All I can say is that there are no signs of it. When he's not at work, he's at our friend's house (older married couple) and never goes out. Plus he has that physical problem anyway. But even if it's true, there's nothing I can do about that right now. He made it clear he wants to focus on his job search. Plus he's angry I got rid of some stuff that was costing us too much money to keep, but that's a different thread.


You'll have to be more specific, please.

None of what you say is relevant to my point, which is this: You can't tell what someone's religious views are by their actions. Simply being pious doesn't stop a person from doing something wrong. If you don't believe me, look at the research. It's in the book "The Psychology of Religion: An Empirical Approach."

And stop talking to me like I'm currently wayward. How many times do I have to tell people I've quit?

Then stop arguing from the wayward MINDSET Aph...Right now that is what I see and believe me that I recognize that particular territory, I've BTDT, remember? I see you arguing this swinging issue to AVOID focusing on what is going on INSIDE of YOU...

Mrs. W

committed, I was talking about flirting and conversations with men, not sex. The sex was for entirely different reasons. But boredom was not the original reason for flirting, either, it was for the pursuit of and maintenance of sexual relationships. It's just that I didn't realize how much time I spent flirting until I stopped. Boredom was the result of quitting the flirting but it wasn't the original reason for it.

committed said
Not true at all. People value their autonomy but you have to give some of that up in order to have a romantic relationship and especially if you want to marry.

People value having control over their own lives but you have to share control in order to be married. Just look at POJA - you can't do anything without your spouse's enthusiastic agreement. Obviously that means trading quite a lot of something of value in order to get a good marriage.

People value freedom, but you have to give some of that up in order to have children. Most people including me consider it worth the trade, but it's still a trade.



[quote]Who wants the shell?]

Someone who thinks that increased emotional intimacy is not worth the risk of that person leaving them for someone else. Someone who would rather have a semi-intimate companion for life than to be divorced because his or her spouse left for another person. I'm not saying that's what people SHOULD do, only that some people do.

Right. Of course, I'm sure there are some people who *think* they are okay with their spouse having sex with someone else and then after it happens they change their mind. But at least they don't have the double-whammy of having been duped.


Right. I don't see any cause to cry foul either, although the desire to cry foul is a sign that the original agreement to swing was a mistake. Thus, the person can't be faulted for wanting to renegotiate and correct that mistake.

Mrs. Wondering,

In a way, I was talking about myself by saying my behavior was much worse than that of a swinger because of my deception. I don't accept that what they do is just as bad as what I did. I was far worse. I guess I should have stated it exactly that way.

What I am saying to you quit or not, religious or not, I don't care is that you have or had a hole inside you that allow/allowed you to participate in what you have participated in and to now still, in some wayward way, want to defend, rationalize, justify, marginalize (pick your poison).

My comments are relative because you have or are seeking something from men, women, a lifestyle, whatever that can't be attained from eartly gotten gains. No matter how much sex, how many men, how exciting a lifestyle you lead or your WH leads will make you content, joyous. Fleeting moments of happiness from the chemicals in the brain (like eating a lot of chocolate or exercising) are all that you will get. No lasting peace or joy.

Marriage is a closed contract. When you open it....the contract has been broken. There are some people who argue that the contract is about "honesty" rather than "exclusivity", but opening a marriage invariable dilutes it's value as a covenant and opens it to RISK. Promiscuity waters down honor and marriage vows until they mean NOTHING.

I truly believe that there is a sanctity in the exclusive (emotional AND sexual) union of TWO people that provides the strongest bond, the most opportunity for depth and growth, the most stable environment for children, families and communities. It weakens us as a society when marriage models are flawed or fail.

If you "want it all"....don't get married or have children. I could care less if people want a hundred sex partners....but don't marry....and don't bring innocent children into the nightmare you're creating for yourself and bring them into the risk and drama that open marriage INVITES into your life.

Every time you add another person, another couple, fuzzy boundaries and wishful thinking....you increase RISK exponentially.

You think marriage with two people is hard??? Lord in Heaven....just start adding sex partners if you want a crash course for self destruct, shame and pain.

Can it be done successfully? Some say yes....but *I* don't believe it...I say....it's just another fantasy like the rest of affairs. I was hippie, and we grocked like the rest of the "Strangers in a Strange Land". What a delusion. This stuff was tried and failed. The only thing that differentiates swinging from affairs is the *honesty*.....and most of the time....that breaks down anyway!! It starts out honest until real feelings get in the way.....and they always get in the way, because we're WIRED that way.

But even if it didn't. Let's say two people agree to share their bodies but not their emotions and do it all above board....this is not a recipe for marriage...it's a recipe for tragedy, shame, denial and divorce. The essential problem with swinging is that it takes energy away from the primary relationship with spouse, family and children. It waters it down. It strains it. It undermines the intimacy.

It's next to impossible to share something as intimate as sex, and not develope affair-style biochemistry that acts on the marriage like ANY OTHER AFFAIR. You're kidding yourself if you think your biochemistry won't betray you.

I've spoken to many many people in this situation....and sadly....the results are as predictable as any other kind of affair. Somebody wants it....somebody gets talked into it. There is an agreement. It goes okay for a while....sometimes even a good long while. Then someone crosses the line....they start to hide their emotional involvement with one of their sex partners, or they get that "in love" biochemistry and there's no difference at all in the script....bla bla bla.

I honestly can't understand why people who want an open marriage, get married at all. Polyamory, open marriages, swinging....they are finally nothing but a selfish illusion that eventually blows up and creates shame and the destruction of families....JUST LIKE ANY OTHER kind of infidelity.

I've done extensive research on this subject. I have found absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that these models are sustainable long enough to raise children. In fact, the only research available says quite the opposite. The only place you get a real rosy picture of this lifestyle....is on the sites that promote it! Duh

It's a trap, a Brigadoon,....an insidious cancer like any other adultery that promises Utopia and delivers drama and heartbreak. There are probably a few die hard swingers who follow through....but for the majority of us....don't try this at home!! There are people who try to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I agree with people who say that humans are probably not naturally monogamous. No siree....it takes strength of character to avoid temptation. It takes pain and forgiveness to move past the pitfalls and failures. But to me, that's precisely what makes marriage so special and unique...that we can rise above our primal roots and make a commitment that transcends even nature. That we care enough about one person to be MORE than our sexual yearnings for change. How cool is that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Star, you said EXACTLY what I wanted to say. EXACTLY.

Except you said it MUCH better than I could have.

ooooooooooh lalalalalalala

:::standing ovation material, Star...if I could whistle shrilly, I would:::

Thank you very much!

LA

Not true at all. People value their autonomy but you have to give some of that up in order to have a romantic relationship and especially if you want to marry.

I guess I never considered it giving anything up when I married.

I don't think that I ever thought that having kids meant that I gave something up either.

Stages in life doesn't mean giving anything up to me. It just means that things change...and things are done differently. Nothing is lost.

committed

I agree committed.

And I'll go one step further.....*IF* you give up your autonomy to have a romantic relationship, get married, have children etc.....you're not that healthy!. And you won't be very successful in any of those relationships because you've sold yourself out. But being "true" to oneself has nothing to do with self-indulgence.

There has to be a balance in life between what's good for me....and what's good for the people who I love and who depend on me. I'll never be happy while I compromise the happiness of others.

If entering a relationship is a "sacrifice" then it's a focus on what we've lost as an individuals rather than what we've GAINED as citizens of life, love and promise. There is nothing wrong with individual happiness....but not at the expense of others. "Non-contradictory" joy....is joy without penalty or guilt. It is PURE joy....not selfish joy....not empty pleasure. What we feed....grows. If you feed sexual entitlement....you end up a slave to your sexuality....with no real intimacy even in your marriage.

I didn't sacrifice things to be a wife and mother....I grew to be a finer human being BECAUSE of those roles and the challenges they created. Sacrifice assumes that the world is ALL about ME. HA!

What a lonely freaking world that would be!!

I'd like anyone to explain to me how open marriage or swinging serves anything but illusion, debauchery, or indulgence??? How does it serve marriage? commitment? or honor? How?

Believing that entering relationships assumes that anytime we GIVE....we suffer and lose....is limiting. *huh?* Quite the opposite is the reality. The MORE I give the more I gain. The more I honor my commitments...the more honor is bestowed upon me. The more I honor myself, my body, my spirit....the more love I recieve.

Self indulgence is easy, self serving, and often pleasurable in it's simplicity. But it lacks the complexity, consistency and durability of true fulfillment, which takes as much of an investment in the happiness of others, as it does in the happiness of self. You can't be ethical without understanding that we ARE our brother's keeper...our spouse's keeper, our children's keeper, our parent's keeper, our society's keeper.

Promiscuity is the indulgence of youth and ignorance. Sexuality only reaches real fruition when we reach beyond MERE variety and impulsiveness and strive for depth and growth. THAT is a sexuality that serves life, commmunity, children, and God.

Wow Star*fish - Great posts.

BigK>checking to see if it's a full moon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We DO give up our autonomy to be married. The POJA dictates against autonomy. It does not dictate against individuality or a good self image.... but autonomy is indicative of self rule... unilateral decisions...so I would say that anyone that does not give up autonomy when they get married is doomed. I am just going by the definition of the word being discussed here. Please tell me what part of the POJA would advocate autonomy. I do belive the rest of SF's post is dead on accurate... but there is something given up and that is the ability to make decsions without taking anothers opinion into account. What is gained is so much more than what is given up...but in a good marriage there is no room for autonomy in my opinion.

Great post, star. I started crying when I read it.

It is very true, and really helps to explain why infidelity hurts so da** bad.

It doesn't matter if you are talking about "swinging" or just plain old adultery. There is a bond in a marriage that is strong and sacred, and like you said, once that "closed contract" is broken and the exclusivity between two married people is violated, it does make one feel that the sacredness of the M and vows are now diluted. They are watered down. They don't mean what they should.

Great post. Thanks for putting into words what I could not.

medc,


Maybe you and I view "autonomy" differently and that's okay. But I always think of the giver and taker. You need BOTH of them. Without the individual and moral freedom of the individual...there is no taker...and without the taker...there is no negotiation. You can't negotiate with your giver....that's the road to sacrifice and resentment. Pep has my post about the "Good Taker and the Bad Giver" on her notable thread. It describes how important the balance is to healthy marriages.

You're equating autonomy with "indedepent behavior"...a lovebuster....and I can understand how you might interpret it that way, but I know it's the taker who saved my marriage....not my giver. It wasn't until I reclaimed my autonomy that I stopped being a doormat. I think if we give so much of ourself that we lose autonomy (give give give) eventually the taker comes raging to the surface unchecked and destructive instead of protecting us.

To be a good partner....we have to be two whole people. "Wholeness" is a product of knowing who we are....being AWARE and certain about our identity, having the moral independence to know what is right and wrong....apart from the groups or partnerships we join. No one can LEAD without autonomy. And no one can negotiate without autonomy either.

The trick is to honor a union that has two whole individuals and work as a team.

Well....that's what I think anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Swinging is the same as adultery, Aphrodite, it IS adultery. Openness about bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Nor is "abandonment" or "misguidedness" an excuse for adultery. There is no excuse, no acceptable rationalization.


That sounds pretty "judgmental," afrodite. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

starfish and MEDC, I think you are both saying the exact same thing but defining it differently. I agree with you both. The definition of autonomy is INDEPENDENCE, which is a lovebuster. What Harley advocates is interdependent behavior, using both the taker and giver, as star said.


And just the opposite for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have had to learn to put a choke chain on my taker and reign in my independent behavior. WHOA NELLIE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />