Covenant marraiges are offered in several states and are more than just a religious document. You would have to check to see if your state has passed a law for a covenent marriage license. In states that have them, a covenent marriage binds the marriage in such a way that a no fault divorce will not be granted. Divorce can only be granted for the usual "causes" such as adultery, abuse, or I think also in cases of where the spouse gets convicted of a crime, etc. There was a fairly strong movement to get them adopted into state legislators a few years back but it seems to have died down and gone away - or at least you don't hear much about it anymore. I don't know how many states ever actually passed the laws but I do remember reading that a number were 'considering' them.

Convenant marriage licenses are stricly voluntary and the states that offer them also offer the traditional (generic, available everywhere) marriage license. I think they're pretty new so I don't know what happens if you had a convenent marriage in one state then moved to another state which didn't have them and tried to divorce.

I think covenent marriages are a great idea and I hope more states adopt them. Let people make the choice for what kind of marriage they want to sign up for - if nothing else, if you are dead set on having one and your future spouse won't agree, it might give you some information about the level of committment your spouse considers marriage to be.

Mys

edited to add:

I think one real pro for covenant marriages is that they are sort of the opposite of a pre-nuptual agreement. A pre-nup describes what happens if/when you divorce. A covenent marraige committment describes your agreement to not consider divorce without compelling reasons. It allows people to opt in to the "old style" marriages where they were always assumed to be for life unless something dire happened (and before no fault divorce).

I don't think they should be mandatory - but I think they're a great option for like minded people to find like minded people.

Thank you very much for the info Mys. I'll check into it.

I was reading this book last nite....

This part got my highlighter out .... because I think I need to change some of my thinking !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quoting Dr Harley

"Have you ever heard someone say, 'You can't please everyone'? It seems that today most people believe that you can't really please anyone but yourself. Thay argue that true happiness comes from within, not from other people, and that each person should be responsible for his own happiness. This belief came into its own during the 1960s and '70s when we all were encouraged to take better care of ourselves and let each other take care of themselves. Whenever I hear that point of view, I cringe because I know where it leads -- to unapologetic selfish behavior. And in marriage, that kind of behavior generally leads to divorce.

Deep down we all know that we can make others happy -- we've all done it. And we can also make others miserable if we're not careful. "

Lately, there has been a trend on the forum to tell each other "Do what makes you happy" .... and sometimes (not always) that means leaving the dream of making your spouse happy .... in the dust <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Intimate emotional needs

Harley says these 4 ENs can deposit so many love units that they are usually responsible for triggering romantic love

[color:"blue"]for most men

sexual fulfillment (SF)
recreational companionship (RC)[/color]

[color:"purple"]for most women

intimate conversation (IC)
affection (A) [/color]

Harley says:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" When all four of those needs are met regularly in marriage, both the husband and wife are very happy -- romantic love is almost guaranteed."

What I don't get about this is that even the good Dr. has said he would divorce if there was an infidelity in his M. He also said in the video ML posted here that when someone comes to him and says they want a divorce, he is righ there with them. So, why is that when someone puts in a lengthy effort at recovery that may not fit into the exact mold of MB...like two years for plan B...and THEN decide to either call it quits or adjust to something more comfortable for them, do they get a rough ride here.
You know Pep, you have been quick to point out that I do not live in a recovered M. You are right The FACT is that I forgave an affair while married and stayed married until she strayed again. You have not been down the divorce path...sometimes it is the best option... not always, but at times it is.
I support a person not wasting years of their life on someone that is showing no value as a partner. If that changes or the person still wants things to work out, I truly would wish them all the best. But I will also wish them all the best if they decide to get off the roller coaster that they never asked to ride on in the first place.
Dr. Harley offers an approach that helps a lot of people...not everyone but many. A perfect plan does not mean a marriage can or will be recovered (or should be for that matter). I think if someone here tries it the MB way and it doesn't work out, that they should still get support here from people that have come to care about their situations. I am okay with offering support in any way that a poster needs it... so long as I believe it is not harmful to them.
I have said many times and will say again, in my opinion there are things a lot more important than a marriage.

Just my 2 cents about why I might be on the other side of that fence at times.

About the topic of
intimate conversation
Dr Harley says:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Ordinary conversation is an emotional need that can ethically be met by anyone. But when conversation is intimate, with someone of the opposite sex, it's likely to lead to a romantic relationship. That's why I advise married couples to limit their intimate conversations to each other."

Yes.

I've become aware of my daughter's insipid fairytales and cartoons. The answer to almost every crisis: Follow your heart! Trust your feelings!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then I think of all the people who landed on these boards because of such drivel.

I think I'll let her go back to blowing things up with her brothers on video games...

I have never seen anyone do that, but I may have missed it. Why not address that question to the person directly? I have never seen anyone cajoled or made to feel bad because they decided to just give up. I sure don't do that. But like I said, you would have to ask the person directly because I sure can't speak for them.

more on intimate conversation

friends of IC

1. understand each other

investigate by asking personal questions

how are you feeling?
what are you thinking?
what have you been doing?
what are you planning?
what's been bothering you?

inform each other by answering these questions honestly

2. discuss each other's favorite topics

educate yourself in these topics to make your conversations interesting for both of you

3. provide balance

each should talk and listen about the same amount of time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

don't interrupt each other
don't let your spouse do all the talking

mutual and bilateral is what intimate conversation looks like

4. give each other undivided attention

look into each other's eyes
avoid distractions

and even more on intimate conversation

the "enemies"

1. demands
2. disrespectful judgements
3. angry outbursts
4. dwelling on mistakes

medc ~

There are right reasons and wrong reasons to take an action.

There are people on these boards who earned their divorces.

Those who get a "rough ride" as you put it, have not earned their get out of jail free card. Some people take longer than others to learn what they need to learn.

Sometimes, there really is NO marriage to save. Sometimes, it really is all the other person's fault. But that is VERY RARE. In general, we all played a role in the downfall of our marriages.

I imagine that you would agree that you would like to avoid making those mistakes in the future, with a future partner, right?

If you don't spend the time to self reflect and learn the life lesson, you are doomed to repeat it, over and over and over...

I have a theory that people with a string of broken marriages behind them have a very small capacity for self reflection.

There is no reason to rush through a divorce. It takes time to heal, and the confidence of knowing that you did EVERYTHING you could to save it goes a long way to future peace of mind..

there are no shortcuts to recovery, marital or personal

BR



This is the message in Star Wars too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR... I agree with most of your post. However, sometimes prolonging a divorce is just a waste of time. Sometimes a spouse is not worth the effort that is wasted on them. I have seen people waste years on people that were never worthy of the time they received. I have never seen a WS given up on too quickly. A WS is 100% responsible for their actions...not the condition of the marriage prior to the affair.

And the mantra of TEENAGE GIRLS and GIRLYMEN!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

trust your feelings because "feelings don't lie"

BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel

I love girly men ... great shopping companions

medc ~ you see it as time wasted on a dirty rotten WS.

I see it as time invested in the BS.

The WS just doesn't matter - they babble from a script, and who knows if they'll come home and straighten up. To me, discussion about the WS (expect for the newly betrayed) is just a gawd awful distraction that does not help the BS.

To me, wasted time is time spent trying to analyze the WS. Wasted time is time spent trying to manipulate, appease, cajole, and wear down an WS.

When a BS files for divorce before that BS is ready, it is more of the above. Manipulation, game playing, and lots of drama.

When a BS files for divorce because the BS has grown, matured, grieved, and is ready to move on....THEN I personally will fully support that.

The problem is, most BSes skip the whole self-reflection thing. They show up looking for the quick fix and disappear when they don't get a response that helps them get their WS under control.

...and waitresses! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

:shaking index finger: at BAD Mel