ahope,

STOP LB on him. Yes it sucks BIG time to have to keep your Turkey hole shut, but it is a must.

Plan A is about breaking up the A and making all the changes to yourself that need to be done.

You want him at home. Don't kick him out. When you see him you should look good, fresh, acting nice. You want him to notice you and then (in time) fall back into love with you. This crap takes time. I was in Plan A for 7 months until my wife came around.

It does work and you can do it.

M2L,

Thank you so much for the encouragement. I feel like I'm losing my mind. He is so evasive and irresponsible with everything. Won't even answer a direct question. I can't even tell if I miss him, we never spend the night apart and he has slept on the couch in the basement since Saturday. My sons cat, the grown lady of the three has been sleeping with me (she normally sleeps with my son), she is a sweet girl and has always known when I was lonely or sad and been cuddly then. My H sure could learn a lot from that cat! But what do I do if he just hops in bed and snuggles up like nothing is wrong? He is notorious for letting the dust settle then going back to the way things were.

But there is no back to go this time. This isn't a normal argument. I am not guilty for 'snooping'. I look at it like if I were asleep and somewhere in the night smelled s*!t, woke up in the morning and pulled back the covers to see if were just an aromatic reminder of questionable food the night before or....oh my! There is s*!t in my bed. It is your s*!t, my uncovering it is merely good housekeeping.

He over drew the checking account twice in 2 days and is so cavelier about it! Is this person 15 or 45?

Ahopefulone,

Give yourself a little on break on the thinking that you are crazy thing.

Your brain has suffered what is the equivalent of a head on car crash with a semi truck.

We all felt like we were going crazy. Unfortunately, WS’s gain more power by us challenging our own capabilities, in particular our ability to reason.

When they are on top of their game, doing their WS thing, then you may find yourself doubting that you know your own name.

Have you read any of the MB material yet?

It is pretty much a universal truth that during adultery, the adulterer is a first class a*hole to their spouse. When they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they are panicked.

They know that serious consequence is about to befall them, but they want to control the decent!

Right now you should be in Plan A, using the principles of “The Carrot and the Stick”.

Continue to freak out here if you need to. We are very used to it. He will not receive and Lovebusting well at all right now, and that will actually hurt your situation in the long run.

Best regards,

There is nothing wrong with snooping.

You just don't want to rub it in his face.

Don't get caught doing it because it's a lovebuster.

Protect your sources right now, so that he won't know how you are gathering intelligence if possible.

You will later use these same sources to help verify truthfulness.

Right now believe half of what you see and NONE of what you hear sputtering out of his mouth.

Plank, Take a look at the link 'my previous thread' it will give you a clearer view. I confronted him, OW and OWH within hours of each other. Did not reveal sources, said the concrete 876 cell phone calls since July is inappropraite. I try not to love bust. Looked cute leaving for work this morning. I think he noticed when he moved his car so I could get out. But that was on the heels of the overdraft discussion.

I read this site like crazy, have HNHN, and am getting SSA. So ok, I get the no LB. I can do that. Carrot and stick. How do you do that if he won't even talk? Right now he just ignores me, comes and goes as he pleases, sleeps on the couch in the basement (I have not asked him not to which I normally would do). And there are things that need to be discussed, like not overdrafting our account twice in 2 days....that ain't pleasant stuff. And I try to be as soft spoken and respectful as possible but it sure isn't sugar and spice.

This is where I come to vent, get advice, whimper, rant and laugh (thanks BetrayedCajun!)I don't know what I would do if it weren't for God leading me to this wonderful site and you incredible people. You have blessed me beyond measure!

OK Hope, here I am.

Now, the best advice I can give a newby, well newbier than me, is to Plan A your A$$ off with NO expectations. For now NOTHING you do will have immediate results. It takes time for Plan A to be noticed. Also keep in mind that Plan A only works something like 20% of the time. The reason for Plan A is to make Plan B more effective.

NOW, Plan A isn't about being a doormat either. You do need to establish some boundaries and live by them. Him ignoring you is fine. Him destroying the checking account isn't.

Don't ask me how to handle it. I have no idea. I just know that needs to be addressed.

It takes a little time to figure out how to Plan A effectively. You have to constantly work at it and modify it. I don't know where they went, but there are some AMAZING Plan A articles around here. Do a search on Lighthouse, Carrot, and Stick over the past few years. I remember finding some of those articles the key to a great Plan A. You really have to dig for the good stuff.

Learn how to seperate your WH from your H. They are not the same person and you have to treat them accordingly.

You've got a few Pro's helping you already. Take their advice to the bank.

Good Luck

You got great advice from Plank.

Try to ignore the fact that he's not talking. Chances are, you don't want to hear what he has to say, anyway, so him not talking might be a blessing. Yes, it will suck trying to be nice in the face of hostility, but that's part of what Plan A is. Do you understand how Plan A works? Understanding what he's doing and why and what to do about it is key.

Any time you LB or even do what feels like LB'ing to his Fog-addled mind (like maybe asking him to not sleep in the basement), it just gives him ammunition for what he desperately wants to believe--that there's something wrong with your relationship that entitles him to do what he's doing. When you eliminate LB's and try to meet his ENs, this will confuse him. It may make him angry, because it will put him into conflict. He will probably try to prevent you from meeting his ENs and may try to bait you into fighting with him.

Any time you LB, you will set your Plan A back significantly. The negative things you do will be much more significant to him than the positive ones, so be really careful. When you feel yourself getting angry, get away. Check your breathing. Take walks. Make sure you're getting enough exercise.

Plan A is very difficult, but I think you need to do it more before going to Plan B.

Ok guys; I'm controling the LBing....but the financial stuff is not a joke and not negotiable, I'll have to figure that one out. He is doing it to irritate/punish me I'm sure. If I say go left and am angry he'll look me straight in the eye and go right. Stubborn and spoiled! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Bluntly, in plan A in this alternate universe, what if he comes back to bed? What if he wants SF? Where does that fall? I don't want to carrot and no stick....ya kno what happens then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. But turning him away doesn't seem like a good idea either and if he put his arms around me right now I would probably/certainly cry.

Yep. My WW did this, and I eventually figured out that she was baiting me. It wasn't intentional, I don't think, but it was another method of pushing me away and convincing herself that we weren't right for each other. Think about it that way--the alien controlling him is subconsciously trying to push you away by making you angry. How can you respond to that?


SF with a WS is a can of worms around here due to health risks to you. As far as sleeping in the same bed, cuddling, and the like, if he wants them, do it! You shouldn't try to initiate them yourself, though. It may feel uncomfortable to him and push him away.

At this point I would not try to initiate any thing but a release of the blade on a gillotine.

Perhpas I should take a look at the olympics....I'm getting rather proficient at holding my breath!

Yes, you've got it! You say those things here. You can vent all of that stuff out on this board, where people who know EXACTLY what you're talking about will listen and comiserate, and then you go back to your serene plan A and try to save your marriage.

Have you read everything in Bob's Toolkit yet? I bumped it earlier. LOTS of great stuff in there, especially for how to work Plan A.

I would never say those things to him, that's why I vent here and am very grateful for the outlet. Pressure cookers not appropriately vented get tomatoes on the ceiling!

Thank you for your patience while I rant and for your good advice when I shut up. Of course you all understand that if I weren't so darn hurt I woudln't be lashing out so.

HopefulOne-
I STRONGLY disagree with a lot of the advice you are getting here. In my opinion you have become a complete doormat, and it is time for you to take control of your life again. Your son is learning to treat women with a complete lack of respect, and that is NOT acceptable.

After reading through your thread, I am afraid that there are still a lot of un-answered questions.

You have listed a link to your original thread, but it is the wrong link, it only brings us back here, to this thread.
Instead of everyone bouncing all around, could you please re-cap what has happened so far? Who is the OW? How did you find out about the A? What happened when you confronted your WH? Has he been married before? If so, how did that end?

His silence is a form of abuse. Period. Yes, he feels guilty, and yes, he hopes to punish you. And his plan is working. But it is totally un-acceptable. He is controlling you. I suspect that he plans to give you the silent treatment just long enough, to make you submissive, so that in the end you will allow him to carry on with his OW and you will not snoop, and you will not question him.

What do you think has happened in your M, that may have contributed to an environment that left him vulnerable to the advances of another woman? If you were to ask him what you did wrong, what would he say?

Plan A is a good thing – it shows the WH what his life could be like if he would just turn away from his OW, and re-commit to his wife. But plan A cannot go one forever, AND plan A is not about taking his crap, and then smiling and asking for more. Quit apologizing to him for reacting to his bad behavior.

You need to start putting money aside to take care of yourself and your child. This man is running you out of money, and in fact getting you into a hole with finance charges. Start taking steps to protect yourself, for you son sake. I could not believe it when I read your comment that you have never seen his pay check because his “dad says a woman should never know how much he makes” What!? When you read that back – doesn’t that sound ridiculous to you?! He is hiding something – and has been since your wedding day.

I do not know if you are ready for Plan B yet – but I know that you must put a stop to this abuse – and that is what it is. The stress and strain in your house must be horrible for you son. I would strongly suggest that you sit down with this man and tell him that you would like to have an open, honest discussion with him about your M. You want to know what is going on, and where you are both headed. If he is not ready to have that discussion, then perhaps it would be best for him to go stay with a friend, because his current behavior is harmful for you, and your son. You love him, and want to make things work, but if he refuses to communicate with you, and if he is not going to work on building a marriage that is happy, safe, and protected for both of you, then it would be best if he leaves.

This man is a bully. Plain and simple. Stand up to him.

WOF5, Thank you for your comments. I tend to agree with you on many points. Sorry about the loopy link. I didn't know how to make it work and apparently did it incorrectly.

He has always avoided accountability in everything. His EXW used to watch him like a hawk and it drove him crazy....I'm beginning to see why! His theory has always been; "if you trust me then what's the problem" (I can hear your teeth grind!) I am not nearly as wimpy as I sound. I'm trying to plan A etc but I will also not let this nut ruin me. We just got back from a trip so funds are more scarce than usual. And yes he can certainly be a controlling bully. And not speaking to me is one of his tactics, you hit that on the head.

I've been talking to a counselor at church and she has recommended we attend a Dynamic Marriage seminar and referred me to their mentors who I will meet with in the next day or two. I think that will be a deciding factor. She told me that she is completely invested in saving marriages...I'm looking forward to what she has to say about this one.

I came very close to asking him to move out this morning and didn't simply because he will deposit his check tomorrow and I will need that to cover expenses. If he moves, I'm stuck. I have already separated accounts to the point that the one his check goes into links to my household account, in other words I can pull from the joint account but he cannot access mine (which is the one that most of the $ is in) I have already consulted a lawyer, talked with the police and can put a restraining order on him if necessary. Please know that if I thought he would hurt me he wouldn't be here....I was just covering all the bases.

I'm responding to your post out of order here....what happened to my marriage. We are both in our 40's and were very independent people when we got together. We spend far too much time apart. When I confront him with this he replies that he doesn't want to "be up under anyone all of the time" which to some small degree I understand but not to the extent that it currently is. This will need to change and I know it.

I doubt he has a clue that we are at this point. He thinks that he will give me the silent treatment and I'll be sad and when he starts talking again everything will be ok....it won't. And perhaps I'm wrong, he may understand the gravity of this situation. This is definitely a different place than we have ever been before.

OW. He has friends that are women, he teaches skating and they tell him all their woes, he is a good listener and wise with his advice. I don't think he realizes how much power he gives them when he allows those personal conversations without me. I guess he knows now.

I'm aware that we have many many issues to deal with.I often wonder if there are simply too many for him to manage and if he would prefer to take the easy route and end this, we have a lot of work ahead to make this succeed. I often wonder the same thing...if the work would be worth it. I'll leave that one in God's hands. I pray a great deal.

My DS and I have a marvelous relationship and talk about everything. My H is gone a lot so the tension is at a minimum during the week....and since this just happened we are at a heightened pitch but things are settling down. All h*!! will break loose I'm sure when I give him the list of conditions for reconciliation like: I see his paycheck; if I check the cell phone records...oh well....he has proven he can't be trusted and I don't feel like being played; I get the pin code to the cell so if I want to check messages I can. We go to MC and/or the Dynamic Marriage seminar and church.

After all of that. I'm here because I love him. I would like to see this work. I am definitely not a door mat so I work quietly behind the scenes making sure that all of my ducks are in a row so my next steps will be sure and strong, especially if they will be independent.

I'm working on setting goals for myself, he and I had been working with a mentor in goal setting, determining your life purpose, values etc.Part of the process is to read over all the goals each day...that requires speaking to each other so since this malarkey happened I'm working on all of it alone. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best! It is in God's hands now as am I. And I know that no matter what happens my son and I will be ok. I'm sad sometimes and angry sometimes and bounce around in all the emotions but also am certain that no matter the outcome it will be God's will.

I appreciate your gutsy approach. Thank you.

He got up this morning and went to work without saying a word as usual. He has slept in the basement like a mushroom (perhaps I should be loving and fertilize....) for the last 5 nights. He won't talk with me. He is cavalier with money still. I have caught him in so many lies that I'm beginning to wonder if this is worth it. I need to get some sleep, peace etc and it isn't happening in this state of suspension. What now?

I really DON’T feel qualified to give advice, but your posts seem to speak to me, so I will do the best I can.

My new H went through a time when he would use the silent treatment on me. It was very foreign to me. My Ex did a lot of mentally horrible things – but not the silent treatment. So when my new H did this – soon after our wedding – I was totally in shock.

So I went through a few silent episodes and could see a pattern forming. We would disagree about something, he would clam up. Sometimes 24 hours – at the most 4 days. I would be kind, loving, occasionally extending an olive branch. I would ask questions to see if he was speaking yet. When I finally would reach my limit I would cry, and ask what we could do to mend things. Then he would apologize for making me sad, and we would have a few days of extra loving, caring type behavior. Each time I would think, “Ok, he knows how hurtful this is, and he will stop” but then it would happen again. After awhile I started to feel like “Its ok, he will give me the silent treatment, but after it ends I will have a great week! He will treat me like a queen again”

That is when I knew it HAD to stop! I was allowing him to treat me like crap, because then he would go to the other extreme and treat me like a Queen. Heck, I even started to get gifts. I KNEW that was wrong. So the next time he gave me the silent treatment I blew up at him. I ripped him up one side and down the other. Told him I would not tolerate this any longer. That we both agreed, before we got married, that we wanted a happy, loving M, for the rest of our lives. But this was no way to get it. I was tired of being treated with no respect, I was tired of walking on eggshells around him, and I was tired of my boys living in a home where they never knew what to expect when they walked in the door. I told him that I loved him – but that was not enough. I would not allow him to bully me any longer.

And there was a huge change after that. Not overnight. He was still quiet that night. But I think my explosion made him really open his eyes. I think that he had started the silent treatment pattern in his first M, and probably did not intend to start it again, but he did. I think he just did not know how else to cope with disagreements in M. Since then we have attended the Love and Respect seminar, which was helpful. And counseling, which was also helpful. But it was not an overnight change. Gradually the moodiness happened less and less. And I had a few more blow ups with him. I think that what made the difference for us, frankly, was me finally standing up for myself, and pushing back. I have always been a strong person, and usually wouldn’t take that sort of behavior from anyone. But I think I was scared of failing at my 2nd M, so I didn’t stick up for myself, out of fear. I remember one time at a counseling session, when the counselor told me that I need to stick up for myself more often. My new H was shocked by that – he said “my wife knows how to stick up for herself just fine” and I looked at him and said “but not with you. I have allowed you tot treat me like crap” that was a turning point for us.

I am not sure what advice I have for you, based on my experience, except to say: stick up for yourself. I think you will shock him. Lay down the law, and stick to it. And if he wants to walk out – then be ready to let him. Get all your affairs in order so that when if he does want to leave, you will be prepared. I understand your need to give it a day to get his paycheck into the bank. That is fine, you are getting your affairs in order.
But you need to stop this soon. Do not put things off. He needs to know that the silent treatment is no longer acceptable. Pick your time and day to confront him – get your darling son out of the house, and hand him his list. You mention counseling with your church – if he agrees to that, I would feel very good about your situation.

You need to get yourself ready to say “I will not allow you to treat me with such disrespect any longer. YOU were having an A, not me. If I snooped, oh well. You want me to trust you – then quit carrying on with OW.”

Tell me more about the A itself. How did you find out, what was actually going on, and is he still talking to her?

My H usually clams up because if he talks he will say somthing he regrets....so in an odd kind of way I respect the fact that he doesn't want to fly off the handle. I don't even see it as a slient treatments as much as cooling off. This may have devoloved into the former but then again he is really angry now and trying to figure out what to do next.

I noticed a LOT of calls on the cell phone bill and did some checking. If it is not a PA it is probably an EA, and at the very least inappropriate. They both claim to be trying to save her marriage....I talked to her H, he wants nothing to do with her so that blows that story. I also mentioned to her that if she talked to her H as much as she talks to mine she would probably have a very happy marriage and so would I. I let all of the cats out of the bag on Saturday, talked to OW, OWH and H. Fun day!

I'm already prepared to do as you say. I'm not going to be loud or anything...just put my foot down and if he doesn't accept that....that is his decision. I expect that he will stubborn up on me and leave for a while...or not. First thing I'm going to do is ask God to direct my next steps and soften my H's heart.

Please pray for us.

He has done some damage to the checking account. We talked briefly about it. He still won't talk to me about anything else. I told him that I love him and really want this marriage to work but we will need tools that we currently do no possess for that to happen. I asked if he would go to this crisis marriage weekend with me, he said he would not even consider it. I asked him if he would go to counseling, he said that he has done that. I told him that he didn't go with me and we definitely need the help, he just ignored me. I told him that this isn't working either. We both just get mad and frustrated and hurt then go around again. At some point we have to learn to work together. So we are back to the beginning.

This is usually 'our' night. I make something yummy and we curl up on the couch and watch a movie. But he is sitting there with his chin in his hands and says he doesn't want to talk to me, leave him alone.

This is ridiculous! How on earth and now what???? I mentioned that we still had a number of issues to discuss, he just ignored me. I'm probably doing everything wrong, patience is a virtue....unfortunately not one of mine.

I did ask him earlier when we were on the phone and I was trying to talk to him if he even wanted to be married, he said that he would stay married but did not want to talk.

He got mad at me for asking so many questions, says I do that all the time. I told him I wouldn't ask so much if he would just give ma a straight answer....I made a point of not commenting about the lies I caught him in....we're just going around and around.

I know some of you have gone through this for a long time, how on earth do you do it?

Also, nothing has been resolved. By the time he finally wants to talk again, we will be in the same boat. So then what? I'll bring up the junk that got us here and we'll be back in the same boat.

Again. Is this worth it? And what do I do now. He stays downstairs and won't speak to me. I don't know how to do this!

How long do I just let him ignore me and live a separate life in the basement? How do I get my husband back?

I would begin separating your finances if it is possible. You will need to do that anyway if you get to Plan B.

Four days of not talking is NOT cooling down, it is punishing.

The finances were already somewhat separated. I'm the financier in the M, he is more caviler with resources so early on we got two checking accounts, one he puts his check in and I can access for expenses, and one my check is auto deposited in which I pay bills with and he has no access to. He doesn't let me see his paycheck and he squirrels away money, says he has a debt on the side, don't ask about it, it doesn't concern me and just drop it.

How do we get to a place of openness and accountability? I have never met anyone so secretive. I am not a snoopy person but when someone never just answers a question the suspicions just fly!