooooooooooooo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I need HELP

[color:"red"] HeartPain [/color]

if the following is true:



Then helping "them" is really a piece of cake.

Have them read Harley books/ tune into the Harley radio program / call the Harley's for counseling ...

problemo solved .... and the expense is MINIMAL if you leave out phone counseling ...

congratulations HeartPain !!!!
YOU solved the problem.

Thank you

“Its not the fact that pious Bob Pure doesn't counsel A-marriages doesn't cause those stats.”

Would Pious Pure Bob counsel my FWW’s OM? He is a serial philanderer who married one of the OW from his adulteries in his first marriage. He needs you bob. He really needs you. I’ll even pay for your services.

HP, are you more qualified to consult in his case? I’ll happily pay you to concentrate on OM too.

HP, have you read the title page to these forums? Let me extract a paragraph for you (emphasis mine):

“Please remember: With the exception of the Marriage Builders® Weekend Private forums, the advice offered on these forums is offered by your peers - it is NOT professional advice and should not be taken as such. If you want professional advice, please look at information about the MB Counseling Center, or seek a professional counselor.”

I think on the whole we might do more harm than good, you know. Support, a place to vent, technical advice in execution. Yes, those kinds of discussion may help some people. But we are amateurs, HP. You should not be assuming we do any good for anyone at all. You should in fact assume we do more harm in most cases than otherwise.

I probably type, “Call the MB counseling center!” more than any other phrase in all my posts here.

Who have you actually helped?

With prayers,

Actually Aphelion, your post made me think. HeartPains wish for me has already happened. Squid's OM was a serial adulterer with three divorces and two affair marriages behind him.

I actually already "counselled" OM in my own special, caring "pious" way.

He won't come this way again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />