Suzet,

I may actually go back and read the entire book just to see what she does have to say. When I began reading it the first time, I found nothing that really offered a solution to my problems.

I did not see any chapters on rebuilding the marriage, though there was much info on dealing with the adultery itself. And frankly, I simply found it to be written almost entirely from a WW's POV.

Again, I did not read it all, since I found little at the time that gave me hope. I did not then need an explanation of what was going on, but what to do to stop it and prevent it from happening again.

FCF,

From the article you linked to in your previous post...

[color:"blue"]"R.J. is now at a crossroads. She can take the next step in developing her relationship with her husband's friend, or she can explain her problem to her husband and try to resolve the issue with him. The advice I gave her was to tell her husband about the entire situation. He should be the one she enjoys talking to the most..."[/color]

This clearly indicatess she is at a point where she must make a choice. She can choose adultery or trying to "fix the problem" with her husband.

Also from the article:[color:"blue"]"R.J.'s husband has demonstrated his care for her in many different ways. But he doesn't care for her in the way that would deposit the most love units. Because he has not met her need for conversation, she is vulnerable to an affair."[/color]

"She is vulnerable" is not the same things as being helpless to prevent it from happening. The trick is to recognize it soon enough to stop from going down the road toward an affair, not merely resisting it when it jumps in front of you.

And:[color:"blue"]"There are some who feel that those feelings of love are a signal from God to abandon past relationships and rush into this new relationship. But it's no signal from God. Instead, it's the way our emotions mindlessly encourage us to spend more time with those who meet our emotional needs.[/color] [color:"red"]If we submitted to our emotions, and chased after anyone who at the moment deposited the most love units in our Love Banks, our lives would become chaotic in no time. And the lives of family and friends, to say nothing about our own lives, would be trashed. [/color]

IME, this clearly says that simply following our emotions and what they dictate to us is the wrong choice to make, regardless of what is or is not being done for us in the way of ENs.

Again:[color:"blue"]"The more sane way to approach unsuspected feelings of love toward those outside of marriage is to confront the problem honestly and intelligently. But R.J. did not want to appear to be an ungrateful complainer, so she violated the Policy of Radical Honesty. She did not reveal her true feelings to her husband so that they could resolve the crisis together."[/color]

And:"[color:"blue"]"It's almost impossible to stumble into an affair if you follow the Rule of Honesty. Her husband loves her dearly, and if she were to have told him about her frustration with their conversation, he probably would have taken steps to improve. In the beginning of her relationship with him, he may have spent hours talking to her just as his best friend did. In the beginning of their relationship, she may have fallen in love with him because of their conversation. But, as so many spouses do, he began talking to her less and less, little knowing that he was draining her Love Bank."[/color]

Show of hands, how many BSs had full love banks while their spouse was having an affair?

Lastly:"[color:"blue"]"But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning."[/color]

[color:"blue"]"The only way to protect your marriage from an affair is to be sure that those conditions don't exist. If B.D. and her husband were to have spent most of their leisure time together, especially after the arrival of their baby, this affair would never have happened."[/color]

The lack of meaning to the words, is not merely the result of unmet needs, but a choice made by the WS. This choice becomes easier to make when our needs are not being met in the way we want then to be, but unmet ENs is not the why of the A. When we have unmet needs, it is OUR responsibility to express that to our S. Since primary ENs can and do change over time, it is never safe to assume that we will have those ENs met in the way we want them to be if we do not communicate those unmet needs to the one we expect to meet them.

When we get married, we promise not only to meet our S's ENs but also to exclusively let them meet our own. While there are some ENs that someone else may meet rather than our spouse, it is up to US to protect our feelings from being drawn toward those people. My W cannot keep me from having an A, only I can do that. Even if she meets none of my ENs because of illness, distance or withdrawal on her part or mine, the decision to cheat still remains with me.

It is up to ME to recognize when someone is meeting an EN that my W is not doing so well at meeting and to both express that to my W AND to avoid allowing the OW to meet those needs. If I allow myself the luxury of letting OW meet my needs, I am the one who is opening myself up for an A, not my W.

Unmet ENs only allow the conditions that make an A an attractive alternative to exist, they do not cause the A to begin or to be sustained once started. It always remains within the realm of responsibility of ANY person to say "No" to infidelity. We are NOT helpless to prevent ourselves from making that choice.

If a marriage is bad enough to leave it, then leave. If it is not bad enough to leave but not what you want it to be, do something to fix it.

Unmet ENs are NOT the cause of the A, that remains striclty a choice made by the person whose needs are not being met. There are always other options available that do not entail infidelity. An A is NEVER a justifiable choice. Divorce is. Separation is, and is likely to be as big of a wake-up call for the S as anything that can be done. Say you are leaving until X, Y and Z happen and if they don't happen by a specific date, you will file for divorce, but at no time do I have as my justifiable right having a secret lover who takes away my attentions from my S.

Lack of boundaries causes affairs. Protecting boundaries prevents them. The BS cannot stop the WS from making choices that become an A. And the BS never makes thoses choices for them.

Not that I am a "pro," but I agree very much with what Dr. Harley says here about a SPECIFIC SITUATION that is not in recovery. That doesn't mean it applies to all, of course. Dr Harley DOES expect the WS to apologize, accept blame and tell the BS every aspect of the affair in order to recover. To whom are you addressing your little remark, dear?

You had an affair "because you failed to protect YOURSELF from your own vulnerabilities, period. You are accountable and responsible for all.." [Steve Harley's words] You betcha you did.

In my opinion it has EVERYTHING to do with personal integrity too.

It would not matter what was happening around a person (e.g. not having needs met) because their OWN personal integrity would make it impossible for them to participate in unethical activity (an affair).

If you work for someone who doesn't pay you what you think you are worth, do you steal from petty cash and then blame them because they didn't pay you enough?

No...that would be absurd.

Is that gonna get you off with the judge? Of course not.

The ethical person would tell their boss that they need more, and if it wasn't forthcoming, they would leave that job and find another one.

Same can be said about a marriage.

JMHO
committed

In my own case, the issue of the WS's needs not being met, and the BS's "percentage of responsibility" for the state of the marriage prior to the affair, and all that stuff....

well

One crummy conversation
One ounce of prevention
One thought on HIS part
One moment of consideration
One minute of verbalization to me
One sentence

Would have resulted in the changes he desired, his needs being met, and the affair never happening.

So, I ask

What, exactly, is MY percentage of responsibility NOW? If one person completely FAILS in their communication, it cannot be laid upon the other. Yes, I had my shortcomings. I accept and own those. However:

I never knew that he was thinking this way.

Because

I cannot look up his butt and read his mind - he has not yet installed lights.



He did what he did for his own reasons, and I was not a part of that decision. If I had been asked to vote, I would have VETOED IT!!!!!

And if he had been meeting my emotional needs, well, we certainly would have talked about his needs - because talking is my biggie on the EN chart.

As far as the "state of mind" issues goes for a wayward spouse. I think there's lots that goes into this.

And the term "mind" is bandied about loosely here - waywards are goofy to say the least. Not technically insane, but certainly they don't think like the average person. That's hard to do when the main thought is "me, me, me", and getting that next fix.

SB

SB,

No lights here either.

"I've been unhappy for years."

Why the he** are you still here?

"I tried to make you understand?"

Was that before or after you went to the motel with OM?

"I'm sick of doing everything for somebody else."

Does that mean you won't be doing that thing you learned from OM any more?

"You've never really understood the way I think and feel."

Nope. Guess not.

"If you really loved me, you'd know what to do."

Let me see...can you give me a hint?

"It isn't worth the effort anymore."

I'm beginning to feel the same way.

........
(Went easy on ya LA)

Nope. Still can't read your mind.

Maybe I need cryfocals.


Mark

Am I the only one who actually had a pretty good M before the A?

Our marriage was NOT ... I repeat NOT chitty when my H began his slow descent into his A ... it was average or above average in mutual satisfaction ... we had average problems ... we had stressors ... such is REAL LIFE !

Our marriage became a[color:"blue"] royal MESS[/color] as a result of his A

pfffffffffffffft <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

No, you aren't, Pep. I had JUST GOT MARRIED and my H was having an affair. It was his affair that damaged our marriage.

As I said at the top of this thread, Langley is clueless. Nuf said.

I'm beginning to wonder if OM isn't contacting Suzet_ again. This thread is a step-change for her. Change in behavior always has a root cause. This is more a TOW thread than an MB thread. It does sound foggy.

Well Pio I sure don't understand why she would think that tripe would be helpful to any BS on here and she had to know it would feed into some peoples worst nightmares. Very disheartening.

Suzet afterall has still not exposed to OM'sW and still works with OM. Foggy much?

Pep, my marriage was the same as yours. A very good, loving, kind and caring husband. He was withdrawn and extremely depressed at the time just before my A because of grief, but that should have been my cue to HELP him and not go and have an A.

My H is in no way, and never will be, responsible for my A.

Well I certainly won't get divorced over this thread but I do believe that, as you say, many new BS's could be discouraged. I clearly remember a time when I was just starting to get some hope and one thread almost made me give up the fight. Words have power and especially in this emotionally charged atmosphere.

If I am disappointed in anything, it is Suzet. I just don't get where she is coming from but I believe it is from OM. As you said, she never exposed for a million reasons and he has broken the NC boundary before with impunity. He feels entitled. I'm not to moved by what Suzet says any more because she will never even come close to being a role model of "former waywardness" to me. I do think KiwiJ straying affected me severely at that time because I did look up to her. Maybe it's two sides of the same coin - I don't know.

But Suzet's H settled the lawsuit, got a new job in different company. Maybe Suzet has lost some respect for H because he did NOT act more strongly against OM. Who knows? Just a weird thread.

Pep, like you, Mel and Jen, I also had a good M before my A. As I pointed out at the beginning of this thread, the issues were within myself and had nothing to do with my H or EN's not being met by him. I take full responsibility for the choices I've made.

As you say, everyone has average problems and stressors in their marriages (we too) but that's normal and part of life.

Pio and BigK, you two can think what you want so I'm not even going to comment on your silly assumptions and comments. It will be a waste of time and energy. I expected this from both of you anyway...especially YOU BigK...it's not your first time...

Enough said.

Suzet... you know I am a straight shooter. So here goes...

What was the point in posting this drivel??? It really is nothing more than crapp.
I am just curious as to what you motivation to post this was.

Langley's site serves several useful purposes not the least of which is that it attracts a very large number of people who are looking for answers, who might not stumble into this site at first. Langley, as I have said many times, is a one trick pony who knows why in some cases of female infidelity (but not all), and it is sometimes useful to understand why if you are trying to fix what is broke and your own situation fits the bill.

Thanks to Mark for his discretion. Mark: there are more than a few on here because I sent them either through direct posts or more usually in private posts that the WI site allows. I do not know what identities they assumed, but I can sometimes pick them out from the crowd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have not attempted to hide the fact I was in missionary mode on WI. In fact Langley used me as a horrid example in one of her posts. I have had some back and forth with her in private emails where she picked up on one point I made and handed it back to me in tattered remains while ignoring all the rest of what I had to say/believe. She is a serious piece of work who apparently is in missionary mode for a lifestyle she likes but cannot logistically justify. For me, I finally realized that she had a mindset that cannot be penetrated by any other possible way of belief and I abandoned her website for now. She has a private forum where she deals directly with those she chooses to invite to share her "Explosive" findings.

I was not invited. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you are going to be a serious student of marital infidelity, her site is one of many that can be read for whatever gems you find there, just like TOW and others. While the WI site has elements of TOW, it also has elements of wisdom from various posters who try to help find the resolution and path to restitution and a better marriage. Harley does a good job of describing wayward mindsets and what to do about it. Harley is indeed the man with the plan. And I salute him. But his wisdom is here, not there and some folks do not discover here unless someone points the way.

And frankly, I was glad to see this thread. Reading the many opinions of Langley's work helps me understand how to deal with her and what she has to say. I was sometimes at a loss to use words that would send someone here instead of into oblivion. I needed to see what others thought. Thank you. I tried to start a thread like this one several times and go nowhere.

What I did like about Langley's book and site is that it emphasized the cycle of female emotions. This is valid and is something that the good Doctor Harley does not address to the extent it deserves in my opinion. And please, I am not engaged in heresy here. Harley does not believe that dwelling on the past is a good thing and I agree. But some of us need a bit more to find that right path. In my own logical case, I needed to understand why or go crazy. Reading Langley, TOW, Suzet's 12 steps, Mel's hard line and a host of other examples of how it all works helped me to figure out which niche my own life and wife fit. And from understanding I was able to better fit the solutions found primarily in Harley's wisdom and secondarily in the wisdom of others, including those on here like Bob Pure, Suzet, Pep, WAT, and a host of others like PK, MrsW, Noodle, MEDC and the names could go on for line after line after line; those are just the ones off the top of my head.

The beauty of this site and Harley's wisdom is that while one post or thread can discourage, another can encourage. One size does not fit all except in base generalities. In point of fact, many, many people need to go on and contact the Harley's for professional help. After all, isn't that one of the reasons for the existence of this site? The Harley's have to make a living or this site would not exist at all.

Let me just conclude by simply stating that several times I suggested to Langley that she read this site and Harley's wisdom as a part of her own research. She said she would when she had the time. I do not know if she did or did not. She never indicated to me that she did. I do know that one or more marital counselors DO read this site because I have had emails so indicating, one quite recently and two at an earlier time when I was even more befuddled than now. I personally believe that any serious student or professional involved in family relationships who ignores this site will never get a complete picture. The life stories and points of view contained on this site are both manifold and explicit.

Hats off to Harley, the man with the plan, and to all of those on here who help him; even some of those who disagree with each other at times.

Larry

Larry, can you help me understand her POINT? What is her SOLUTION to adultery? What is the point of categorizing FOGBABBLE? Or is there one? [under 3 paragraphs, please??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />]

More importantly, what is her judgment of adultery? Does she condemn adultery?

Her point is that fogbabble is real for those so engaged, and she says so in so many, many words <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She sorta, maybe condemns adultery, sorta, maybe. At the same time, she talks and talks and talks about female sexuality and the "Shame" factor used by men in attempts to control women, which she is rabidly against. Keep in mind that she has been on a ton of popular media and that her message is heard by many who then go to her web site looking for guidance. Stealth me then sends them here, or at least I did for a while, given my logic that if you ain't here, you ain't nowhere, got it?

Her solution is a radical relationship theory she claims is part of the evolution of the species. She doesn't say so in her books, she reserves that for "Explosive" revelations on her web site. I think she is rationalizing her own lack of morals and her own past by interviewing women of like mind and then applying her standards to all females. Heck, I am guessing. What do you think after reading what she says rather than what people (me included) say she says?

pftttt for your three paragraphs. This is four. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Larry

PS, I gotta go clean up a house. Sold it, hurray!

Larry, you did so good!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just wanted to validate my sense of her with someone who a) has a working mind and b) is familiar with her. And you validated my initial impression.

My first impression is of someone who does not understand infidelity and because of her ignorance, sees value in validating FOGBABBLE, instead of looking for solutions.

It also seems that she has a low regard for women and views them as hapless, immoral, gullible retards who are easily manipulated and not acountable for their own sleazy behavior. She blames their bad behavior on MEN, the "oppressers." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> [Lord, can we please leave the heady ole days of the 60's in the 60's??] The women are just poor victims who are not smart enough to be accountable for their choices. She doesn't view women as EQUALS, in other words.

Too bad she doesn't focus her "rabidity" on adultery and helping women to be accountable for their own sleazy, immoral choices. She is a menace to women, not an asset.