Well Pep, I finally got through those threads. Lots to ponder and work on.

Gonna sleep on all that, probably take some more time to re-read again tomorrow and focus on a few things to work on.

I really appreciate your support - thanks for taking the time for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A lot of these ideals are just plain good for daily life - no matter who we encounter. Some are specific to marriage, but a lot of stuff, such as negotiating etc., is really handy in other life situations. Gotta keep on growing!

JinGA

Another new day. I slept on all the info I digested yesterday, but I still can't resolve the conflict we just went through, within the context of POJA, and I have some questions.

While I'm open to negotiating almost anything, the matter of XH taking the kids on a long road trip to see GF is not negotiable for me. They didn't want to see GF, and I have saftey concerns - length of the trip, age and condition of his car, to some extent his driving style (more specifically, being pumped up on energy drinks while driving sleepy)... in the end I could not just "give in" to those demands and risk my kids. Period.

I did offer alternatives - taking the kids to home/family (shorter trip, happier destination for the kids, etc.)

However for XH these were not options as he's set in going to see GF.

We did agree that if he has other vacation time and it fits with the kids' schedules (there are things like band camp that neither of us have control over) - we both agreed enthusiastically that he can do that - no problems here.

In the article on POJA, Dr. Harley suggests that people with addictions can not fulfill POJA. Would it be a stretch to suggest that XH's relationship with GF is an addiction? (I think it does). If that is indeed the case, then the likelihood of finding a suitable solution to the problem that was at hand, would, by definition, be impossible. Since I had the final say, I made the decision unilaterally, and based on all the information I have, I believe it was the right decision and I'm sticking with it.

If XH wasn't so fixated on GF, he may have been open to choosing other options for his vacation time, that would have been mutually agreeable insofar as the appropriateness of the destination and distance etc. Since his end of the negotiation was set in stone from the beginning, that negotiation was doomed to failure.

There isn't much I won't wiggle on - but the safety and security of my kids (emotionally as well as physically) are things I won't wiggle on - and under normal circumstances, neither would he. However, he's got those goggles on, so IMO, there could not possibly have been a middle ground here.

Last year when the circumstances were somewhat similar, XH wanted to take the kids on one leg of his road trip and leave them off with family, with no firm plan as to how to get them home again (he and GF were not returning the same way). Again - that wasn't going to fly with me. I offered a solution of each of us paying 1/4 of the kids' airfare (myself, himself, his parents and my Mom) as a possible solution that would have benefited everyone, without causing any involved party a huge financial hardship. I don't even know if he put that offer on the table to his parents, but my Mom had suggested it, I was willing. He never responded.

So yes, *I* can negotiate under the terms of POJA, and having read the ground rules, I can certainly apply them. After the latest communications with XH (after the AO about the no-go on the road trip), he's shown that he can do the same.

Thoughts?

JinGA

I'm going to be busy this AM.

You're good at working stuff out on your own I noticed.

I'm trying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes I need a push in the right direction, or reassurance that I am on the right track.

I have been known to veer sharply off-course though, and that's why I *ask*. Sometimes fumbling around on my own gets me into a huge mess - and I've learned a few things from being in huge messes.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll take your comment as an affirmation that I've pretty much got that issue correct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trying to be a good student here...

JinGA

for purposes of this discussion, I'd say

YES - a stretch

UNLESS your XH has a history of other addictive behaviors (which I think is not the case)

ONE way to Plan A is to admire H by proxy

start saying really wonderful things about him to the biggest gossips you know

also

do something sweet & romantic anonymously - leave a love note on his car - a book mailed to him with no return address - concert/sports tickets left in his pocket - you get the idea

do this in clever ways
without claiming "I did it!"

sooner or later, he may ask you

then own up "I love doing things for you. It pleases me."

He does have a history of addictions. Most of his addictive behaviors were fueled by his undiagnosed/untreated depression. Porn, recreational drugs.

Once he got treatment for the depression, he kicked the weed (in my D decree I can spring a random drug test on him in order to allow visitation). I don't test often - but he's been clean ever since the crap hit the fan when I told him he'd have to get clean if he wanted unsupervised visits with the kids (2+ years ago). At that time he called me every name in the book - and I told him if I was imagining things, take a test and make a fool out of me.

6 weeks later, he asked me to test him - clean.

At some point around that time he told me he'd kicked the porn habit too. He'd been to a therapist. He told me he couldn't explain why he did the porn, but it was something he was very ashamed of, and that he'd stopped.

Now I don't know if he's KEPT away from porn - that would be a big subject of discussion if we ever got towards a R. However when we talked to the kids about internet usage, and more specifically about DS's little porn exploration, the convo I had with XH about what he'd talked to DS about, XH told me how he'd explained to DS that using porn can lead to porn addiction, which can also lead to drug addiction. Interesting - because when he was in denial about it he thought it was "no big deal".

Now he could be doing a "Do as I say, not as I do" but when he and I discussed his talk with DS, he sounded pretty convincing to me about it - like he was acknowledging how it had affected him. Time may tell if he was being a hypocrite or not - but I'm inclined to believe that he meant what he said.

As for the admiration by proxy - already doing that. If a customer notices the rock work in our big tank, I'll say, "Oh yes, XH did that - didn't he do a nice job?" And whenever possible I try to do this while XH is in earshot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for gifts/niceties anonymously - he might think I'm stalking him LOL! But I get what you mean, and I'm sure I can think of something appropriate - but that will wait until after he comes home from the vacation I think. He may need a 'pick me up' a bit more upon his return.

I can totally see how he may be addicted to his relationship with this woman. If you wrote down many of his behaviors toward/for her, and substituted "drugs" or "alcohol" it would be a fit.

JinGA

be certain you've figured out his top ENs

and start to fill his lovebank

Well appreciation was one thing he always said he didn't get enough of in the M - that's the top one that always springs to mind, so each day when he comes in to help, I *thank* him before he leaves. I either say, "Thank you" or "I appreciate it." I put a few appreciation statements into that email exchange I had too.

I always did express appreciation in the M - because I truly appreciate things he does - but he usually blows it off. Sometimes I think he doesn't want to hear it - even in the M he'd blow it off when I thanked him for something. Makes no sense.

If you have another minute - check out my "Yikes" thread... the plot is getting thicker <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I'd say another high-on-the-list need for him is SF. We haven't gone there in 3 years now. It might even be his top need. That's not going to happen right now - particularly if GF is still in the picture - and at the risk of being crass, I wouldn't do that with him until AFTER he got checked by a doctor. I don't think he has had more than GF as a partner since we split, but who knows how many she has had?

Ugh - lots going on right now... I need to pull the plug on my brain for a bit. Worry is a useless emotion.

JinGA

Here's a POJA question for you...

XH and I negotiated an arrangement for Saturday.. he's going to cover for me at the shop, so the kids and I can go someplace together.

His stipulations were that he have help (we have a part-time guy that comes in but sometimes on Saturdays his other job needs him), and that another condition be met.

I've met the other condition (administrative thing - I'm on it) but last night my helper called to say he could not come in on Saturday.

I have to email XH this morning to advise him of this.

Here's my question - XH knows that the help may not have been available...but he agreed anyway.

When I let him know that the help won't be there - *should* I offer to cancel my outing to work?

In the spirit of avoiding sacrifice - if he works alone, he *may* either embrace it enthusiastically, or he may balk because he has to work alone (something I do every weekday, BTW - except the few minutes to an hour or so he usually spends passing through)...

If I cancel my outing, I am making a sacrifice to keep the peace with him.

No, we don't have anybody else who can come in to help.

It's not unreasonable to expect him to work alone, and I expect he'll call me 50 times with questions... but I will be available for "phone support" for him.

Trying my best to apply POJA in all circumstances (the vacation issue notwithstanding) - and I believe he's receptive to POJA without really being aware of its structure.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this appreciated.

He may just tell me to go with his blessing, but I want to be prepared if he balks at it. I don't really want to sacrifice - but if it's a case of one situation or the other - one of us has to give a bit. IMO his working alone is the *lesser* sacrifice - but he may not see it that way.

Hoping to hear your input before I tackle this in a few hours.

And I might be making much ado about nothing... he may just say go for it, in which case I will be *very* appreciative.

JinGA

As I ponder... I may have figured out my own solution <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes it just helps to write it down...

We work together on weekends. I was totally bummed when XH didn't take the kids shopping for Mother's Day or give me the Sunday off to spend with the kids. He just doesn't think of things like that sometimes - and I didn't ask.

Anyway... as to dealing with this weekend... I was thinking of letting him know what's going on for Saturday (no help, but I'll be available by phone - I'd be available with or without help)... but rather than offering to cancel (because I don't really *want* to...) I would like to offer that HE take the day off on Sunday to spend it with the kids. They are going there anyway (Saturday night after our activity or Sunday morning - whichever he prefers, I'm fine with either), but I thought it would be *nice* for the kids and him to be able to spend a whole day OFF together.

I can embrace that enthusiastically - I'm sure he can too. Hopefully that gesture will prompt him to accept working alone tomorrow, enthusiastically too.

I'll make the offer for Sunday - and it's not conditional on what he does about Saturday. It's Father's Day - the kids want to be with their dad and I think it's a good thing that they spend quality AND quantity time with him right now.

Whatchu think?

JinGA

Bumping ...

FWIW I did send the email with my proposal for the weekend. He didn't reply til I sent him another email late in the day to ask if he'd received the first mail.

He did reply - accepted the plan as I proposed it. No word of "thanks" (see my Yikes thread)... would be nice for a "thank you" but that's fine - it's good for him and good for the kids and the kids will have a day with each of us, without any work interrupting. Should be a good weekend.

So I guess I figured out my dilemma for myself. I won't see him now likely until Tuesday, Wednesday and then Thursday. Friday after work is the official start of his vacation - I can't wait for the next 3 weeks to be OVER.

Then the real work starts, I think.

JinGA