I am standing back waiting for the throwback from this one...but you asked and I am just being honest...

Not gonna tell OWH. This guy is a serial cheater and that has been verified by me from a reliable person who has worked with OW and seen proof- she (OW) is actually denying it. If I thought this guy was a loving husband who cared about his wife, I would do so.

See this is where MoveForward's idea about talking to the boss about not attending company functions would come in VERY handy...I think the boss ought to be "in the loop" on this...I KNOW that sucks, but most consequences to poor life decisions do-Hey, I'm a FWS, I promise you that I get that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, letting OWH know is another great idea...A very important one too...

jlashley, I am not BobPure, but I do know him to be a very compassionate and helpful poster around here...Without a doubt I can say that his intent was not to harm you in any way...

It sounds as though your husband is doing a lot of positive things towards recovery...I'm so glad to hear that...I'm assuming that he reads here, yes? I would encourage him to post if he has questions, yes, this place can be BRUTAL on fogbound WS', but also VERY eye-opening and helpful...It doesn't sound like your FWH is too fogbound at this point...It's all a matter of perspective...He sounds like the kind of man that could take anything handed to him here and that he could also become a great asset around these parts...I hope he will post...I know that Mr. W and I would welcome him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Well, I will certainly share that with him as soon as he gets here. I will encourage him to post, although his first post (written by me, spoken by him) didn't go over too well...the original FWH post.

He has read what I have printed off which has been just about the whole site <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> in addition to any posts that pertain to us have been literally about us. He has made sense of a lot just by the posts so MB has helped us tremendously so far.

He doesn't mind working in the trenches, just needs to find one that's hiring! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree that you and your H seem to be "ahead" of lots of other here. Your H is helping where and when he can such as not going to the co funtions and telling the boss.

You said that you feel like your in a rut. Why do you feel that way? What makes you feel that way?

jlashley...

It's not your right to decide if OWH is the "kind of person" who gets the truth about his life...You see that, right? What if someone had decided that for you? Not fair, eh? I could argue all sorts of dynamics about his waywardness and right to know, but that really is pointless, because the fact remains that he DOES have a right to the TRUTH about his life...AND it could very well help your own situation...I don't see the problem...

When will you and your FWH tell him?

Mrs. W

P.S. NOW, you're gonna want to kick my heiney! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JA:

Not telling the OWH in that case? Just might help save thier M. Sauce for the goose, and gander, you know.

But, JA, you CAN do it your WAY.

And it might work.

You can do it using the MB PLAN.

And that might work.

But which is a PLAN?

Ok? Stick around. Continue posting. Do it your WAY. You will soon move to our WAY.

You might be able to get there without using all aspects of the MB PLAN.

And we are relying on your WH to fully sign up. (Remember That!)

Remember, every time you deviate from the PLAN, the road is tougher. But make that a choice, too travel the more difficult road? Yours to make.

Some of this is more learning on your part. That's ok. You will grow, we will too. We do want to shortcut some of this learning curve for you.

But the goal is to save your M.

You have to live each day with your sitch. We are only trying to provide information about a plan that has worked for many here.

OK?

LG

Not sure. I guess just because we feel like we are trying hard and then I see what is told by the Harley's and feel like I am back at square one.

JL,
I agree that you need to tell the OWH. It may be the thing that makes the difference in your recovery.

I don't know if I would call it square one. Your H DID write a NC letter and he is learning how to act around women such as what to talk about and not to talk about. That is something. Your H reads the stuff you print out. That is good.

I think as long as you two keep moving toward the M and MB ideas that in time his job will work it's self out.

PS: Mrs W is the one who talked me into call the OMW in my sitch. Glad I did. Went much better than I thought it would and we even had lunch together to compare notes. Thanks Mrs W.

M2L-

Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad that your calling the OMW worked for you. Maybe I'll get up the courage to do the same.

I didn't realize that M2L...You are most welcome of course!!! Thank you too, you routinely CRACK ME UP around here...I'm always referring Mr. W to something or other that you've posted and we both find you hilarious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

jlashley...

Courage to tell OWH? What is it that you are afraid of? Let us walk you through it...Most fears are irrational ones on that front...My parents used to always tell me that "the dread is worse than the duty"...I believe that to be true...

Mrs. W

Afraid of? Let me see...that he will hunt me down and hurt me...hurt OW (physically- I want her to pay but not like that), find my H and hurt him...I don't know this man from Adam. I can't ASSUME he is a rational human being and I would rather ASSUME the worst than the best at this point. I stay home with my kids. My WH is over an hour away. This guy doesn't work during the day and lives 15 minutes from me and I don't know how mad this would make him and how he would retaliate...

I definitely think that fear of him hurting YOU, THE OTHER VICTIM, is irrational...Doesn't make sense at all...

Hurt OW physically-Hmmm...doubtful, but that is and was HER risk...One that she assumed when she decided to cross the line with your husband...

Find your husband and hurt him...Ok, it's possible that your husband could get an [censored] whoopin' from OWH...not likely, but possible...Again, that is the risk that your husband naturally assumed when he crossed the line with another man's wife...In light of what you are saying about OWH's own waywardness, again, I think this is unlikely and the risk does NOT outweigh the benefits of exposure...Telling OWH has the potential to help save TWO marriages...keeps the infidels apart AND could end the job hunt for your husband...I think that is worth a possible [censored] whoopin' don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Your hubby's a big boy...I have no doubt that he could handle himself...Yanno, if your husband would be willing to man up and CONFESS and APOLOGIZE to OWH's, I think it's much more likely that OWH wouldn't come after him at all...Wouldn't you respect your husband MORE if he were to do that?

jlashley, I believe wholeheartedly that your fears aren't based in reality on this...I think instead you and your husband would breathe a great sigh of relief after this was over...No one ever regrets doing the right thing afterall...

Mrs. W

HA! Yes and up until recently I would have welcomed an [censored] whoopin! And there are days still where that would make me feel a whole lot better...especially if I could do it myself. I told WH that after OW reply to his NC email, I was ready to go scrappy [censored] whoopin on OW! I have given birth...twice...she has not. I have quite an advantage if I say so myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I really will pray about this and consider it. It just changes the dynamics of this so much and I am still reeling from the shock of the abruptly sent NC email. Is it standard to call or write these in? Would something in writing be used against me (as in her showing up at my house with letter in hand asking me to explain myself? I don't do in person conflict real well) as opposed to a phone call? From what I know, he works at a local horse racing track and only works the nights where as I know the hours she works???

Jlash,
I am very glad to hear about the "nice" guy vs the "good" guy. I am not exactly sure how you are operationalizing these terms, but I like the info you gave about your H learning how to put you and family first always. This is something my H has struggled with but has improved a lot.

Since I could tell that "no contact" is not a guarantee for you and your H at present, my concern was: are you feeling scared or anxious about potential contact and how is your H doing figuring out why he let down his boundaries to have the EA. It sounds like the "nice" vs "good" is something he is working on in the boundary area.

It also sounds like you have set up some rules about reducing contact to a rare possibility and of your H sharing with you any potential contact or actual contact.

That brings me to my next question-When there is potential contact or if there is actual contact, how are you going to feel or how has it made you feel. For example, with the possibility of your H attending that employee event, were you anxious and scared? Did you end up LBing your H or did it hurt intimacy? (not just SF but a feeling of connectedness).

Is your H able to call you during the workday or e-mail you? Does this help you feel more like you are getting the 15 hours in? How about late evenings when the kids are down--can you take turns setting up a special get-together for the two of you? Nothing huge, just a candle, chocolate and a card or a little intimacy building game. Or blindfolding and feeding him something, or asking him to put a favorite perfume on you in certain places or his cologne on him in places. Just something that one of you had to take time to think about and create something special for the two of you.

Again, since there is still potential for contact, you might want to make sure you both have your ducks in a row and policy of joint agreement on how you will both handle it. I worry most about your level of anger/fear and adrenaline that can come out of the experience.

Keep him thinking about the boundary issue. I remember seeing red flags when I read his no contact letter other than the ones you mentioned. When I have time, I will go back and read it and comment. Maybe the "nice" vs "good" guy will take care of the flags I saw. My FWH's no contact letter was also imperfect. It got the job done and his OW did her own "wah, wah, wah" also. But we both learned a bit about his vulnerabilities from that NC letter. I also realized that I felt hurt by a couple of the statements he put in it but was not well versed in MB principals at the time the letter went out and held my tongue about the hurts. I knew shortly after it went out that I should have share my feelings with him as he showed me the letter before he sent it and would have gladly made the changes that would have made me feel better. The NC letter did the job, but it also taught us after the fact a little bit about our communication frailties.
Lake

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You have me wiping tears of laughter from eyes here!!! I like spunky women, I be one of those myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Personally, I like a phone call better, but either will work...Pepperband's husband confessed and apologized to the OWH...I've read her write that she could not have respected her husband otherwise...If I were you, I'd ask for her input...I think she is very wise...I also think it smart to seek out what you want here-a recovered marriage-and ask those people in them for advice on how they handled different aspects of their recovery...

Personally, in our situation, the OM was not married...This was not something that we faced in our recovery...However, OMs ex-wife (she was his ex for one year before he contacted me), did call me and ask why her DD5 was asking questions about me...I was COMPLETELY honest with her (even though she divorced OM under suspicion of her own adultery-see we don't get to decide whether someone gets the truth about something that affects their life based on what we think or have heard about their character)...I told her how very wrong that what I had done was and I apologized for ever having her dd anywhere near a situation that screwed up...I did reassure her that nothing physical ever happened in front of her dd, but further acknowledged that that made no difference really, as a child should NEVER be exposed to an adulterous relationship on any level-She certainly seemed to appreciate my honesty...There was some backlash...OM did contact us-through email, all po'ed that I'd been honest...TOUGH TOENAILS...Wasn't my job to protect him from the consequences of his own choices-I took responsibility for my own...Mr. W let him know in no uncertain terms NEVER to contact us again...He hasn't! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I will say prayers for you too...I really want what is right for you...

Mrs. W

Lake,

I got the "nice" vs "good" from Dr. Dobson. There was just a radio broadcast on it and my mentor from church told me about it. It fits him to a "T". He tries to make everyone happy and didn't realize he was completely ignoring his family in the process. He is the guy who will stop on the side of the road for anyone, never say "no" etc., etc, I think you get the picture? Hearing this broadcast last night online was a big eye opener for him and myself as well as we always knew he could never prioritize his time right but didn't have a clue how to fix it. This will help immensely. I am buying the book for him tomorrow...it's called "No More Christian Nice Guy".

As far as how I feel about potential contact, well, I am okay with how he wants to deal with it, but I know that A's are addictions and I am not sure how he will deal with it. Everything is all good sometimes until it's thrown at you. That is why we have discussed what a POJA would be for this. He knows now after counseling yesterday that he needs basically to have NC with any female unless it's a business conversation. I was a wreck with that event that just occurred. Basically because NC had not been attempted at that point. He made the decision a month ago not to go and it came down to that same day where he made sure with his employer that it would not cost him his job if he didn't go and it has not. That night would have been extremely difficult for me. Open bar and lonely women don't mix!

He is able to call/email occasionally. I can email and he will normally respond. If he does not, I know it's because he is busy. He always calls on his way home and we talk til we lose signal...he has to cross a mountain.

We do put the kids down and then turn off all annoyances...tv, phone, computer...etc., etc...and talk mostly which can/cannot lead to SF. We have had a rough sex life from the get go. I have endometriosis which was causing alot of pain, plus we weren't meeting the EN's so I felt obligated. I have not felt obligated in over a month now and it's gone to a whole new level for us.

It's right of you to worry about my anger/fear level. I have great insecurities and this was the one thing I feared most when I got married. I tried so hard to protect myself from it by distancing myself from him that I led him right to the water- and he chose to sip...

Thanks Lake...

I am glad that I could add some laughter to your day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> As a young teenager, I was always afraid of being beaten up but something about birthin babies changed that in me!

I guess, I think it should be WH responsibility to tell OWH. After all, why should I put myself in that position? I understand that OWH should be told, I guess I just feel that they got themselves into this mess and they should get out of it.

I just don't know either one of them at all. I met OW once at a function right after WH started working there and she didn't seem overly friendly to me from the get go so right then and there should have told me something. She was already jealous of my beautiful self...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The source from WH's workplace that told WH about OW doing this before has said that the last time she did this, after the OM left the company (for reasons I don't know) she whined for a while and then went on. I will try to find out under what pretense OM left and see if that holds any clues to our future possibility of contact with OW.

LG:

Sorry I did not reply to your post. I just read all the posts to WH and didn't even realize yours was there until I read it just now.

Thank you for your words. I too hope that I can be a full fledged MBer one day. I know that this will take time, patience is not one of my virtues and I know better than to pray for it...I know Job well!

I just wanted to thank you and apologize for missing your post...Thanks again...J

And obviously in the MB book I don't value my marriage enough to be "inconvenienced".

Nobody is judging you. Its a valid, adult decision for both of you to stay where you are. It IS an "inconvenience" to change jobs, move house or whatever, but Dr. Harley prescribes EXTREME MEASURES in securing no contact for ever.

Any contact with the OP can fire up old anti-marriage feelings.

If you value your current practical life more than the risk of contact it is a valid choice for you. I meant no patronisation or insult.

If it were just the two of us, I would consider living in my car, but it's not.

Why is the only alternative to the status quo living in a car ?I don't understand.

Squid quit her role as chief referee and we looked to find a new role for her. She is training to be a driving instructor now, and that will replace both the emotional and financial contributions of her old refereeing role in a way that won't risk violating NC.

Look at all the options. There may be a compromise for you.

So excuses or no excuses, I will again refrain from posting unless it's to answer a question instead of asking one and not to reply to what i do and don't value in MBers eyes because if not doing what is suggested, recovery cannot start and I will just be upset with the responses otherwise.


I think if you do this you will miss out on some very useful information from the smart folks on these boards.

BTW those of us who advocate Dr Harleys's Marriagebuilders techniques do so becuse they have worked in our own marriages and in thousands of others. There are surely many other ways to behave when faced with an affair, but I advocate MB because it works so often. Its not a religion or a mandate.

The fastest horse doesn;t always win, but its the one you should bet on IMO.

I am sorry to have made you angry or upset. That wasn't my intention at all.

Please study and apply MB. Your situation does look very hopeful !