This is the last paragraph of HopeandPray's last post:

Lori

ETA: I know you have H&P on ignore, but I thought you may be interested in this part.

LH,

Sorry that you can't see what I wrote. I don't mind being on ignore but I don't think that calling a spade a spade is personal destruction. I think being unwilling to call a spade a spade is the very reason that many ills visited upon people in this counrty and others are flourishing today. I understand your desire to help people. That's fine when if those people are "deserving" of help and yep, not every person is deserving of help, some need to cast away unfortunately. There are many WS's in affair marriages, LTA's, etc that are not remorseful for the pain they caused, are not repentant, have learned nothing, have not had any self reflection and yet want help because something has caused them pain, the person they cheated with has now cheated on them. The only reason they may be here is to alleviate the pain, the pain they had no trouble bestowing upon others and not shedding a tear in the process.

So, please ignore me if me telling someone the truth (albeit not in the nicest way sometimes) or calling someone to accountablilty (again regardless of the way or limited vocabulary I may use to do so) offends you or your beliefs. I am still grateful for the advice you provided me when I first arrived her regardless of our differences.

H&P,



Agreed.

vicious attacks.

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and your attacks on me are really nice !

If you felt like answering any of the questions that many posters have asked you that require you get of the fence and it would be quite helpful.

Even Solomon ( 1 kings 3: 16) couldn't help both of the mothers who wanted the child. He exercised wisdom to determine what was right.

He didn't offer a shared parenting agreement and then offered counselling to the sad one when the child was under the custody of the other woman, then counsel the other when the roles reversed.

HE CHOSE RIGHT.

If you want any chance of credibility in helping anyones marriage LH you need to exercise your wisdom and choose RIGHT.

LH
thanks for the polite and encouraging words.



No one suggested this to me. And, you have failed to address it with anything of substance. I know you are familiar with conflict of interest. How can 'helping' the BS try to recover marriage number one whilst 'helping' the WS work on marraige number two NOT be an issue? As I see it, you are guaranteed to fail on one front... likely on both. either you get the BS back together with the WS... or you get the WS working with the OP they married... quite convoluted, actually.

And a conflict of interest. How can you truly give your 'best help' to one side and that not effect the other side.

You and I are military men. You can't fight for the USA and the Russian's at the same time. They put you to death for crap like that.

So that is the issue I am addressing.

And I totally agree, it is a sad thing that people refrain from posting becasue they fear attack. Unfortunately, you often have to bare a weakspot in order to make a stand. If they truly have something to say... then they should say it. If it is important... say it.

And they don't have to stay in the shadows. They choose to. Justified or not, they choose to. If mental state is an issue to that degree, then at the very LEAST, they need to find a real, warm body that they trust and talk. Go to the church and talk. Connect with someone and get some feelings out.

Anonymous posting is not for the feint of heart. Sad but true.

frozen and I still read things here. She and I discuss them. Maybe in the future we will participate more in helping.

I suppose I would need to POJA that with her, yeah? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey!!!

Did my DH just say "connect with someone and get some feelings out"???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What a difference a couple of years of Recovery makes!

H&P, personal destruction comes into play when one uses mockery, insulting language, ridicule, and deliberately deceitful messages to anyone. Sir, I hope you’ll continue to refrain from doing those things, as your last post certainly suggests you will. Thank you. My friend, agreeing to disagree is just fine.


H&P, your concern is a legitimate argument to advance and I thank you for doing it in a logical, considered manner. Sir, if you find any WS’s who are encouraged by my stance that everyone who is repentant deserves my forgiveness as God has forgiven my transgressions, then send those WS’s to me. I will do my utmost to help them by trying to convince them they are dead wrong. I’m certain they are. Please review the discussion I used to begin this thread.

As for those they have harmed, H&P, I also am a victim of an “Affair Marriage.” You and I have intimate knowledge of the devastation such things cause. I hate what happened to me and my family. The destruction, if you will re-read the section about my youngest daughter, has not ended 34 years after the fact. Believe me, sir. I get it!

But, somewhere in my path from back then to here, I found it possible to rise above my bitterness and I’ve forgiven my ex for what she did to me. I saw it was poisoning everything I did and ruining every relationship I had a chance to develop. I’ve come to realize my ex is a badly flawed human being; she’s a victim of extreme emotional and physical abuse in her early life. She was wrong not to absorb a lesson her experiences could have taught her and, instead, passed the abuse on to others. However, the key is she is a human being, sir.

She was wrong, but H&P, I came to realize I have been wrong too. I’ve done a lot of things to people around me that I’m not particularly proud of. Sir, I asked God to forgive me for those trespasses against his teachings. Once I’ve done that, H&P, how in the world can I not pass it on to others? If I will not, is not my request for forgiveness from my God an act of disgusting hypocrisy?

Well, if I’ve given you some things to ponder, H&P, that’s my only intention. As you say, we can agree as gentlemen to simply disagree.

LH,

Thanks for reading my post. We are not as far apart as you would think.

My issue is really the forum for helping the partners of an affair marriage and whether any help provided comes so at the expense of others, who in my personal opinion, are more worthy of the help provided here. Above I stated that I don't think anything good comes of these people not receiving help. They need help. I do pause at helping those who have shown no remorse to the "dead bodies" they left in the street in having their affair. Im conflicted at providing the same help on the same board (I know it's not my call and wouldn't want to have to make it) as freshly betrayed BS's and lost and confused WS's when hope still exists to keep the marriage and family in tact.

I do believe you get it. I hope someday I can forgive my EX WW and OM. Of course it may help if I saw real repentance, remorse, instead of anger and bitterness at having had her/their fantasy (which you know did not include me except on EOW in their minds) balloon popped. I have moved on if not forgiven her. I only expect her to be a good mom to our children, nothing more and she will do that or I will do everything in my power to rectify the situation.

I do admit that I sometimes use harsher words than is necessary to make my point but I don't recoil from what I said above about their being no substitute for holding people accountable for their decisions. There must be consequences or there is no order to things. Chaos would rein.

Good talking to you again LH.

Thanks for responding, Patriot. Thanks for your support in saying you haven't heard of any WS who seems to be encouraged by this discussion, and no betrayed spouse has hesitated to approach me either. That was my observation, but it's nice to get corroboration.

I’m a little confused at your statement that I haven’t addressed it. What “substance” would you like to see?

Sir, I don’t see any conflict of interest. I am not serving two masters. I serve only my God in this issue. To me human beings who are hurting because of marital infidelity belong to only one “nation.” They belong to the league of sinners who are in pain. Patriot, I simply have made a decision if God can forgive what I’ve done to others because I’m remorseful, I will pass that forgiveness on to those who express remorse in their turn.

I’m glad you and your wife will consider coming back to this community. You have been sorely missed.

Hi, Froz. Good to see you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you so much for posting these two paragraphs that helped to uplift me today. And helped me to remember something I use to know so well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know after Weaver re-posted that comment I think I have a different perspective on things. It's true that to be forgiven I believe you have to be willing to forgive. No problem with me on that.

HOWEVER, forgiving and condoning are two different things. I may forgive my EX WW but condoning, legitimizing, enabling, encouraging, participating in, etc he soon to be affair marriage will never happen. Any consequences she experiences as a result of making this decision are all HERS. If the consequences result in her being unhappy, cheated on, divorced, her children despising her and not wanting to see her, her personal life in turmoil, this is not my cross to bear.

I can forgive and maybe over time forget (not sure about this one) but I will not help her legitimize what's she's done to our family, me and our children, nor will I help her avoid the consequences associated with her behavior and choices.

H&P,

I am a very big believer in consequences. I do not think they should be shielded on iota.

I believe very strongly though that those in affair marriages are paying the consequences of their actions, Some will continue to pay all their lives and some will change and grow and become people filled with God's grace.

Never shield anyone from the consequences of their actions is what I believe Noodle or Cymanca or someone says, and I believe it.

I also believe that the only way to grow is through lessons learned, and how can that lesson be learned if we are shilded from it. And waywards are in grave need of growth.

I struggle with affairs marriages so much, expecially when I read how people I reqpect so much are so against helping them. And reading their pain is just almost too much.

But then I look within and to my God, and find some answers there.

I feel sorry for them (the affair marrieds), the price they pay for their ignorance and self-centerdness is so very high. I believe waywards pay a higher price in the end than those who are left- behind, once they realize what they have done. I would not want that cross to bear.

It's tough boy, I do struggle with this one.

H&P, thanks for your reasoned explanation of your point of view. If I may suggest, you're very effective in this mode. Sir, if it is your intent to change "hearts and minds," this is the way to do it.


Sir, I believe in God’s eyes, we are all sinners striving for redemption and equal in His eyes. Didn’t the father forgive his prodigal son? Was not David forgiven his adultery and his sin of murder? Was not the prostitute forgiven by Jesus without her expressing any sort of remorse?

H&P, I hope you reach the peace I’ve found in my life. Do not let the anger consume you, my friend. It is a poison that will come to hurt you and your son far more than it ever could your unrepentant ex-wife.

H&P, will you consider the words of God in this? Consider Luke 6:37…


I have not been a very good person, much less a good Christian in most of my life, H&P. But I keep working on myself, and the above admonition from God seems to me to be a philosophy I can use here, and everywhere else in my life.

Hang in there, pardner. This too shall pass, and you will be whole and sane. Give your son an extra hug if you think of me when he’s close to you sometime. I never got any such from my father, but I give them on to children whenever I can...even remotely.

Thanks LH and I am glad that we can have a civil discourse here.

Hi, Weaver. Good to see you again. It's been a while since I've read one of your posts. Thank you for your kind words about my post.

Like you, I am adamant that no one should be shielded from the consequences of their actions. But...God reserves vengeance to Himself, does He not? (Deuteronomy 32:35)

Do I have the right to continue to act in such a manner as to punish adulterers after God (and mortals have concluded their legal action) decrees an end to the marriage?

Once the adulterer has been divorced, it feels to me like revenge if I demand retribution from even an adulterer who marries their affair partner. I hate revenge. It is such a slimy attitude and it flatly ignores every Christian ethic I know of.

The Bible is not clear on what happens to adulterers who divorce. Even those on the other side of the present issue agree with that; it is at best cloudy in the Christian Bible. Legally, there is no question the previous marriages have been ended and another begun. I would like to see anything from the Bible one can find that might shed light on this.

LH

^Bump^

If there is anyone out there still trying to recover and you're dispirited at the realization that "Affair Marriages" exist, please contact me by email, or come here to talk. I'm a victim of an "Affair Marriage" and I can understand very clearly your hurt. Please let me help, okay?

Reasoned discourse, huh. I dunno. My reason fails at affairs. They are totally unreasonable IMO. But anyway, some quick responses (I am the proverbial one-armed paper hanger at work today):


“There is no reason to do only one thing or the other. I'd help both, BP. What do you not understand about that?”

LH, you asked this of bOb but let me also answer: All of it. I do not understand any of it. See below.


“Aphelion, thank you for your opinion. I do not disparage any person's opinion; I hope you'll agree I have a right to one also, no matter how contrary.“

Good. We agree. Knock yourself out.


“An affair marriage is just a VLTA with a signed piece of paper making it somewhat socially acceptable and legal.

Would you please provide your support for that statement? I can find nothing in the Bible or in the laws of my state that would make that any more than a moral judgment. You’re entitled to make those judgments, btw. I’m just interested.”

Support? Why? Whatever for? It’s what I feel. Feelings are neither right nor wrong. They just are. Why should I justify what I feel?

Scriptural support for what I believe about marriage maybe? But there was such an unfruitful contention about this on that MM thread. I am loath to start that up again. All I will say is what Jesus is quoted as saying about marriage, adultery and remarriage is clear and unambiguous. To argue he did not mean what he said because of some non-relevant passage from Genesis, Judges or Kings or even from St Paul’s letters concerning his own long after the fact reinterpretation of what Jesus said plain and clear is a grievous error, and I don’t buy it.

For me, marriage is for life. Period. I try not to make more than one ‘till death do us part covenant with God per lifetime. I came within a gnat’s eyebrow of D’ing FWW, and I would never have remarried while she was living.

My personal goal regarding this issue is to come to an understanding regarding my commitment and involvement with these MB forums. If support for and justification of arriages becomes some sort of norm here I will probably leave. It is that strong of an ethical issue for me. At the least you are helping me determine my boundary in this. The mods have spoken. Now it is up to me to decide when to leave.


“I suppose I could protest you’re being a little mean spirited by trying to make me feel that pain all over again, but I forgive you.”

Wow. Feel the pain all over again. Right. And it’s OK with you that these arriages are aired out here on MB and cause so much revisited pain to others? This makes me wonder what this is really all about.


“But, in a larger sense, what you’ve reiterated above is actually what happens in ANY infidelity. Surely you understand such things are not unique to affairs that then result in other marriages?”

Of course. So, why post known triggers? Triggers that don’t need to be posted in the first place. Why justify, support and help the very arriage that rubbed salt in the wounds of BS everywhere in the first place? You may still be numb, or have developed thick calluses by now. But that’s just you.


“No, I’m not ignoring anyone’s pain, Aphelion. That’s the whole point. I want to help anyone in pain from marital discord.”

You understand you are not a professional counselor. Not an MC, IC or yoga instructor, right? So all you can do is lend a shoulder. Anything else is rather, um, irrational. In fact, any professional who counselled both sides of an issue like this would have their license revoked and be subjected to consumer lawsuits. It would be unethical .



“I do pay attention to expressions of remorse. How can I know what is in another’s heart when they say speak words full of remorse and guilt? I’ve made a decision to take everyone in the world at face value, Aphelion, until I read deception in their words. Aphelion, if I refused to accept such expressions from Zog, I’d have to refuse them from the formerly wayward spouses anywhere on this board, wouldn’t I? If I can’t believe one group of individuals, then I can’t believe any, now can I?”

Faulty logic. You should be more selective. Probably do less harm too.


“Have you approached any of the FWS’s on this board and expressed the viewpoint that you believe they are lying when they say they regret what they did?”

Oh yes. Several times. And as it turned out, they were, too. WS in an arriage are yeggs who do not want to let go of their swag. They stole what did not belong to them, and they only cry in pain now that they are in danger of losing it.


“If you’ve reviewed Zog’s thread, you’d find a lot of remorse and considerable expressions of guilt. If you remember, he gave his betrayed wife everything he had at the time of the divorce. He has made inquiries from time to time since their divorce 28 years ago and has found out she’s all right and happy. Did you not see those posts?”

I think he is dissembling. Actually I don’t believe him. He is a proven liar and cheater. Until he actually does something concrete, not just type it out into the aether, I reserve judgment. I’ve seen such empty protestations before.


“Atonement is a good issue, Aphelion. Thank you for raising it. What would you advise in such cases? How may Zog and others achieve redemption in your eyes? When they’ve asked God for forgiveness, and God assures us in the Bible it will be given, then what must they do in order to be granted succor from you? This is a serious question, Aphelion. Please don’t answer facetiously. Zog, for instance, is not omnipotent. He can’t go back 28 years into the past and do anything. Please don’t stoop to petulantly demanding he end his marriage and go back to his ex wife. That’s not intellectually honest and I’m sincerely interested in a discussion of Christian redemption.”

Christian redemption and secular marriage. Where do I start? This will have to wait. All I can say at the moment is he would get my help to change his ways. But he will never get my help rationalizing his arriage. That would betray my beliefs.


“I wouldn’t make a good AA sponsor? Well, that’s true, I suppose. I’m pretty sure all of them are former alcoholics, aren’t they?”

Yes, they are. The point being, a tried and true recovery program that requires as a concrete step to make amends to all one has harmed. Not lip service, genuine amends. BTW, this includes amends to oneself.


“Good, intellectual discourse is what this nation is built on.”

Depending on who you talk to it was:

The backs of the proletariat.
The sweat of the Irish.
The lands of the Native Americans.
My taxes. Err, Pio’s taxes, I mean.


With prayers,

Well, I thank you for your consideration of all those things. I see you have many subjective feelings on the subject and that's fine. I don't agree with many, but I respect your right to hold them. I only hope you can see I have a right to my point of view too. That you do not agree with my faith and my application of it does not invalidate that faith.


Well, I'm not a communist and I'm not particularly sympathetic to any manifesto that talks about a "proletariat." BUT, I'm Scot-Irish on my father's side and (partly) Cherokee on my mother's side, and I pay taxes...lots and lots of taxes, so when I suggest the country was built on good discourse, I think I've covered the better parts of who you think actually did, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a good evening, Aphelion, and a better day tomorrow.

LH, I think you know that I like you and have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but I am puzzled at how you think you can help both a BS and the troubled marriage of the BS' FWS/OP.

Suppose my marriage had ended and my WH had married the OW.

If I learned that the person who was trying to help me through my pain was also trying to help my WH and his OW heal/improve THEIR marriage, I would be devastated. It would be like being stabbed in the back, with the knife being twisted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

My reaction would definitely NOT be pretty! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />