Hi, Eph

It sounds like you're doing really well. You haven't delivered the Plan B letter yet, have you?

I think that I would go into any additional conversation expecting rejection and expecting that you will have to go to Plan B. Try to protect yourself from the disappointment. If it doesn't go that way, great!

I heard the same kinds of 'in a perfect world' and 'I just don't think it's possible' stuff, too.

no, PBL is is not delivered yet but it's probably coming after any further attempts of discussions per SH's direction.

I just TMed her again asking if she got my message from last night. She replied asking if I wanted to talk tonight after I get the kids in bed. I replied - Yes, looking forward to it.

No expectations at all - that is why I was surprised she even TMed me to begin with. But I also know it could be the last time we talk.

We will see. Holding on for now.

Eph,

First, I want you to do me a favor. Please do not put too much hype and pressure on this talk tonight. I guarantee it will not be the last time you talk to her--just the last time you let her control you via hurtful words and actions. Because of the children, you will speak with her again at some point--the difference will be that you will be disentangled from her emotionally and it will be like speaking to the mailman.

Second, please review the link in my signature about "When to end Plan B". The reason I am having you review this is that my exH kept me "on the line" while he continued his A several times by saying, "I'm making progress. Doesn't that count? Do I have to be perfect?" or "I am willing to TRY" and then doing nothing. I want you to have a crystal clear view of what it will look like if your WW is truly serious.

Finally, I believe you have a little bit of a special situation here, Eph, because of your WW's mental illness. Remember that a LOT of her perceptions are skewed from that. Thus, in my PERSONAL opinion, not only would WW have to show the "surrender" that Mortarman talks about...I think she would also have to show sincere effort toward admitting her issues and working with her mental illness. Eph, generally speaking, I think you take a lot of her "blame" and whatnot when in reality she is speaking from a mentally ill view of the world and of relationships. I would say that if she was regularly taking her prescribed medication, working closely with a doc and psychiatrist, and going to regular therapy or bipolar group--that would be appropriate indication that she's seriously working on her own illness. If not, part OF the illness is disruption of relationships, rage in mania, and inappropriate sexuality in mania. If she's not dealing with those things, it will not be a recovery.

Soooooo...keep those things in mind, dear brother.

Your mama bee,



CJ

Just praying for wisdom now and then the phone call will happen.

we talked, I recorded it all.

Made small talk at first, then she asked about the e-mail I sent on the MB Weekend - what was it, what happens, etc

So many times she tried to get off on a tangent, talking about the past, things I did or didn't do. I tried so hard every time to get back on target.

Several times she would just be going on and on and I would just say - "WW, do you want to do this or not" ("this" being attend the MB weekend) and she would be quiet. Then more venom.


She threw out that before she would go she wanted to "deal or settle the issues that are open before we were to go." in order to "take the stress, the pressure, the whatever off of everything and not be sitting there wondering 25 different things at one instead of this one issue that whoever is telling you about." The issues being "money, stuff, kids, whatever. I just asked what the relevance was to attending the MB weekend and said there was an easy way to end it.

I repeated so many times "If you know what the best is why would you not want it?"

It ended like this:

Me: Do you want to do this or not?
WW: I don't know, I am not sure that I know that is the best.
Me: I am sorry that you feel that way.
WW: Well I am sorry that you feel the way that you feel.
Me: I'm not.
WW: Well I'm not either.

I'll try to glean more nuggets.

I'm confused but it sounds like a no go?

oh, when I said "My lawyer deals with the divorce issues and I deal with fixing the marriage issues" she called it a "manipulation thing." I said "where is the manipulation there?" she backtracked with "I don't know, I don't know if that is the right word or not, I guess I just um, ahh, I don't know, you know, kinda seems like an easy way out, a weenie way out" and that I was told this (the divorce) might be coming and I chose to ignore all this time and I was just throwing it off to somebody else instead of doing myself.

I just said "Why would I do something I don't want to do." and I would not "engage willingly in something I don't want to do."

This was good:

WW: I told you the day was coming (when she would give up) and for whatever reason you chose not to believe me, whether it was because you could have cared less, you thought "Ahh, no way in the world she could ever leave, no way she will leave." I told you it was coming and you chose to take it as "Oh she just keeps threatening me."
Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me then.
WW: Meaning?
Me: I seem to recall both of us saying "for better or worse, until death" and I am breathing last time I checked.
WW: yeah, well I was close to not breathing before i left last time I checked. I had to make a choice
Me: None of that was my fault.
WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows?
Me: I did not put a gun to your head and make you do the things you did (referring to her eating disorder methods)
WW: No but you certainly helped.

yeah, after several comments that seemed to indicate possible interest on her part, it ended with her not wanting to go.

Thus her statement "I am not sure that I know that is the best."

Eph,

You did MAH-VE-LOUS. Really.

Even though the outcome was not what you hoped for, you did great.

As much as you hoped and prayed she would agree to go, you knew it was a long shot. The important this is that you gave it that shot!

Just like my weekend talk with Drac. They are both way too fogged out right now

They will have to hit the bottom on their own. The hardest part for us will be to let them do that - all on their own.

Buddy, WE need some rest. WE need some peace in our lives. I know I am darn tired of getting stabbed in the heart.

Our time has come my friend. It will be hard, but we must make it a very dark time.

Perhaps we will emerge from the darkness with our spouse. Perhaps not. Yet we will emerge as BETTER people.

You are a special child of God. Don't you forget it!

{{Eph}}

sent her this TM:

If you don't want to give a weekend, how about 50 minutes on the phone?


I'm dropping it now unless she brings it up again.

She sounds very foggy. I wouldn't think that she would be willing to do a phone consultation, but she agrees to it then go for it. I agree not to push it any more.

Plan B (follow Steve's advice on when to start it) will be a relief for you. It won't be easy, but it will be easier than what you're doing now. Everyone I know talks about how much better I seem not than I did even a few months ago.

Hang in there.

I think Steve guided you to the perfect spot. Considering where she is at...there is no way she was going to say "yes" right off the bat to going to the Weekend. It just doesnt happen that way, unfortunately.

I think the offer of a session with Steve was also good. I did the same with my wife, and she reluctantly said yes. During the session, she brought up a bunch of bile...but Steve kept redirecting her back to the question "What is the ideal scenario for you, your kids, your family?"

Now, did she take that and run home then? Nope. But the seed was planted! When I talked some more with my wife this Spring, some things came out in the discussion. One thing she has said over and over was that once I had pulled away (into Plan B), all she could think of over and over was that if Jesus showed up today, she thought He would ask "Where is your husband...your kids...your family?" And she would have no good answer. Which comes back to that seed you just planted...the ideal of the the family together.

Steve is the master, so follow his instructions! What I see is that you will need to see if she will go for that session with Steve. If she wont, then it is off to Plan B. If she does, then things will need to be evaulated by Steve and he will let you know if Plan A needs to go on a little bit longer...or you head to Plan B.

If you do go to Plan B, I would include a line about "The Ideal." That should be the main theme. That you are pulling away...but still desire the Ideal.

On the things she said...much of it was fog babble. But I have found that many times, you can glean out little gems out of the junk. And you were correct to point out that her adultery and moving out was entirely her doing. But, what I hear in her words is that the truth of the matter was that the environment the marriage was in was at least partly your fault. And she would be correct.

Which is why the other side of what you said...besides that her adultery was her doing...is that you agree with her that you had contributed to the environment to where your marriage was not what it should have been. But, that you now have realized that and understand what the Ideal is. That what the Weekend teaches is how successful marriages work, what your responsibilities are...and how to recover from the pain of the past.

She says she wants to deal with past issues first. That isnt possible! As a matter of fact, Dr. Harley states that going over past hurts and problems only causes more problems. both of your love banks are drained. Going over this stuff will only drain them more! What is needed is to first build up those love banks, so that you can take some hits. And then, if there are issues to still deal with, you can survive that. But interestingly enough, if you go thru the process of building up your love banks using the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair, both of you will find that most of those problems have moved into the background in the rearview mirror. And will no longer even be relevent.

Anyway, see what your wife says about counseling with Steve. You might even want to send her a printout of the MB Weekend info (just copy and paste) so she will understand what it is all about. Then, see what her response is.

My prediction is that she will balk at all of it, at least for now. She MIGHT go for the one session with Steve...but she most likely wont come out of that willing to do much. And considering where your love bank is...it will be time for Plan B.

Now, with this all laid in front of her, and then you pulling back...she will understand two things. First, that you still value your marriage (interestingly enough, she does too...which is why she engaged you in that conversation...it is why she is beginning to see the idoicy of her words and actions. She wont admit it yet, though). And second, that you have regained your footing and are now The Man.

This is EXTREMELY important! Women do not have affairs on husnabds that they respect! Your wife does not respect you right now. But, she is beginning to. When she sees your resolve not to just quit, you have earned respect. When she sees you addressing the issues in the marriage and taking responsibility, you earn respect. When she sees you being Dad and taking responsibility for the family, you earn respect.

And once you go to Plan B, you will also earn respect because you will show her that you are man enough to stand up to abuse.

So, see what her position is. Maybe even check back in with Steve. Things look good (although I dont want you to have false hopes). She is acting like the typical WW at this stage. The fog is clearing a little...just enough for her to start questioning everything. So, right now, she is following the WS Script word for word!

Hang in there.

She initiated another conversation this morning, and yes she keeps bringing up my failures and only mentioning in passing hers. Interestingly, in both conversations she has made no mention to anything with her affair (I even made a statement last night about a marriage not being made of three people)

I just kept repeating that I did not put us on this road to D, maybe the road we were on was not the best because I did not fully know how to get to the best, but it was not a road to D.

Today is DD's birthday - she is 4 now. I asked her if she wanted to go eat somewhere special tonight - her response was McDonald's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And she asked WW if she wanted to go with us tonight (I had already told DD it was OK if she asked becuase I was not going to do it after being rejected so many times).

Maybe if she goes it will give me the opportunity for one last attempt to get her to talk to Steve.

Hey E, I don't really have anything good to say about all of this so I'm just letting you know that I'm still here supporting you!

I don't know what else to say! Sorry!

Same with me E. I'm following your thread, but being a newbie and in the same sitch, I have no words of wisdom to offer. Just know that I'm cheering for you.

Hi Eph,

Just watching your thread and seeing some similar points. I spoke to Steve a few weeks back and he asked that my wife speak to him, but she refused. He made the same points about 'in a best scenario your WW being in love with the husband of her children' and the possibility to have a great marriage. I kept asking my WW, but it just seemed to push her away. I think you have managed to plant the seed in her mind as I did with my WW, but I wouldn't expect her to respond so soon. I think she knows your right which is why she keeps changing the subject of conversation or going off in a tangent.

Maybe you need to hit Plan B just to push her along a bit.

I am due in Florida for a family holiday at the same time they have the MB weekend and I'd love to be there. I just have to keep hoping it will happen.

This is only my opinion, and I hope I haven't offended you. I'll keep praying for you as I do for myself.

Chris

Thanks kg and h&f. I appreciate you thinking of me and checking in.

WW did decide to go eat with us tonight so I pulled some plan A on her as best I could. We had dinner, the kids played on the playset, I went in the playset with them and came down the slide two or three times while she sat at the table, asked if she wanted an apple pie (I knew she would, they are her fav). We just had a nice time, no pressure, no stress, no talks of anything really.

She thanked me for dinner afterwards and I thanked her for coming with us.

Great job Eph!

A no pressure evening was the perfect thing to do!

Are you ready for Plan B?

Well I pretty much focused on the kids this weekend and having fun with them. I think I wore them slap out. Saturday was the best. They played over at the neighbors Saturday morning while I did the yard work, then we went to a birthday pool party in the afternoon, then had more friends and kids over in the evening to hang out and play.

Interesting thing with the neighbor - it's the neighbor whose DD my WW keeps. She asked me how I was doing since she has "heard so much form the other side." I was careful in what I said, not revealing too much. Then she made an interesting comment. She said she was not going to tell WW that she had talked to me because WW would let that interfere with their friendship. I told her she was probably right (I later thought I should say that that was WW's issue, not hers, so she should feel free to talk to whoever she likes).

I also told her that I was unhappy with how WW handled informing her about not keeping her DD back in December when WW left the house. She said said that she had not gotten over that either. If I was her I would not trust WW to keep my child.

So anyway, I was gonna follow up on a few things with WW:

First, just to see where her thoughts are, I sent her a TM asking her to make a list og the "issues" she wants resolved before she would consider attending the MB weekend. I just want to see what that looks like, but I fully expect that the top item is for her to have custody of the kids.

Second, I'll make the last attempt to get her to talk to Steve. I mentioned to him that the last times I asked her to talk to him, she came back with wanting a favor of her own, i.e. getting custody of the kids. He said if she says that again to tell her that I would be doing her one of the biggest favors I could do as a husband by trying to save our marriage and our family, that this is something better than she could get anywhere else.

So let's see what God has in store for me tomorrow (actually it's today now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Interesting exchange, Eph.

Everything in that exchange seemed to be focused on "self." From both of you. Battle lines have been drawn and the "I'm right, you're wrong" entrenchment tool seems to be in full use.

Where does God "fit into" this "battle?"

"Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me then."

"Me: Maybe I gave too much credence to your vows to me and to God then."



"WW: yeah, well I was close to not breathing before i left last time I checked. I had to make a choice"

We all have to choose FOR or AGAINST God. I have seen where I chose poorly in my God given role as your husband and have committed to God to BE the husband that He wants me to be, hopefully with you if that is His will, but alone without you if you don't want God as the center of our marriage.


"WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows?"

Not necessarily, since I was being so blind at the time. A brief separation to focus on God first would possibly have been in order, but not choosing adultery, abandonment, or divorce as the "answer." That choice was yours and is something you will have to talk to God about.


What reason does SHE have for counseling of any type, a weekend or by phone? She is viewing this as she has to unconditionally surrender. That seems to be what is behind her wanting to talk about "other issues" first.

How many of these "issues" are first and foremost issues that each of you have with God? How many of these issues "exist" because of a personal unwillingness to submit to God and HIS leadership of the marriage? It's often easy to think "I've done this much and that much, so I'm okay." That's sort of like the "young rich ruler" in his exchange with Jesus who wanted to know what, if anything, he needed to do MORE than what he had been doing in his own power. He didn't like the answer he received because it required a change in HEART and God was not truly "first" in his life, nor would he "allow" God to be. Just think of all that he would have to "give up" compared to what he would "gain" from God.


"WW: I should have stayed and waited to die so I could say I honored my vows?"

I can't help wondering what Jesus' response would be to this question. "MY vows" to WHOM? "Doesn't what I want supercede what YOU want from me, Father?"

"Peter, this day you WILL deny me three times." "No way Lord!" "Way, Peter."

Eph, where is God in all of these conversations? Whose will are each of you "supposed to" be seeking first, no matter what you might be legitimately feeling or emotionally responding to?

For believers, isn't the "real issue," "Choose ye THIS day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we WILL serve the Lord." Was Christ's death for you "not enough?"

What if Jesus had not been willing to "stay and die" for HIS bride? Was it "easy?" "Easy" was never the point nor the focus of Jesus.

"Am I my brother's keeper?" I don't know how you or your wife might answer that question. I wonder what your children might answer on behalf of those who are SUPPOSED to be their keepers in safety, family, love, faith in God, willingness to "die" to keep them from harm, especially harm that either parent can inflict on them when they put "self" and "me" ahead of "thee."

Who "speaks for God" to both of you in these "battle negotiations?" Or isn't God a PART of the covenant vows you both willingly took?

Eph, you can "lead a horse to water," but only God can touch and change the heart of someone so that THEY will WANT to try to drink. They may be afraid the water is poisoned against them, but they will drink if they know that God has the power to render even poison harmless to them. They will NOT "surely die." God is the SOURCE of living water, not death.

Or has God been killed and it's "just the two of you now?"