PN,

SB has posted to you. Read her signature about broken glass and love.

I would say that everyone here and looked at two people with some serious problems that came together. The problems you had together worked fine because you agreed to live that lifestyle.

Now you don't both agree.

You are now setting as a condition for him to me monogomous. That may not happen.

I think what we are trying to say is get yourself better. Find out why you made these choices, fix that. If he won't do the same you can't make him.

Good luck.

I again urge you to make amends to your Ex H.

Get tested for STD's and if so inclined demand NC, and try plan A I guess.

I really just recommend getting you better with help from the professionals.

PN,

I am trying to help you. I am not trying to be rude, but I am a bit blunt. I have devoted countless hours trying to help people save their marriage because they did the same for me in my darkest hour. My marriage still isn't out of the woods. Sure, my wife's several month affair is now over and she no longer has contact with the other man, but recovery is extremely slow. I haven't had sex with my wife in almost 10 months. She has been dragging her feet on recovery all the way, refusing counseling, being hostile towards me in the beginning, refusing to talk about what happened, and holding back intimacy even while I have been completely focused on her needs and avoiding love busters while my needs have gone completely neglected. I am about as selfless as they come. I am only interested in helping you. You may not like what I have to hear, but it would do you well to listen because I have no agenda other than helping those in need.

That being said, you need to focus on healing yourself, and getting to the bottom of why you made the choices that got you into this mess. You also need to separate yourself from those people who brought you into this lifestyle. Your current husband is one of those people, and you won't be able to heal yourself with him around. The analogy I will make is this: Suppose you are a heroine addict, and that's how you met your husband, shooting up. Suppose you want to finally kick the habit and make something of yourself. The last person you need to be around is your husband, assuming that he refuses to kick the habit. You need to drop your husband to save yourself. I'm sure you care very much about your husband, but as painful as it is, he only cares about himself. His first three wives haven't changed him. You won't be able to either. You need to focus on healing yourself so that your NEXT relationship will be a healthy one.

I tried to be a little less blunt this post. I hope you take to heart what I said. I'm hoping for the best for you.

PN... I love you very much and want you to listen to these ppl. I am going to tell you the same thing. Fix yourself, be yourself. The fog is thick and you may not see clearly everything. AND I KNOW WHAT THAT DOES TO YOU!! It frustrates you and you get angry. Lets just get you fixed before you even try to get WH to pay attention.
I can tell you he was upset that he tried to make conversation(so he says) today and you wouldnt say 3 words. I am concidering the source so no need to call and explain what happened... LOL
LovingAnyway has helped me trememndously with 2x4's and these giys and gals are swingin hard at your head with theirs. Please don't duck them! They will knock sensein to you that maybe i can't...
I am lucky to know you and I have told WH how disappointed I am in his decision to not work on this M. He seems to be struggling internally, but don;t get your hopes up.
PN, if he does decide to return to the fray... you will have to be prepared to be that better person and be prepared to be the stronger person than you are now so you will be able to HELP him to make the changes he needs to. Also if he doesnt return you will be that better person for the next guy or just for yourself for awhile! How awesome would that be??

PrayersNeeded,

Frankly, I find your story sooooo sad. It is clear you love your H. He may even love you in his manner. But, if you step back and really look at what you have said, your marriage has been one of defensiveness from the first day. You were so afraid of losing him even then that you brought other women into your bed to keep him with you.

Dear lady, a woman that is loved by her H does NOT have to do that. You fear his leaving, and yet you also fear his staying don't you?

Your world view about marriage is very skewed in my humble opinion, and I hope that you take the time to read the articles here because I think they will help you see what you have been missing.

I will stop now by addressing a few things you have said.
Dear lady, your faith and love of God will NOT change your H. It will change you. You have no control over your H, although from day one you have been trying to control him. You knew and you know that he would not be faithful to you, and you sold yourself down the river to try and prevent that. It did not work. He is who he is and will only change when HE finds it to his advantage.

One of the lessons you will learn her is that you only have control over yourself and your choices, not his. Frankly, he seems like a man that enjoys the hunt and until he is ready to settle down there is little you can do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


This is NOT your fault. His "addiction" is a self-indulgent excuse to do what he wants without regard to your feelings. You know this and that is why you have reacted as you have. You have not face the real fact that he doesn't really care what you think or feel. The data is very clear on that.

No matter how much you protest that you two love one another, the data is clear. He loves himself far more and will indulge himself whenever and however he sees fit, no matter the cost to you.

You should know by now that you cannot save him. All of the other women in his life did NOT end the relationship, HE ended the relationship just as he is doing with you. If you want to stay around and be emotionally abused by him and share him, he is willing to let you. If you don't, the message is clear, he is ready to move on. Quit trying to control this man! He does NOT care.

PrayersNeeded, if your marriage has a chance at all, it will require that you see things as they really are:

1. He effectively drove the other woman in his life away as he is doing to you.

2. He does not care if he hurts you or not, and you know it.

3. He would prefer that you let him go quietly, but if you really want to stay and share him and endure more of the pain you have had for the last three years, he won't fight it.

4. Your views of marriage need a serious realignment.

Please, please read the articles on this site. Please listen with an open mind to the advice being offered you. Please look at the DATA, and not what you hope to be true. There is no hope if you don't do this.

God Bless,

JL

AshamedH & Everyone,

Thank God today is almost over. WH is out with his son. But he won't get home until after midnight. He sits on the phone with his new girlfriend everynight.

It's been an okay day..I guess. I have spent the day on my little island (my bed) reading about SLA on the net and reading my Bible and posting my resume on the net. It is pretty obvious that I need to walk away from the company if I am dedicated to walking away from WH. I'm just glad the day is almost over. I remember feeling this same way while WH was in TX... counting down the days. Now I just want to be one more day closer to having this thing over with. No more rollercoaster of what might happen.

Tomorrow is my birthday. Last year WH took me to a nice hotel and dinner with flowers and everything. The year before that, an Alpaca farm. That was our dream for retirement... I thought. This year, I'll go to church, by myself, and then find someone from church to go to lunch with...maybe.

As scared as I am, I am looking forward to being on my own. It's something I've never done. But if I can accomplish and go through what I have the past 4 years, I can pretty much do anything.

I am going to reach out and establish some solid friendships with women. Another thing I've never done. I don't want to date or anything like it for quite sometime. I want to prove to myself that I can take care of myself..whoever that is...??? I guess this journey will help me discover an answer to that question.

My first SLAA meeting is Monday night. I'm kinda nervous. I think I'll just sit back and listen the first few times. I think I want to be on my own, and without the company, before I share too much about myself (ashamedH will understand this). Besides, listening is something I need practice at..LOL.

I just thought I'd give an update. Probably will do the same most nights. It seems to help.

Thanks.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

I would suggest that all the gloom and doom swinger bashers find other threads to participate in. This is a very real situation that is a lot more common than you think. In fact it's happened to me and I have had to change my screen name 3 or 4 times because of open marriage death squads that offer nothing but condemnation. This is suppose to be a place about hope in situations that are against all odds.

So first of all I would recommend reading "Out of the Shadows" by Patrick Carnes. You don't have to be abused to be a sex addict. More common its a situation of emotional abandonment by those you love as a child. Codependency is very common, just like alcohol addiction. I am glad to see you are joining a support group. It WILL help and there is hope.

I would also recommend intensive IC, and temporarily put aside worrying about what your husband is doing. Your only source of strength and love right now is from a higher power. That source of strength plus IC will get you where you need to go. The primary focus in IC should be boundaries. You need to focus on setting your own personal boundaries and get a lot stronger before you even think about repairing your marriage. But you can do this!

Finally I would augment all of the above with meditation or yoga. You need to look inward.

Peace. Happy Birthday. Welcome to MB!

PS - To all the swinger bashers:
"You have no power here. Be gone before someone drops a house on you too" (from Glenda)

From Penalty Kill

PN, welcome.

You state:
This statement intrigued me. Would you say that you were promiscuous when you were 19? How many sexual partners have you had?

What was your family life like when you were growing up? What is your relationship with your parents like now? At what age did you lose your virginity?

I don't expect you to answer these questions here in the forum, as they are very personal. I am trying to lead you in a direction that I think you should explore with a trained therapist. Not a marriage counselor - an IC, just for you.

Several things you have written in your various posts on the site have set off some very loud alarm bells for me. While I have no idea if your WH is a sex addict or not, he certainly seems like a poor prospect for marriage and an excellent prospect for heartbreak. You do not seem to value yourself very highly, and I have a suspicion as to why that may be, which is why I recommend some exhaustive therapy for you.

Take care.

chachanges,

Thank you for your comments about the swinger bashers. While I do agree that I (we) destroyed the sanctity of our marriage bed, I do not agree that what we did together was cheating or in anyway carries the emotional scars that cheating does.

One behavior is agreed to and shared, the other is deceitful and hurtful. I have worked on an analogy.. Imagine you loan some money to your best friend. A large sum of money. You sign all the papers for repayment and you wish your best friend well on his endeavor. This would be swinging. Now imagine your best friend embezzles or steals the same amount of money. You feel cheated and deceived and lied to.. you can't believe your best friend would do this to you. What did you do to deserve this? Why? Your trust and belief is betrayed. ... This is cheating. In both instances, your best friend has your money..but they are very different circumstances.

I know that the exchange of money is not the same as sharing your body with someone. But there is a difference between swinging and cheating. When WH continued to look for (and found) other women, I was hurt. I am hurt. I felt like I was not good enough. Like I did something wrong. Why would he do this to me?

I now know that none of this is my problem. WH is only happy in the honeymoon phase of any relationship and cannot step up to the pump when things are tough. He says he wants time on his own, but he can't exist that way. He thinks he is on his own right now, because his main squeeze is in TX and not physically with him. But, as long as he has a phone in his ear with some woman (any woman) telling him how great he is, he is on his honeymoon, and he is not alone. He has to have that to feel like he is someone. Besides, it's perfect for him. She can tell him how great he is from afar while he surfs the internet and finds any physical contact he desires....and she will never know. She will be abused and used and neglected and not even know it.

This is his pattern. He did the same exact thing to his last wife with a woman in CA. This woman in CA was his girlfriend and she wasn't even who he thought she was. He needed her to make him feel alive so badly that it didn't even matter. It's the same thing all over again.

I can't be concerned with how he has chosen to live his life. I had issues before I met him, and new ones that he helped create. I have to focus on my own recovery. But I will pray for WH... only pray, not worry or concern. I cannot spend energy on that.

Sorry.. I kinda got off track. Thanks again for your comments about the swinger bashers. I have left that lifestyle behind me and am looking forward to a life walking close with God.

You made a point that I have tried to make for a number of years on here. Swinging is POJA and not cheating. Thats exactly why I get frustrated with the bashers. Enough said on that one.

Yes you have been hurt deeply with your husbands betrayal. Don't let anyone tell you that it hurts any less than any other affair. Don't let anyone tell you that you enabled this. He broke your trust. He continues to betray you with his cell phone. Do not give up.

I don't think you can jump right into Plan A with something like this. If you are anything like me, you really need to get a handle on yourself and the co-dependency/addiction. Stick to the experts with your IC and support groups for that. Any psychoanalysis here is from people that mean well, but this is one for the experts.

I truly believe there is hope for both you and your husband. Once you find some support from that higher power and others in your group meetings you can then start a Plan A. Especially in your case your husband is getting emotional needs met from you, but they can be the wrong emotional needs if they feed his addiction. You need to clearly understand this before attempting any kind of Plan A.

I would give Plan A very little time. In this case it should be enough for you husband to see that you can support him but that you refuse to get sucked into his fantasys. It adds a whole other level of complexity to Plan A. Plan A will probably not work but I would give it a couple of months (only when you are ready), and then move to B.

So my advice is a modified B while you work on yourself, Plan A for a couple of months, then a dark Plan B. That's where I am right now. A very, very dark Plan B. I feel better about myself than I have in years. Is it working on my WW? To early to tell.

PN:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that you can see how people react to what you say. The bad thing about this forum is that they do react to what you say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is a standard here; one women, one man, family, no affairs, no swinging, keep your panties up, your fly zipped and be true to your mate. The reason for the standard is that it works. If you can do it, life all of a sudden gets easier to endure. You are safe. You are secure. You can trust. You can focus on enjoying life instead of worrying if your husband is going to give you an STD or your wife is gonna run off with the lawn boy.

It is all about how to have a safe and loving relationship.

Many people get involved in the swinging lifestyle for all sorts of reasons. Most abandon that lifestyle, each for their own reason. Yet few abandon the lifestyle of family and monogamy once they discover it and learn how to protect their weaknesses. Now why do you suppose that is? How about safety and security and a lack of unnecessary drama? Now it is not my purpose to bash swinging, just to point out that you have decided to end that part of your life for your own reasons, yet your husband continues to pursue his dreams. And there is a reason he does it.

I understand your feelings about your husband. I really, really do. I understand because I have made a study of infatuations which some call "romantic love." You are in a combination of infatuation and guilt driven determination to make things work, no matter what. There are only two things wrong with that.

First of all, your infatuation will hit rock bottom shortly after you quit feeding it. You will wake up one morning and wonder what the heck you were thinking. The reason for this is because you brain is feeding off of a chemical called, PEA, phenylethylalamine. This amphetamine like drug, sometimes called the drug of infatuation, is secreted in a person’s brain. PEA raises the sex drive and thus “turns people on.” Sexually passive people are suddenly very active.

There are a bunch of other things associated with PEA and I won't detail them here, but you reflect someone who is in the grips of that chemical. The first reason that the infatuation (Romantic Love) must end is that PEA, phenylethylalamine, the chemical basis for the “feel good,” is a short term effect. It stops. One day your partner will walk into the room, and you won’t be turned on. And it will never come back with that person again. It seems to be part of the mating process in mammals and after a while just stops.

The chemical dying off and the guilt association will eventually change the way you think about your current husband. At that point in time, you will wonder what the heck you were thinking.

Secondly, it isn't just you. Your husband needs his PEA "FIX" and he has no interest in changing his way of doing business, unlike yourself. He is not ready to grow up. Now you can continue to abuse yourself and continue to lower your own self respect hoping he will or that you can somehow change HIM. The fact is nobody can change anybody, only themselves. God and Mom made him, you cannot change him. And it is what it is. From that point, you make decisions based on your own best interest. Certainly he is making decisions based on his own best interest and that obviously doesn't include you. Sorry.

All the best,

Larry

chachanges,

I only wish that what you wrote could possibly happen. I have offered and even begged my WH to hold on and let us go to therapy to see what we can salvage. He wants nothing to do with it. I am clearly the bad guy and he wants nothing to do with me. It doesn't help the situtation that he has a new girlfriend (who I am sure only knows part of the story) telling him he shouldn't have to deal with my nagging anymore. He doesn't want to be nagged about his infidelities or anything else... and it is easier to just move on to the next one than it is to put any work into our marriage.

I am willing to forgive everything. I have begged him to forgive me. I am willing to attend my own therapy and he attend his. I am willing to do most anything to save this marriage. He won't even discuss it. So I have to make plans for my own future. I hurts so bad, and he doesn't care at all. But, I can't worry about that. I have to take care of my own recovery.

I still sometimes find myself praying that he will agree to go back to therapy. I don't think 4 months of off and on marriage counseling is enough to fix problems of this magnitude. But WH doesn't want to fix anything with his WIFE.. he already has a girlfriend that everything is perfect with. So why put in any work on the woman he promised to spend the rest of his life with??

I am still pretty much in shock over all of this. I am so hurt and confused. I have really found it helpful to come to MB and see what others have to say and to share what is going on. I just can't seem to accept he doesn't love me enough to spend anytime working on our marriage. I just can't seem to get that through my head. He never loved me at all. I can't... It just hurts so bad. Why did he do this to me?? For better or for worse... total BS!!! I never gave up on him. Never. He disposes of me like a used Kleenex. Walking around the house like a proud peacock...his new girlfriend calling everynight...he's high as a kite...she just thinks he's the greatest thing... HE IS STILL MY HUSBAND!!!! HE MARRIED ME!!! How can he do this to me???

I guess I will get over it someday.

<~~~ wife #5 .... the future Mrs X-Swinger

do you think YOU knew the "whole story" when you married him?

His is a lifestyle choice ...

Did you think that if you bent your morals and values to mold your character into a swingers... and you filled your body with bags of saline to look less realistic and more centerfold .... did you think .... he'd be so grateful that he would never leave you like he left wives one, two and three?

try stepping waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back away from the emotional soup of this

try thinking your way through this and not feeling your way through this

apply logic
insert values
install principles

if you get some distance emotionally

you will know what to do

PN"


How indeed. Just like he did it to wives #1, #2, and #3 and eventually to #5.

It isn't about you PN, it is about him. He likes his PEA high. Didn't you?

Larry

hunny, you married a FREELOADER

[color:"green"]Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
[/color]


His saying : "I DO" ....for the 4th time .... and then pulling you into swinging and plastic surgery .... and God knows what else .... is a C L U E that the man has issues !!!!

Before WH ends up reading this and accusses me of making things appear different than they really are... He did not pull me into swinging. When I was young, prior to my first marriage, I had been the "other woman" with a few couples. And in mine and WH marriage, I was the one who said we would invite other women to join us. I did so, originally, because I wanted to keep the spice in our sexual relationship because in my first marriage, there was no sex the last 5 years. I did not want that to happen again. I know, it was a bad idea. But that is why I did it.

Eventually though, I continued doing it, or going to clubs, in a vain attempt to keep WH from cheating on me. I found him posted on the internet, looking for women for himself, just one month after we were married. I felt like, if I could satisfy his need for other women, he would not need to deceive me. My fear was that I would lose him to another woman. I felt like I could limit that possibility if we "played" together. But, he continued to still look for other women, so I just stopped going to "the club" because it was not acheiving what I wanted it to...and it just killed me to see him with other women. It kills me to think of him with other women. But it was a price I was willing to pay if it kept him with me. But eventhough he could be with other women WITH me, he still searched for other women WITHOUT me. (So to those of you that are stuck on the idea that he just kept doing what I told him he could do in the marriage and then I changed my mind... you are wrong. I never said he could be with women without me and he was looking for women without me when I was allowing women with me. It did not start when I put an end to swinging. It was always happening.)

As for the plastic surgery.. that was my idea too. I was feeling very low. Believing that if I looked different, (what he wanted) he wouldn't need anyone else. I now realize that he would still do this no matter what I look like.

I did all the wrong things. But they were ALL things I tried to do to keep him happy and always interested in me. I just didn't want to ever lose him. I still don't. He just doesn't love me, so he doesn't want to try.

I have tried to tell him that the new woman will get tarnished too and that the way he feels "for now" is nothing to give up a marriage over. But he says it's not about her...It's me.. he just can't live with me anymore. I believe he just doesn't want to work on making our marriage a marriage where we are both happy. If he put any work into it, we would both be able to live with each other. I could respect him..what he wants. And he could love me..what I want. But he just finds it easier to runaway... or to someone else...like he always does. I would love it if he really loved me and found me to be a valuable person and wanted to work on our marriage because of that love. But he doesn't love me.

Thank you for your support and comments.

so

if I understand you correctly

you would do just about anything (including swinging, etc) if it would get him to return to you ... tell you he loves you ... and try marriage number 4 again ... is this correct?

PN,

I commend you on your openness and honesty her, it hard to think of someone feeling good and wanting to come post after so many 2x4's.

I am not a swinger, never was and never will be, but I agree its a choice and a lifestyle that some live. I think both people need to be healthy in any relationship and when one is not doesn't matter what the lifestyle is it will cause problems.

What I have read in your post is that you continue to blame yourself for his actions, you try and fix him, you try and justify his actions by making your fault... that is co-depedenancies.

I want to know what your plans for your recovery are, what are you going to do?

Are you going to ever swing again?
Are you going to be with women again?
Are you going to live a godly life?

I think you need to focus on you and leave your WH alone and let him figure it out for himself, but if your W 5 I dont see him changing much

Let me chime in on the whole swinging debate.

First of all, the institute of marriage was created by God. If you do not have God in your marriage, it is doomed for failure. I'm pretty sure that God doesn't think too highly of swinging. Swinging is ADULTERY - having sexual relations with someone other than your spouse.

Secondly, swinging does not protect your marriage from an affair. I won't even hang out with a woman by myself anymore. Do you know why? Because if that woman were to meet some of my emotional needs, I would be tempted to let her meet more. That in turn would take my attention away from my wife. I understand that I am human. If I were put in the wronge situation, I might succumb to temptation. The key is not putting yourself in a situation like that. By swinging you are already allowing multiple people to meet your H's EN for SF. If that is his most important need, you just gave another woman an in with your husband.

Sex is meant for a husband and wife to bring them closer together. You didn't have that closeness with your first husband because you didn't have sex. You don't have it with your second husband because instead of just sharing it between you two, you share it with strangers. The solution of your less than adequate sex life from your first marriage was not swinging. You just moved the problem around.

I'm not judging you, but you need to realize that if you want your next relationship to pan out, swinging cannot be a part of it.