MBN, can you point us to the place where this is quoted?

It seems a subtle distortion of what I understand the Harleys to mean, so it would be interesting to examine the source.

Thanks.

TA

So bury your head in the sand and keep doing what you are doing. Your marriage will REALLY get better then, right?

Sometimes people don't meet their spouses needs. They even know they are not and still don't care or try. To say this is the case in all A's would be a huge generalization. Sometimes you are just married to a serial cheater and it wouldn't have mattered what you did. It's not a justifiable reason to cheat, sure. But boy howdy, it sure comes up a lot in why a person cheats. I guess it's easier to brush it aside as a rationalization than to examine if it has any merit.

"First, let's analyze the problem. Over the past few years, you and your wife have grown apart. You have become incompatible, and you are not meeting her emotional needs. She probably isn't meeting yours either. She found someone who meets her needs, and was willing to give up her relationship with you to be with him. She comes back to you reluctantly, because she has no choice. But it gives you an opportunity.

You must take this opportunity to prove to her that you can do something you haven't been doing for some time: Meet her most important emotional needs. First, you need to discover them. What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.

Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.

Even though you have been very hurt by her affair, don't blame her for it. Don't expect her to apologize and don't ask her to explain the gory details."

I thought you pros agreed with everything Dr. Harley has to say?

You can't be talking to ME
because I am NOT a pro

because I am NOT getting paid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

once someone starts paying me ... then I'm a "pro"

FCF and MBN -

I don't think anyone is saying that BS's never need to make personal changes. It's just that the WS is the S who has committed the most blaring (and other negative words) offense that caused this immediate crisis. The M can't improve until at least one of the S's begins to make changes, and if you want to salvage and improve your M - tag, you're it.

I think each S making personal changes and caring about the other S's feelings and needs is the only way for Ms to thrive, even without infidelity.

God bless,
Rose

because Suzet requested I *** delete ***

Thanks Mel! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the good doctor in this PARTICULAR response is talking about in the very beginning while the wayward is still foggy. You can't TELL them that you BLAME or EXPECT anything at that time, cause they won't hear.

Well, thanks for sharing this Mark... If it's really true that Langley don't provide any solutions for recovering a wayward mind set and the M together with her descriptions of the stages, then I can't see the point of her books at all... The impression I've gotten from the reviews from readers off her books on her website was that she does provide solutions etc. in her book (as I pointed out to Melody earlier on).

I just want to point out that someone sent me Langley’s website link after I’ve started this thread on the In Recovery Board. I’m currently experience a personal problem with SF in my M and within myself and I’m looking for information to see why I’m experiencing this “shift” in my sexuality and EN’s/expectations from my H in this regard. The stages Langley described doesn’t have any reference to my current problem, but since that link was send to me by someone, I just found it interesting and informative since some of Langley’s descriptions of the stages matched my own way of thinking during the time I didn’t know what was going on with me and was still confused and in a wayward mindset. I gave a layout of her descriptions and how it corresponds to what I’ve experienced during that time earlier on this thread to give new BS’s who might read these stages hope and confirmation that there CAN be a shift from a wayward mindset (as described on the stages) to a Former wayward mindset.

Although I understand that a problem can’t be solved by focusing on the why and reasons of a wayward mind set and behavior, it at least give some understanding and I do think this understanding can be beneficial…it was at least for me… It was important for me to do self-searching and also understand WHY I felt and acted the way I did…and I was not only this way after my EA, I experience this need to understand in ALL areas of my life. For example, even though I’m a Christian who don’t’ doubt my belief or faith, I do study other religions and belief systems as well to understand where those people are coming from with their beliefs. I’m currently reading the trilogy ”Conversations with God” and although some of the things written by the author is totally ridiculous in my view and against my personal beliefs, I still find it interesting. And if I was a person who was helping alcoholics in AA (just for example), it would be important for me to understand their mindset and where they were coming from even if it was just to have emphaty and compassion for them as a person (not compassion for their destructive behavior – I just wanted to make that clear…).

IMO understanding something doesn’t have to stand in the way of focusing on the solution. That’s why I currently also looking for information and answers on the issue I’ve posted on the In Recovery Board… If explanations about something in an attempt to at least understand it is really not useful or relevant at all, then even excellent threats on these boards like “How the Wayward get Wayward and why they act so dumb…” and “The Anatomy of Adultery: 15 steps of Unfaithfulness” is not useful as well and serve no purpose on these boards. Not all A’s occur because of unmet EN’s in a M and IMO just focusing on the solution (e.g. fulfilling EN’s) and no search to understand what was wrong inside the WS that allowed them to make such a destructive choice, can be very dangerous IMO and keeps the FWS vulnerable and the M at risk. IMO to search, address and correct what was wrong within the FWS is much more important than just focusing on EN’s.

I'd like to point something out here. YOUR marriage may have been "sh*tty" when you decided to have your EA...guess what...mine wasn't when my wife decided to have hers!

ALL of the stress that was going on in our marriage and our family at that time was cause by HER actions and issues...I made very very few and small changes in my behavior during our recovery and after.

The VAST majority of changes that needed to be made were on HER end. She had to learn how to enforce boundaries. She had to learn how to handle and deal with the stress of some of the choices she'd made...quitting her job, a huge online gaming addiction at the time, etc...

My changes have been much smaller scale...learning to trust her again after her affair being the largest one.

We spent over a year in MC after her affair.

You know what we learned?

That our prior 17 years of marriage were a great base for us to rebuild. We already had the tools and skills to have a great marriage. We just needed to dust them off and brush up on them a bit. Once she made HER changes, things completely turned around. We're in a GREAT marriage now...AGAIN!

I take NO blame for her choice to have an affair. Nor does she try to place that blame on me. She admits it was entirely HER choice...and now its impossible for her to understand why she let herself begin to think that way in the first place.

You may have a bad marital situation. Here's my question to you...

What have YOU done to try to fix the situation outside of having your EA?

How hard have you REALLY fought to fix things? How hard have you fought to get him to understand how bad you think things are right now?

Has he HEARD you? Really? Do you know that he completely understands how badly YOU think things are? Does he know EXACTLY what changes you think he needs to make? Does he know that you're considering leaving him over these issues?

The Harleys don't anywhere suggest that lack of EN-meeting causes affairs, but that, pragmatically, missing ENs make the marriage vulnerable to problems - one of which is infidelity.

The responsibility for the marriage being vulnerable is down to both spouses. In another response, Willard Harley says:


What he's describing is a joint responsibility, for each spouse to know what they need and to find a way to articulate those needs. Both of these are hard to do, and take a lot of effort and patience on the part of each partner.

If a WS feels, and continues to feel that having an A was the only way to get ENs needs on the marital agenda, the marriage is almost certainly going to run into trouble again. The crisis alerted the BS to one set of problems, but did nothing to create a mechanism for identifying and communicating needs on both sides. All that the BS has 'learned' is that unless they pay tight attention to their WS's acting-out behaviours and 'requests', they will be punished. Sooner or later, that will start to feel blackmailed and resentful, and push back against their spouse.

It's the responsibility of both spouses to work out HOW to alert their partner to a need, HOW to convey the importance of that need, HOW to maximise chances of being understood, and HOW to deal with a perceived failure of needs-meeting.

It's also the responsibility of both to ask themselves hard questions about whether a need is legitimate. For example, we cannot require our spouse to compensate for our feelings of inadequacy or failure. We cannot expect our spouse to protect us from our own lack of self-discipline, and we cannot require our spouse to allow us freedoms that endanger their own security. Yet, it is very easy for an articulate person to convince themself that any of these is a legitimate need. Self-honesty is a discipline.

An A, whether E or P, is a failure of self-discipline. The feelings are undeniable. Giving oneself permission to act on those feelings is a failure of self-restraint. Telling yourself that you could not be expected to act with self-restraint, given the pressure you were under, is a child's attitude, not an adult's.

A betrayed spouse may be just as dysfunctional and childish as the betrayer. But this doesn't give the betrayer permission to fall below adult standards.

TA

No, they say IF there is responsibility to be had. Nowhere do they say this is the case in EVERY MARRIAGE. It is not. There are many marriages here where the BS met the needs of the WS and they still had an affair. [mine is one] It cannot be assumed that all of these affairs stemmed from bad marriages. Many don't. Nor are you in a position to say what a BS "has" to do or not do. They don't have to do anything just as the WS doesn't have to do anything. However, if the WS wants to be forgiven an apology might be a good place to start.

Generally speaking, an affair occurs when the marriage is bad, however, at best the BS is 50% responsible for the state of the marriage while the WS is 100% responsible for the AFFAIR. The WS must accept ALL the blame for that in order to recover, just as Harley states.


Having an affair *IS* promiscuous behavior. So, if you had an affair you were promiscuous.



It is probably not a smart idea to demand an apology from a BS after they have just been traumatized with the news of an affair. An affair is as traumatic as RAPE or the death of a child, so I would caution any WS from making such a demand. This is something that has to come voluntarily, if even warranted. And often it is not even warranted. It can't be assumed that the BS did anything wrong.

I get really concerned about the real recovery of a WS when she is more concerned about pandering apologies from her victim than in making amends to him. You won't get none too far with that. That is usually not a good sign at all.

Another red flag is a WS who believes that adultery is the moral equivalent of not meeting needs. Adultery is the willful RAPE of another person, not meeting needs is neglect. The two are worlds apart. It is like equating a pea shooter with an UZI.


You had an affair "because you failed to protect YOURSELF from your own vulnerabilities, period. You are accountable and responsible for all.." [Steve Harley's words] You betcha you did.

Whatever, it doesn't change the wisdom of his quote. In that case, I will STEAL his great quote, which is:

Ya can't find yourself? Get your head out of your [censored]! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yea well... If I knew that quote was not from him I would find it funny too...

Mel, maybe you must "adopt" that true quote as YOURS (so that I can forget it was from 2OfAKind), and then I will look at it again with a new pair of eyes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Suzet, focusing on the fogbabble of wayward wives is no solution for anything and does keep the wayward vulnerable. I know that you must recognize these statements as such, and there is no benefit to reading them. That is like hanging on the words of a falling down drunk. A drunk and a wayward know how to be BAD, what they need to learn are ways to be GOOD. And reading fogbabble from a wackjob will not achieve any such thing, except keep a wayward enmeshed in that nonsensical, fantasy thinking.

The road to recovery is to focus on and learn NEW behaviors, not to dwell on and encourage foggy thinking.

It's all mine, Suzet!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you're saying Mel. It was certainly not my intent to dwell on foggy thinking and encourage such. I'm sorry if it appeared that way. I would certainly not post this if I knew it would be taken this way...especially since it has upset Pio so much and caused thoughts of divorce to surface for him again… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />