Eph,

If it is true that she is wanting to see a therapist, that is good...and bad. Most therapists are of the type that will help her thru her divorce, help her get over the marriage. That is not what she needs, nor what you need or your family.

Unfotunately, you really dont have a say in which therapist she goes to right now. So, I would say that your idea is as good as any. Just tell her it doesnt work for you on Saturdays...that maybe a week day would be better. Then drop in the offer of SH again, that he would love to talk to her. That he is helping you a lot and it would help him help you. And maybe even help her. Leave that nugget for her.

Unless some changes happen in a very short period of time, I just dont see any other course than Plan B very soon. But until that line is crossed, you will have to continue defending boundaries and putting out your mantra!

Well interestingly enough I know who the therapist is because I just happened to get an insurance statement in the mail that was for WW's visit to her back in May. So I can do some research there to maybe see what her philosophy is.

Agree to throwing SH out there as a possibility, but otherwise I don't think I am gonna switch the weekends when I can find an alternate solution. Even if she does not like it I an show that I made a good faith attempt to help and did not just cast her request aside.


Rin, what are you doing asking deep questions like that? You trying' to make me think while I am at work? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL

I'll get back to you on that one.

LMAO...Nope...not while you are at WORK...

LMAO...:)

LMAO...I hear the crickets! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, last night was interesting, but then again what else is to be expected when dealing with a wayward.

DD's party was a blast. It was at this place that has all these big inflatable play things indoors (Rin, think of the party you did with 5 or 6 of those things).

There were 6 of DD's friends there and their parents, plus WW's mom and brother. I spoke with everyone there on multiple occasions, but I don't think I ever say WW speak to anyone except her mom and brother and the neighbor whose daughter she keeps. As a matter of fact, I saw her spend more time playing with the little girl than even DD. Sad. Anyway, she was friendly with me and I was a little flirty back, pushing her down the slide a few times.

I walked up to her mom and said "Well I am sorry for being rude, I can give you a hug before I get all hot and sweaty from playing with the kids." We talked at length about her new job and how that was all going. I got the feeling her brother was intentionally staying away from me, although I did shake his hand and tell him thanks for coming to the party.

One thing that did get to me (probably as designed) was DD got a gift from "Mommy, bubby, grammy, pappy, uncle C, and big mac." Well big mac is the dog so I guess to her I am lower than the dog. The gift was one of those battery powered power wheels Brbie jeeps. I said aloud "Wow DD, we will have to bring that to our house so you and bubby can race jeeps (he has a John Deer jeep already)."

So after it was over, she asks me if I was gonna swap weekend with her and I said no, that we could do it a different way. She could find a day during the week to meet with the lady and I would find alternate child care on that day. I tell you, it was like a switch was flipped on her. She threw out all kinds of statements - "That's not what the paperwork says." "So am I supposed to work with you if you need to switch things?" "Why can't we work together on this?" Just general angry type statements that I expected. I just replied that I was working with her and that I was being flexible with her.

After I left I sent her this TM:

Talk about hearing crickets <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Plan B will commence next week.

Eph,

Glad DD's party was a hit! Nothing unexpected from WW was it?

They are only 'happy' when things go as THEY plan, otherwise it is the angry selfish alien in total battle mode. You gotta get away from it.

YOU did. MAH-VE-LOUS job. You can bet your boots EVERYONE noticed the difference between your conduct and that of WW. Of course she kept to herself. She is, deep down, embarassed and ashamed of her actions even though she won't admit it even to herself right now.

I am standing here in the dark, waiting for you to join us Killer Bees! I promise to hold your hand! See you soon?!?

Here I'm glad that it sounds like you enjoyed yourself at the party and got to be around her family...

Just remember blood IS thicker than water adn they will more than likely take her side just becasue it's family...

They are as sick as she is...

Am I also glad to see that you have set a goal for plan B...pat yourself on the back! Do it for me will you? LMAO

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I'm trying to wrap some things up b/f getting out of here! Take care if I don't talk to you soon! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well I talked to the person who was to be my intermediary and she said she was not entirely comfortable doing that, but whould help in any other way. I told her I understood how she felt about it and thanked her for her help so far.

We also spoke about DD's party and she did confirm that WW did not rally speak to her at all.

Soooo, time to start looking for a new one.

This is my time line for plan B. Next weekend the kids are home and the following week (7/30 - 8/3) I am on vacation and the kids and I will be together all week. Since there would be no planned interactions with WW during that time I thought delivering the PBL when I pick them up Friday would be the best time. Plus we are taking a road trip from 8/1 - 8/3 so that works even better.

Eph,

I am working on my big, long reply to you--in the midst of it but not quite done--and yet I took a minute to peek over here at your thread. I'm going to be exceedingly blunt with you and apply a fairly major MB 2x4. Every single post you say that you understand it is time to go into Plan B. Every single post, the vets come on and URGE you to get your hind-end into Plan B NOW. And every single post, you come up with some reason why you have to put it off "another week" ... and then it's "next week" ... and then "Friday would be more convenient."

I have repeatedly told you that I would be willing to be your intermediary. So have some others here on the boards, if for some reason you don't want to use me. And yet week after week goes by with some "good reason" why you can't/won't go into Plan B. Your excuses have dried up and frankly, I don't believe you anymore. You have no more "reasonable" reasons. Either go into Plan B tomorrow morning, or I don't really believe you will. You are blowing smoke up our hither regions, and I do not appreciate being treated like that.

If you are going into Plan B--do it NOW...not in "two more weeks" or "five more days." You have had plenty of time to prepare for this, and at this point I challenge you. It is my opinion that you have no intention of doing what you know is best for you or your marriage.

Frankly...bluntly...at this point in time you are doing more HARM and DAMAGE to your marriage than good, and I think you need a calling out. YOU are allowing the affair to continue, pure and simple, and you know how to help yourself, your WW and your children--yet you won't do it. You are allowing your WW to aim her anger at you, continuing to refuse to protect your own heart, and not being a strong, loving husband by letting your WW face the consequences of her choices...so that rather than growing and maturing, she blames you. Your WW is in the fog and not mentally balanced, but YOU are a grown, mature man and you know what to do in order to have the best chance at saving your marriage and your family, but you WILL NOT DO IT.

So this is it, man. "Put up or shut up," because as much as I care about you and have been your MB friend and guide, I am not willing to allow you to lie to me. Nor am I willing to know that you KNOW that you should be in Plan B right now, and then be "comforting and supportive" when you come back with yet another report of how hurt you are from another contact with WW where she twisted your words, etc. when you KNOW that you should be in PLAN B and not having any contact with her!! Nor am I willing to know that you KNOW your best chance to save your marriage and family is to be in Plan B right now...and then be "comforting and supportive" when you come here with yet another report of how hurt you or your kids are that you're getting a divorce WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO FOR THE BEST CHANCE TO STOP A DIVORCE, AND WON'T DO IT!!

Eph, you know what to do and you're not doing it. You know what NOT to do, and you're doing it! I'm not willing to sit idly by and watch you behave in a way that I personally believe is wrong and destructive to your marital covenant. Time to man up!!!! Go into Plan B NOW!!!!!!!!

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Wow CJ, I don't know how many times you have made the point about wanting to be Eph's intermediary. Is there a special reason why you want to be so intimately involved in his life?

I too have sat and read day by day his denial of the fact that he does not feel ready to do Plan B. I am not sure vehement posts like this will help him.

We all have different timing, I too am sure his time to do plan B is long past due, maybe this is the week he will act. We all have a point of no return, I truly hope he is there, i didn't find Plan B was agony, it was relief, it fitted exactly with the 180, and built my self esteem and self worth - not the logical knowledge, but the emotional kind that is deep in the soul.

Maybe a man would be a better intermediary 9f they have to be from here - another woman seems a bit like provocation to his WW IMO. Maybe I am all wrong here, but it just seems a bit off balance to use a woman from here that WW doesn't know, to be the intermediary for a BS.

Ethics are all in this situation, and the impression she (WW) has of Eph's ethics will influence how she looks back and sees the light when the time is ripe.

Repectfuly SP

I'm backing CJ up 100%...you are long overdue and there are no more exucses...

Only out of care and concern!

CJ - first let me say I do appreciate your advice and your bluntness. I've needed my share of swift 2x4x on occasion.

I don't think this is one of them and here is why:

First thing is I talked to SH about this on 7/9. He gave me a task to do because "she still needs to believe tht she would be the happiest to be in love with the father of her children, EVERYTHING ELSE IS FOUNDED ON THAT" (emphasis mine). Once I have completed that then plan B.

Second, I am NOT willing to compromise the position I have put myself into regarding my kids future. Sure I want to save my marriage, and second to that I want to protect my kids. I know plan B is what I need, believe me. But I am not going to let my twisted thinking WW ruin what I am doing for me and my kid's sake.

I appreciate the offer to be my intermediary, but I think the time difference COULD pose a problem. Now I could be wrong (I need to go back and re-read) but I don't think anyone else volunteered to be my intermediary (nope, I double checked). I DO think having someone educated in MB principles would be an excellent choice, though.

I don't want to argue over this. I know you mean well but your post stings right now. Tomorrow it might feel different. Just letting you know Mama Bee.

We are on Eastern and my husband would help if you really needed someone. As a FWH he might be a good choice - on the other hand I bet if you asked for a volunteer nearer you there are many male MBrs you know well who would offer to help you.

You will get there, it took me a long time. I did it too soon at first and it back-fired. So we all have our time. Let me tell you getting ready to do Plan B for the second time was a lot harder. Just do it right this time. SH will guide you.

SP

sigh.... what was the point of this gratuitious cheap shot? CJ has been nothing but sincerely helpful to many on this board so this comment was very uncalled for. I happen to be an intermediary in a similar situation, and the only reason I offered was because I cared about the couple, and I have no doubt this is CJ's motivation.


I don't see how a man would be a better intermediary for a FEMALE. Do you know something the rest of us don't? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Isn't that just ASKING for trouble? The best choice is a neutral party that is known by BOTH, but if that is not available, then any neutral party that will cooperate within the limitations of an intermediary is appropriate. My LAST choice would be a former wayward HUSBAND, with a track record of serial cheating, for obvious reasons.

[you want your H, with his track record to be the intermediary for wayward female? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> "Him WS 52 P/A. PA + Multiple EAs from day one."]

CJ, I agree with every word you posted and I only hope that our friend, Eph, does listen and follow through as planned. Eph, don't make us come over there, mister! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Eph, if you cannot find anyone else, I would agree to do it and I am on CST. I want to say first that I think CJ would be an excellent choice, but if there is a time difference issue, I would do it. I don't think you would find the time difference to be much of a challenge, though, if you have carefully worked things out beforehand.

For example, you would set up a strict visitation calendar beforehand, so there should almost nothing to communicate about unless an emergency arose. And in the case of an emergency, she would know she could contact you directly anyway. What you don't want to be communicating about is minor crap like "send Sally's pink tennis shoes in her back pack." That type of communication will have to cease.

What will need to be passed on is information about doctors visits, medicine, school plays, etc, and none of that is urgent. So, the time difference should not be an impediment, IMO, unless there is something here I don't know about.

It was not a cheap shot it was a question - boy you guys are on tenterhooks...

The reason I think a man would be best is that she doesn't trust this site or she would be here and talking to SH, so a woman might be seen as less than trustworthy, or somehow involved, in her "fog eyes". I know I would never have a man my husband did not know and from a site he didn't trust be an intermediary.

I had no idea that people on this forum acted that way for each other, couldn't see how that worked but now you explain that it is common here, I can see that CJ was just repeating it, to cut off his escape into another excuse as she saw it.

I can see that many of you agree that Eph should go for it, but I say if he is paying SH $185.00 per hour for advice and you do not agree with him taking it, you should yell at SH.

Sorry CJ - I guess cheap shots are in the eye of the beholder. I hope you didn't feel that way. No offence intended. I will go away and be quiet again. nuff thread jack - I'm gone.

SP

REPOST WITH DIFFERENT DETAIL FOR EPH'S THREAD:


Dear silverpool,

I hope you don't mind, but I did want to reply to your questions and I didn't think that threadjacking Eph's thread was the proper way to do that, so I made you your very own thread! Then, as Eph rightly pointed out, there are lots of details on here specifically about him, so I made your post more a generic discussion, and brought the details here on Eph's thread.

First, I think you questions are very legitimate and appropriate. I thank you that you are "on guard" for appropriateness between MB members--that's a virtue! In my particular instance, I am a married lady and I do not converse at all with any men unless it is out here in public on a forum that everyone can read -or- unless my DH has a copy and is involved in reading it right along with me. Eph is aware of this, but I can see that I haven't really written that all over MB, so now you'all know.

Second, no, I do not really want to be intimately involved in Eph life or in the life of his WW. I offer the option of being an intermediary when I see people who are saying they have no one else and in Eph's case, when they're using it as an excuse to not go into a Plan B that they need to go into. In this instance I think a female intermediary for Eph may or may not be good for him, but it would definitely be good for his WW. Most importantly though, what I was trying to point out to him was that "I don't have an intermediary" is not really a valid excuse. On other threads all over the forum, I've seen people volunteer to be an intermediary. On this thread, after my post, Mel volunteered. I would be willing to bet that Mortarman might do it for a while if asked. Finally, I know people who will be intermediaries for a price--in other words they charge money to do it. So in real life there are no shortage of trained, skilled intermediaries! And I did mention to Eph several times that I could understand if he just didn't feel comfortable with me for any number of reasons (including "I don't feel like it")--that there are still a NUMBER of options left!!

The WHAM of the MB 2x4 I have to admit, I thought and thought and thought about last night. Anyone who knows me at all, knows that I'm a peace-loving kinda gal. But I'll be just as honest with you, silverpool, as I was with Eph. I think he needed a fairly swift kick to the heiney. I think he is using SH's words as a crutch to not do what he knows he needs to do...and to do what he knows he needs to stop doing. I do not have a quarrel with SH (nor really Eph either)--I tried to be blunt and frank with Eph in the hopes that he would lift his head, see reality, gather his courage, and take the jump into doing what is right but what he is afraid to do. In my mind, I envisioned it as a mama bird who sometimes needs to push the baby out of the nest. Some baby birds jump willingly...some take longer but jump on their own...and some need a push.

Next, I do realize that what I said and the way I said it may indeed have hurt Eph's feelings. Trust me, I thought on that long and hard. Here was the deciding factor for me. Not all "pain" should be avoided. Sometimes it hurts to grow or mature, and thus Proverbs 27:6 "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are lavish and deceitful." I don't want to "support and comfort" Eph when I perceive that to be the kisses of an enemy!!

Finally, your final comment is RIGHT ON THE MONEY. There are ethics involved, and from what I can tell, right now WW is not getting the effect of "laying the cornerstone that she could be most happy in this marriage" due to mixed messages from Eph. First, she's bipolar so her perceptions of the world are a bit skewed...in addition to her already skewed view from WS-fog!! Second, she is confused by some of the times when it has appeared to her that he has said, "yes" and then said "no." (It's not always what actually occurred but she plays it that way, and sometimes it did occur that way). Third, due to his resentment building due to continued contact that he shouldn't be having, HE is being more and more hurt, and rather than behaving in a Plan A way that meets her needs and makes him appear as an attractive alternative, he is literally LEAKING resentment and DJ's all over the place and doesn't know it. He spars with her verbally and then denies he's doing it. He DJ's about what is important to her. And that does NOT "lay the cornerstone of being happiest in this marriage"!!! In fact, if anything it confirms to WW that she is happiest AWAY from it!!!

So the damage that I am trying to get Eph to stop is a) damage to himself by continuing the contact and b) damage to his marriage by continuing to confirm that she is more happy away from the marriage and family. I don't want to see him hurt anymore than any one of his other friends...but the path he is choosing is a path that leads toward his own harm (because he continues to "take in" her blame, her vileness, her WS-fog babble, etc.) and the eventual destruction of his marriage and family. If he could get into Plan B, I believe as an individual he would heal nicely when not subjected to the almost daily onslaughts of a wayward's hurtfulness. The peace of Plan B would be a huge blessing. And if he could get into Plan B, I also believe that he would have a better chance at learning how to validate her feelings, how to actually listen to her hurts rather than defend, how to avoid verbal sparring, etc.!! That would be a GREAT opportunity then to save the marriage!!!!

Alas, he chooses to continue to stay in denial. I am VERY sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Your faithful friend,



CJ

well it's as if everything came together today.

1. Recent talk of taking the next step and the net appearing.
2. CJ calling me out
3. Today's message in church.

Read above for #1 and #2. For #3, read on.

Today's message was titled "When Jesus multiplies what we give Him," taken from John 6:1-13 regarding the miracle of Jesus feeding the 5000.

Key points were:
-No one is small or unimportant when his life is in the hands of God.
-God seems to prefer to work through what we call small or unimportant.
-God just wants us to be faithful with what we have.

Notes I wrote:
-Little is much when God is in it
-God steps in when we reach our limit
-No one is small, unimportant, or ordinary to God
-God does the extraordinary with the ordinary
-Give God the very best you have and leave the results to Him

So how does this all fit together for me?

It's apparent to many that I have reached my limit and I risk causing further damage to what I have done. As much as I don't want to see this, it's true. Plan A was about me and God, plan B is all about God now.

I'm just an ordinary person why has tried to follow the MB principles. Everyone else here is just ordinary as well, not professionals as we so affectionately call them (I mean who really WANTS to be a pro at this?), but they are battle scarred and battle hardened based on their experiences. I am thankful for everyone who has come along side me in my time of need.

Finally, I did the best I could so far, and that was far from perfect. I did some things well, some not so well. No matter, I will leave the results to God now.

CJ - I know you mean well. Tough love. Thank you, becuase if not for your post I would not have made the connection. You brought everything into the forefront of my thoughts. It needed to happen. So much in fact that I dreamed last night that we came face to face, and strangely you were on staff at my church. Weird.

As I said above, I think having someone familiar with MB principles is a good idea. Regarding the male vs. female argument, I think WW is less likely to talk to a male than a female. What can work in my favor is the female is not local.

I commented above on the time difference, speculating that it COULD be an issue based on my limited knowledge. CJ, if you feel it would not be an issue would you still be willing? You've also got mail.

When I meet with my attorney and the GAL this week I will show them the PBL and tell them why I have already done it.

After posting this, I am handwriting the PBL to be delivered tomorrow.

You are all right - it's past time. I will not be enslaved by fear any longer.

Eph,

Wow! I don't even know what to say. I am always willing--you know that. And if you would feel more comfortable with someone else or think someone else would be a wiser choice, I'm sure there are several people here who would be willing to do this for you. I have great confidence in the "MB team" (although we'll never be the same now that Pep is retired).

I'm glad that God was able to speak to ya today. Keep listening for His voice, and you won't go wrong.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

P.S. I'm going offline for a little bit to dig some weeds, so I'm not ignoring ya or being mad--just digging weeds on the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

God Bless you, CJ, for being a true friend to Eph even when it is HARD to say what is needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />