Has their ever been such a thing happen on MB? An affair marriage and the BS both trying to salvage their marriages. One marriage has ended.

And don't get me wrong I am only trying to come to a place in my own mind regarding where I stand on this. I have tryied to help AM's here (Cruise, Venus/Mars, ZOG a little, and for awhile Pink Paige until I realized she had not undergone any inner changes).

The thought of our BS's here who were left behind for an affair marriage, Graycloud in particular comes to mind, is weighing heavy on me now, as I can not even come close to stomaching the thought of helping Sparrow and whathisface with theirs.

I'm torn, just for the record.

[color:"red"]2Long [/color]



"dirty emotional underwear" LOL-PIMD

Speaking for myself, I have gradually developed the ability (to my satisfaction) to determine which posters are probably unwilling to change their underwear ... and who will continue to live a life of emotional chaos dragging victims in their wake for a very very long time ... and I am humbled (not to mention relieved) that I have found the wherewithall to recognize that if I make a general call-out to help "all the hurt and depressed" on MB forums ... it is probable that the line formed at that particular ~support door~ would consist of the chronically self-victimized (WS and BS alike)

[color:"red"]Longhorn [/color]

ASKING for the damaged, you will get the self-selected, self-named damaged ....

~sometimes~ the ones damaged severely in childhood can become the most egregious seed spreaders ... casting their pain far and wide and caressing an entitlement to do so "because I was a victim" and thus blameless for all the damage they cause

"I can't be held responsible for acting this way, I was damaged."

Longhorn, you married such a woman. It was not good. PLEASE, be very cognizant and careful with yourself. I am most concerned that you do not become a life-long rescuer at your own cost~loss~detriment !

REALLY!

Please consider.

Weaver,

You've raised an interesting thought for me.

What do we normally tell a BS who's come here AFTER the D is final? Especially if the D has been final for more than a year or so?

If Zog's original BS showed up here, today, asking for help on re-winning Zog back...what would we tell someone who's been divorced for 28 YEARS about winning back their ex?

What advice have we given to others who have come here with less time on that same subject?

I know that not everyone will agree, but once the D is final, the marriage is over. If the marriage is over, there's no longer an affair. Now...will a marriage FOUNDED in infidelity be fill with problems...almost certainly. No arguments there...you get what you pay for. If you knowingly marry someone who's got a history of cheating...there ya go.

Had my wife left me, married OM, and come here for advice...I would have laughed my butt off. I would have felt she got what she deserved. I wouldn't have been angry if she came here...I wouldn't be angry if anyone helped her. I WOULDN'T CARE...because if she had left me for him, it would have been over FOREVER for us. I made that very clear to her...if she left me for him, I wouldn't take her back afterwards...I wasn't her backup plan.

Others don't feel that way...that's fine. But I personally dont have an issue with helping someone who's been married for 28 YEARS. I sure wouldn't be suggesting that his BS try to hook up with him after all this time. My thoughts at least.

Seems so easy for people to speculate when they haven't even worn those proverbial shoes, Owl.

Reminds me of the common theme where the BS pre discovery day states how they always told themselves and others "I'd kick him/her to the curb if they EVER cheated, no question".

Then D-day hits and here they are, desperate to save the marriage.

weave,

I understand your ambiguity. I have felt the same.

Yet…

Some people seem to possess no clean underwear at all…

If sparrow or tinman showed up here asking for help to save their affair marriage from yet more infidelity…well, that would be like omelette showing up. I would be sputtering with indignation if anyone gave them any marriage advice whatsoever. These, even in the annals of WS and OP are beyond the pale.

Yet…

Agreed...and while it didn't get that far, remember that she was all set to leave me for him. I was already facing that possibility/probability. I had to have my 'game plan' set for how to deal with things if/when she left.

And I truly believe I wouldn't have wanted her back if she'd been with him. The thought of her WITH him...well, I'm sure you get the picture.

I get your point, Resilient.

So what do YOU advise posters who come here years after the D has been finalized, wanting to reconcile with their BS? What WOULD you recommend...totally leaving an 'arriage' out of the picture for the moment?

There would have been no more poetic justice in my opinion than FWW and OM moving in together, and marrying even, after she left home hoping he would join her.

I could easily have helped it happen.

I would have hurt for her too much though.

Hard and dark Plan B worked like a charm.

Right.

Resilient you are another one who I would rather bite my own tongue off than hurt, humiliate or disrespect in anyway.

Does it matter if we don't know the BS, though. Do all affair marriages symbolize the affair marriage of our precious BS members here.

This is my dilemma...or is it even a dilemma? One by choice?

Because what the opponents are saying is there is no dilemma, nor should there be. You just don't help affair marriages.

But we get into biblical and/or spiritual problems internally. At least I do.

be right back ..... hold that thought

EXAMPLE:

HERE

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

and her outcome:

HERE

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Because what the opponents are saying is there is no dilemma, nor should there be. You just don't help affair marriages."

But, the individual may be helped to change their ways, mindset, actions, or underwear as the case may be.

I have no problem with letting consequences fall hard. It's how most WS, even ones who have been in a VLTA for 28 years, finally learn something. Most often it's the only way they will learn something.

Its all about my belief system.

For me I cannot reconcile supporting people going thru infidelity on a support site that will also support the perpetrators, regardless of how many years married or how many children they spawned. Supporting it advocates it, plain and simple.

I behave this way in real life (I ended a life long friendship due to an affair marriage) and I have no plans of being someone else virtually.

But moreover, I worry how our complacency in life in these matters assist affairs and affair marriages. The more silent we are, the more we accept it as the norm.

For me, thats the greatest concern.

Through working the MB program and trying to save their marriage they are changing their ways.

Venus/Mars didn't save his marriage but I would bet my bottom dollar that he will forever be a changed man through trying to save his marriage to his affair partner.

Last time they didn't try to save their marriage, but this time they will kill themselves trying to save it, and they probably won't. Why? because they have married their affair partner.

They are repaying in a way what they stole when their AM falls apart and they have to work so hard to save something that never should have been.

They do become changed. MB changes people, saves people, helps them recover. The ones who leave unchanged got a few more lessons to learn, and a few more hurts to inflict still, I suppose.

But does it hurt the BS's here? I don't want to cause harm to anyone. And I don't want to close my eyes to someone in need either.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Yes.

Gosh, thanks Ap and weaver.

I would be grateful. The statute of limitations is up when the survivors in the wake of the affair say it's up. Certainly not when the affair partners are married! That's insanity.

Acceptance of an affair based on the fact that the divorce is final and the affair has been rebadged as a marriage? I see that as an example of divergence between "religion" and "spirituality". On the religious side something is acceptable because it follows the rules some practitioners have chosen to care most about. On the spiritual side the important question is not whether or not a set of (possibly incoherent) rules are being followed, but whether or not the victims continue to suffer, or whether or not the perpetrators have made amends for their crimes.

By "spiritual" versus "religious" I mean the same thing as the well-known phrase "following the letter but not the spirit of the law".

To me following the spirit of the law matters more. That's why I did not become an attorney.

In this sense I find that very often people who call themselves "spiritual but not religious" (and may be ridiculed for it) are far more sensitive to ethics than people who practice a religion.

One more example sure to incite: a collection of potential Presidential candidates, several with the wreckage of broken families (among other things) behind them, those candidates enjoying the support of voters who claim to care about values.

GC

Good responses Pep...thanks.

How about the same situation, perhaps a LITTLE closer to what we're talking about here.

Same deal...now the BS has remarried (not an "arriage", but a good marriage started AFTER the D was final)?

Would you post the same advice? (I know that I'd most likely tell them to move on...otherwise anything their doing would lead to them being the OP in a new affair.)

The difference between the last situation I described and the Zog situation is that Zog married his affair partner...which I completely agree means he was begging for trouble. My point is...he IS re-married, and apparently moved on. Would you counsel his BS to get back with him after this, if she showed up on this site? Or would you tell her that she's better off without him?

If Zog's BS showed up today wanting him back...what advice would you give her?

The comparison everyone is using is if XXX's WS showed up today wanting advice on working on their 'arriage'...my take on it (my opinion) is that the first marriage is OVER, a divorce was finalized. We're not talking about THAT marriage...we're talking about the EXISTING marriage. The other marriage is dead and gone...the divorce was the end of that marriage.

Or does everyone feel that marriage DOESN'T end when the divorce goes through?

JeezeLouize OWL

cut me a break!

Kiwi, it's not OT at all. You're absolutely right. I was disgusted at what you were doing. You knew what you were doing was going to cause pain, you knew it was wrong, and you allowed yourself to become what a lot of people had worked long and hard with you to rise above. I would have that attitude with anyone I saw being that selfish and cruel to their spouse. Never doubt I dispise adultery in all its forms.

But Kiwi, you took all those 2X4's in stride and so far as I know, you've worked your way back to the light. I am not still berating you, am I?

Have you not expressed some shame, some regret, some remorse for letting yourself start down that well known "slippery slope?" Have you not taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again? Since I believe you have...and to the extent you desire anything from me, I've forgiven what you did. I, and no one else that I know of, has suggested that because you backslid, you should be banned from MB or shunted off to EN's, have I?

Kiwi, I think I've been entirely consistent there. If I failed to live up to my standards, it's because I'm imperfect and still trying to find my way.

Isn't that the truth! It's all about ALL OF OUR belief systems... and you know what?... I'm not about to shove my belief system down anyone's throat and I thank everyone not to do the same to me.

I think... at the end of the day... we all have to live with our errors in judgement, mistakes, and downright stupid choices... and believe it or not... Karma DOES come, even if you think it doesn't and even if you don't see it in this life.

I have made a lifetime of good and bad choices -some very bad choices- and have the rest of my life to make up the bad ones up to those I harmed, including MYSELF.

At some point, we have to own up to our failures, dust ourselves off and go forward in the most honourable way we can.

The wise Owl asked:


I would certainly tell her not to be "needy and clingy"...since Man of Fog indicated that's the reason they divorce 28 years ago.


The more I thought about this quote and the way Man of Fog laid out his entire thread initially, full of facts (especially STARTING out with the whole 1st marriage and affair part), then thereafter completely devoid of many facts or feelings at all, along with some other stuff, the MORE I tend to go with MDEC on this. Man of Zog is a troll!!!.

Think of it this way...the quote above, WHY is he discussing with MOM the reasons MOM's marriage is falling apart. Who does that??? Second, how many BS's don't fully sympathize with the other BS??

Maybe, just maybe, MOM's wife is needy and clingy cause her husband has been having an affair with your wife for MANY MANY years behind her back. Same thing with Man of Fog's former wife. He cake ate at home and dragged her through the coals for 8 months, supposedly, and 28 years later, he hasn't OWNED a thing. She's still was just too needy and clingy for him. Leaving her was for the best. No regrets whatsoever. If he's real...he's certainly not repentent. Foggy as ever.

Mr. Wondering

Good post Gray.



When the Bible and the church have been such a major influence and source of security for one most of their life it still influences, even after the actual belief in that source ends, and spirituality becomes intellectually more viable.

In other words, some of us are just a total mess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />