Hmmm almost like rubbing his nose in it a bit isn't it? Or is that sorta kinda the (gentle) point?

It's a difficult dance, all of this.

I do think it's kinda interesting that he hasn't left on 'vacation' yet tho...

Everything happens for a reason <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

if YOU were not at some event your child took part in (for whatever reason)

would you want to see the phun-photos?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

that is your motive ... to share the joy!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... you can sit next to him and show him the photos one-by-one

and tell him the "story" of the party

he's her DAD ... he's interested

remember ... time dedicated together = love bank deposit

True enough - and yes I would want to see the pix.

I think I sent XH some of something DS did that he opted out of when GF was still in the picture.

I suppose whether he interprets it as nose-rubbing or sharing the joy is up to him... but I'll approach it from a sharing the joy perspective <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Oh... so no emailing them...

Since I only have a digital... perhaps downloading them at the shop and us looking at them *together*... will that work? Not as cozy as sitting beside each other... but somewhat similar.

JinGA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

if you leave the photos IN YOUR CAMERA

you'll have to sit closer to see them

ask him:

Do you want copies of any of these pictures? HERE, let me show you, so you can decide which ones you want.

Dayum... you're good!

Funny *he* has done that with his new camcorder... showing me stuff. Last week he had it plugged in to the little TV at the shop...but I had to stand, he was sitting at the desk the TV was on.

When he brought me into the bathroom to turn the light out to show me the night-vision thingy I *nearly* copped a cheap feel... but resisted. I was afraid to wake up the toilet ghost!

JinGA

Jin,

I love Pep's fix on getting out of the way of your xH's relationship with your DD. You kids don't move on from their father. Their bond transforms over time...all children do with their parents...the bond remains. Showing that relationship as clearly separate from yours with xH is important. After her noncommital response, "I know it's up to you in how you want your relationship to be with your dad. I respect that it's really up to you to include on the book night or to make plans with him the next day."

That shows her power...as it is.

And it delineates what is within your responsibility (control) and what isn't.

Back to his "boundary" about not accepting invitations to not lead you on. Invitations do not cross his boundary...and he isn't powerful enough to lead you on...nobody truly is. Up to you invite, anyway...that's your power. And your control of you not to take any acceptance or rejection of an invitation as meaning more or less than it does...people choose to be present, to participate, or they don't. Their own reasons. He may choose to make it about you...doesn't mean it is, at all. It isn't.

If you have chosen in yourself to believe that what is right now is right now...not to take something from the present to set your future...then his choices are starkly his own...where he gives his presence remains his choice.

Adhering to his boundary is making him your master. That's not where, I think, you want to live from. It's not respecting his boundary...which is around himself, his choices...it's using it as a tool against yourself.

Maybe this is my own perspective tripping me up in not understanding yours. See, invitations are respectful...they acknowledge our limits out loud. Any time you say to yourself, "I won't offer because he doesn't want me to" would be choosing your actions based on his possible response. And when you take what he said then...and apply it to now...aren't you negating his change of mind? You were okay inviting before and letting go the response. That's what I saw and heard you say.

Think about this statement..."I don't want to lead you on." Does it smack of someone not understanding their human power and limits? Could he really mean, "I fear doing more harm" be closer to reality?

Would you make his fear into a boundary? Would you say, "I won't do or say this or that because he may fear?"

I wrote:
You responded:

Well, what did you live by in your marriage? I found out how much I DJ'd aloud and in my head. Skewed my perceptions, my feelings...all of me. DJs are insiduous that way. When I got how I lived from false control, I had to replace my own premise with something else...I chose respect. Made sense to me because I had literally been living from disrespect. And to live from respect meant I chose from respect...respect for reality, our human design, and the belief that we choose our lives. Meant respecting my DH's choices as his own...not making them about me. Even when he would say, "I didn't do that because you didn't do this", I would put that in my hopper and see his choice as his own...and mine as well. That is respecting reality, our human power and limits.

Changing my premise had a trickle (and flood) down effect...because I saw choices as they truly were...no more assumptions or mindreading...then I saw presence as choice. Valuing choices led me to value the person...respecting their choices as their own...unhooked me from the slavery of making my choices based on possible response. Unravelled all my lifetime of living from manipulation...giving to get, tit for tat...fortune telling or being trapped in the unrepentant past. We can only repent in the present.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, I may be really over-reactive to your xH's statement because of when I heard those very words from my DH's mouth...one of those trauma statements from his A. And at the time, I had not yet changed my premise, heard his words clearly as his perception, his truth--not the truth. So that's my disclaimer for my possibly skewed perspective.

Can you see where choosing to believe in destiny...what is meant to be or not be is distraction fodder? We only have right now...our choices. Period. No clue to if he'll want to lead you on in the future or not...or if you'll choose to believe he can or not. Those beliefs are made right now and lived by...not in the future. Not predestined.

What you allow to influence you right now changes your future. And what you do not allow. How wide you put that door open...or how narrow. That's your future-deciding choice. Do you recognize your xH choosing his life from his feelings? If he feels closer to you, then he'll choose to act more intimately? Do you see where that's backwards?

You know you cannot control his choices...his premise. You can control your own. So if you're determining your actions based on something that isn't your own...your premise...are you being who you really are? If you changed your mind about wanting to be his life partner because he's back to the H you remember...are you really living from your own changes, or based on his?

Are you choosing to live from your feelings? I don't see that. I see it 90% from your beliefs. Which is why it's so easy for me to be proud and admiring of you. That last ten percent, though, may be where you're wrestling a bit, feeling tired, upset, a tad hopeless. I dunno. I know that what you see in others is a signal to look for in yourself.

Actions determine feelings. That's what I see you doing. To put his feelings as the determinate for your actions, to me, smacks of old stuff. Old habits.



Up to you to choose to live from your code...your own boundaries...for instance, honesty. If you think, "I would like to invite xH to share our dinner" and then you don't, because you then think, "No point to it; he won't accept." Then doesn't that cross your boundary of honesty and respect? Changes your own choice in the present based on his boundary? Changes what you choose from...crosses your own boundary of honesty?

And goes to your belief..."he's told me why he declines"...why choose to make that an eternal choice when each individual decline is a present choice? Does that sentence him (fantasy) to always declining for that reason, no room for change?

He changed. What you most wanted in your marriage came to pass after you filed for divorce. Humans change every day...we're new. Reality says he declined. He declined a lot. Doesn't mean he will today or not...or tomorrow.

And the flipover is...what have you sentenced yourself to with this belief...that what was remains so in yourself, today, given what you used to believe...and you may no longer believe? What opportunities for new choices do you negate in yourself, right now, due to past wants or desires?

I wrote:
You responded:

Which is why I really shouldn't fear my repeating, posting redundant stuff. This second time brought out another layer to your first response...that you don't want to make him uncomfortable. Another overlap. He may feel uncomfortable or not...not you making him. You know and have demonstrated that you know you have no control of his stuff...what about cause and cure of? Here, you are pre-supposing his discomfort as a direct result of your invitations...and are curing him of it by not inviting. And there you said, his boundary right now...those two new words not there before.

I see this as an example, not the end-all...this inviting/decling. What else might you be doing or not doing based on his possible response? Can you see where it fully betrays you when you choose from this premise?

And did you do this in your marriage? Is it a habitual perspective, a deep belief?



Can you see it as an LB to yourself? He's not doing this right now...not sharing about YGF...I get that. Our beliefs predetermine our actions...if we choose to live from them, not our feelings...so I'm wondering if you can see better how his stuff determines your choices better in this regard. How NOT saying what you desire is an active act of betrayal to yourself? Not respecting your own stuff?

I wrote:
You responded:

I see this awareness and your goal. Which is why I'm filling up a page of your thread, I fear. LOL. You set yourself free through your choice to share honestly and let the outcome go. You freed yourself. You chose to no longer live from your own feelings...to make your choices in reaction to them. My effort here is to tug you the other ten percent of the way to living from your beliefs...choosing your premise to live from, to choose from, with full awareness.



Shine, anyway. We are all in progress...life is a process. There is no perfection...and yet, we can live perfectly in the present, and have perfect moments.


I'm not belaboring or arguing here...I think this ties directly into basing your choices on his choices. I'm asking you to see with a new perspective. Boundaries are about us, for us. If you can see your choices back then as progressive, predetermined boundary enforcements...where you respected his choices...not to get help, medication, acknowledge or connect...and your choices, as well, as independent...not him vetoing...you choosing...then you will see you wanted to divorce as the final boundary enforcement. Wishing isn't wanting. They are two different things. However, if you're suspecting now that you were determing your choices in reaction to his...to get him to do what he needed to do...then you'll miss his choice entirely. He chose to change...to make different choices. He could have chosen to remain in depression, rejecting and resisting. He didn't. Not because of what you did...he allows how much influence your choices have on his or not...but because he chose.

Understanding that you didn't want to continue your partnership with him under those circumstances is really important, Jin. You wanted to divorce. You wished you didn't have to...and you didn't. Your choice was to enforce your boundaries or not...many of us do not. Or we do it erratcially.

Or unaware of what we're doing.

If you were using your boundary enforcement to get him to change...then that can echo in your relationship. What your intent was, your premise, is important. Changing you, what you choose from, your awareness...all that you've been doing since. And it sounds to me as if you did your boundary enforcement and then backed away from it a bit; back and forth. Which is solely within your power.

And what I hear is that you decided to end your marriage based on his financial choices...which didn't force you to enforce...see if that priority is as clear as you now can see it...because it sounds like there was a tug o' war going on...and you didn't see another choice...to drop the rope.

I don't bring up the past in judgment. I bring it up to ask if you can see the rope...and your choice. To cleanly face your choices back then with who you are now...very tricky business given when we think about the past, we tend to see it through the eyes we had then...through the filter of who we were then...

And about separation as the end of the marriage...where it's okay to date because of separation. Again, not in judgment for past...application in your present.

Your choices for financial protection were based on legal separation...not divorce. Okay. Had you thought that dating while separated was adultery back then, would you have made different choices? Like now...he's separated from his YGF...are you committing infidelity through your actions and thoughts right now or not?



Divorce can be undone? Nope. It really can't. Humans can be reconciled, remarried...not undone. Bankruptcy goes away after seven years as an influence. So does foreclosure...they can't be undone, either. They can be reconciled, redeemed. These are my beliefs...that every action taken is done. It truly is...cannot be undone. Which is why determining what we choose to live from, our perspective, perception, thoughts and beliefs are of the highest importance...they determine our experience. And we choose them daily. And whether to live from them or not.

Would you consider this in yourself..."I accept I valued FS above marriage." Not as anything bad or wrong...a reality statement? I see this through my own filter...how far I had to go to break in my own life. To break my choice to consistently base my feelings, my life experience on my DH's choices...on his stuff. I betrayed and negated myself at every turn, focused intently on him, his stuff to give myself life...and it took what it took to break me of this routine, which was established long before my DH. Me, signalling myself, through DH. What a twisted road that was...hard for me to explain.

So when I see it in others...especially this statement: "As far as he was concerned, it was everybody else, and he couldn't see for himself, what was obvious to me." I can hear myself...and hear the signal to myself that I was doing the same thing. Can you?

Because basing your choices, not owning them, on what others do isn't reality. And how easy it is to see in others and not in ourselves the very same thing. And not seeing it determines our life patterns, our experience...we don't stop signalling ourselves until we really get our own signals.

You left out influence...when you began the separation, you were removing his influence in your life...and yours from him...and then the dating, the outside relationships came into your marriage...and you left out the outside influences.

And there you were, in tears, believing you were doing that which you did not want to do, in that courtroom, the final time. I'm asking you to break apart that self-myth. You were in a relationship at the time...allowed influence. You were giving reasons for all your choices and not recognizing your choices as your own. Does this resonate? I only bring this up because this pattern will continue...exceptionally under your radar, until you grasp the fullness of all of it. They way you argue with reasoning inside yourself...your own stuff...to choose your life from. "I chose" is a tremendously powerful statement...it is reality. To find all the ways we manuever and manipulate ourselves is how we truly see what we are doing with others in our lives.

Not bad, wrong or defective. Honestly seeing where we allowed influence to advance our own perspective and where we did not.

You did this well in the email from xYBF. You did it well when you remembered toxic girlfriend. Stay there. To see where your own beliefs tripped you up...and to see where you may even self-deceive in understanding what you really want. Identifying what we want purely is our choice.

Do you want any redemption for your past choices? Do you know what you want now purely? Are you accepting of what you want, need, desire as your very own? Do you ask "Who is my master right now?" and are you accepting in yourself enough to answer it?



Was it when he was with YGF this change occurred? Do you, in any secret parts of your mind, think that she changed him where you could not? Do you see where you chose to not articulate, not choose reconciliation as your own goal, not dependent on his response? And you believe in a point of no return...which means living from that belief determines your future? Negates your choices in the present? Limits your power? We have human limits...including the choices we make in our beliefs to limit ourselves further.

Seems like your choices in the last year are based on there not being a point of no return. That there is redemption, reconciliation, even within your own self...for you, by you. If what you are relating comes from your past self...not what you believe now, then I get it. All the more reason to ask yourself "What am I choosing from" right now...because that wasn't who you were then. You did the best with what you knew then...and you know so much more now.



Not dumb choices...I don't believe choices made from self-deception are stuipd...respect them for the cunning, clever, manipulative urges they were...and respect they were about you striving with all you are to get your own attention and focus.

Would you consider God's plan for all of us is to live as we were created? Whole, complete, marvelously made, within our power and limits?



I had no doubt. Sounds like you've made a life of doing a lot of things...your interests...in your way...with awareness. Huge healthy steps on self-fulfillment and companionship. I wasn't implying the opposite. I was wondering how much time you spent on yourself, inward...like the loving mother you are, only to yourself.

And that's a huge difference from your focus being on your H when you were married...all that he would and would not do, think or feel. That was my perspective...from seeing how much he seems to be your focus today...and I wonder what you want back in your life with xH, if you reconcile and remarry.

What would be really different about you and your choices?

And all of what I'm asking here is asking myself, as well. Reminds me that my DH has his own relationships with his sons, which might have been clearer had we divorced. Remains true. Helps me to see the way I get in the way, from both sides. Thank you for being here, for sharing all you do and doing it so well. You help even those who post to you, too.

LA

LA,

Thank you for such an insightful response. I'm going to put my extra-large thinking cap on, because you've given me a truckload of things to think about <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's a good thing - a *very* good thing.

I think I get confused about what I *should* do in keeping with Plan A/180, and what I *want* to do. And I still kind of get conflicting messages here at times about that. I'll address those as you've pointed them out in your post.

I'm going to dissect the post paragraph for paragraph because I don't want to miss anything, and I need to re-read parts again to think and respond, because you've given me *so much* in this particular exchange. Thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate this so much!


Amen. And perhaps I phrased it inappropriately when I said she's "over it" or whatever I said. What I meant was, she doesn't get revved one way or another - whether he comes or not. And before I got home and read this, I was thinking about Pep's suggestion and thinking it was a great one, because it does remove me from the equation - DD is free to choose what *she* wants, and XH is free to decide what *he* wants. Win/win all around.

I've tried to be this way since day 1 with the kids. I'm liberal with the amount of time that XH can spend, and I always give the kids the *choice* of whether to go or not. Friday, XH took them to the library, with the option to stay overnight. XH chose not to keep them Saturday night as he had plans... DS opted to stay over Friday night, DD didn't. They *choose*. So I get where you're coming from on that point, and I think I've been doing that pretty much all along. On the 4th I halfway expected XH to spring a request on me at the last second, and I was unwilling to forfeit a day off with the kids myself, but fortunately he didn't ask so nobody had to go without. I haven't said "no" very often, and when I have, it's only because of a prior obligation that couldn't be changed.


OK then, maybe it was a cop-out on my part. See, I'm still trying to figure out what is "ok" and what isn't... when I read about boundaries etc., I would expect somebody to honour my boundary if I told them, "Do not ask me"... but WAIT... (AHA moment here)... he did not ask me not to ask him again. He told me that he'd declined because he knew how I was feeling and did not want to lead me on. He felt that by accepting my invitations, I would believe that he was receptive to more... and he's right. However, he did not ask or tell me to stop inviting him.

It *would* be different if he'd told me not to do that anymore, correct? That would be a boundary that would be expected to remain "until further notice".


I understand. And no - DD's b'day is not about me. It's about her. And I wasn't trying to make it about me (I know you know that)... but I do understand what you're saying. It's up to DD to invite for her b'day, but if we are talking about another occasion - or non-occasion, if I feel comfortable inviting him, that is within my comfort zone. If he chooses to accept or decline, that's what's within his comfort zone. And when he did decline in the recent past, I did let the answer go. His loss if he doesn't want to share our company <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> His choice. My choice to invite, his choice to decline.... am I getting it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


And choosing to believe what is right now based on the past is flawed thinking too, yes?


I think my problem here is I'm mistaking boundaries for something else - and making that a cop-out. Saying that I won't invite him because he set his boundary... even I have to admit it sounded lame when I typed it (more than once) and it may have been a bit facetious on my part. Still I'm trying to understand how all this fits in to the Plan, and fix what I may have been doing wrong, without breaking what I've been doing right.

And I do understand what you're saying... and like I said above - he didn't ask me *not* to invite him - that would have been a clear boundary. Rather, he explained why he declined invitations... his declining may have been his boundary - but my inviting him did not cross that, since he had the power of choice to accept or decline. Yes?

I do want to respect his boundaries... I think I may be just misinterpreting or assuming what they are. And we know what happens with [censored]/u/me....


Yep, you're absolutely right. Before I'd invite, he'd decline, life went on. And not inviting because I [censored]/u/me he'll say no, not only controls me (my doing based on assumptions)... but it denies him the *choice*, and the possibility that he may accept. And I am not wanting to try and control or manipulate... but I'm accidentally doing that with that way of thinking. OOPS.


Well I appreciated his honesty there. If he'd started accepting my invitations, it would have led me on. I would have believed that he wanted to spend more time with me or us as a family, and that *could* possibly lead down the path to reconciliation. Since he told me that he feels it is "unlikely" that he will feel that way, he declined. He didn't go so far as to say he didn't want to spend time with us - just that he didn't want to lead me to believe there was more to it than that.

So having said that... do you believe it's a good idea to keep inviting him when it feels appropriate? I'm not talking about DD's b'day - I will leave that up to her.. but suppose I'm taking the kids to dinner, is it "ok" to ask him to join us if it feels like a good idea?

Or does that fly in the face of the 180... ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Part of me thinks that "persistence" will pay off. Keep letting him know I'm interested, without being over the top... however the advice I'm receiving here, tells me that I need to move on without him, and if/when he realizes that I may be lost to him "for real" - he may come around (and he may not).

See how this info - which is all good... is conflicting?

My *logic* says that if somebody keeps letting another know that they are interested - without being pushy, that IF the other person comes around and becomes interested too, then all that hinting will pay off.

The psychology of the 180 works in reverse... carry on with life, don't let on you're interested, and they will be dying of curiosity and following you around. That may well be - but I don't think it necessarily applies to everyone. Some folks if they don't think you're interested, they won't bother - even if they are interested. I think my XH may well be like that, given the non-reconciliation during our separation. In hindsight I think there were times when he dropped a few hints but didn't come right out and say it - and at times I would have been receptive, and at other times I may not have been (at least not initially)... but when he thought I wasn't interested, he just shrugged it off and didn't say anything.


No. I don't think so. If it were anger I might though. I don't want to LB or make him angry - but it would be my choice to do or not do something that I know would make him angry. Fear? Well I don't know if he's afraid - he hasn't told me. I don't think he fears me per se... but he *might* fear getting close to me again. But that's just speculation on my part... so I shouldn't do that.


More and more I'm learning that I lived by flying by the seat of my pants!

I don't think I gave too many things that much thought - and here I thought I was the more profound thinker of the pair of us!


I've definitely been guilty of that - still am to some degree, but I'm trying to keep my 'venting' to here (safe place) and not give it a voice with XH, as I work to train myself out of that kind of thinking. I don't think it will ever go away completely.. but I can master it.


That's something to aspire to. Thank you for gifting me with that. I'm going to think about that statement a lot and try to put it into application.


You make it sound so simple - and I suppose it really is, isn't it? Putting it into practice might mean changing some thought patterns and forming new habits... but that's definitely something I can work on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


From experience comes wisdom - so I'm all ears. No two situations are exactly the same - but there's a lot of stuff that seems to be more or less 'universal'. So I appreciate hearing it from your point of view, based on your own experience.


I'm struggling to find a balance between having faith that God has a plan for me, and the free will that He gave me, and using it the way He intended. I do understand what you're saying - we have the power of free will and choice. I also believe that God has ultimate control. That doesn't mean I sit back and wait for God to deliver me a road map and neon sign (although that would help!)... and in fact, your words to me *could* be that neon sign and road map <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And if God did hand me that neon sign and road map - it would still be my *choice* to use them, or not use them.

Since I do believe that the help and support I receive here *is* that instruction manual for what He wants of me, I am choosing to make use of it. For whatever purpose it ends up - *I* will be more whole as a result.


OK.. lost me a bit here... I understand what you are saying about how influences can affect my future... cause and effect. Where it concerns XH however, I don't know how he is making his choices. However if he's closer to me and acts more intimately, I don't understand how that is backwards... unless I'm missing something here.


Hmmm.... that's a poser. I know I cannot control his choices. Have known that for a long time. Yes, I can and do control mine (though clearly I need to be more in tune with myself on that). If I'm basing my choices on "what ifs". then NO I'm not being who I am.

I changed my mind back to wanting my XH back, because the love that was always there for him, returned when HE returned, not the alien life form that he was when I divorced him. I always wanted the life partner that he was, and is now, but I did not want the person he had become when he was so badly depressed, and love-busting.

I think the changes I am making now, to myself, will make me a better partner to him, if he chooses to give it another go - and even if he doesn't, it still makes me a better person overall. That's something I guess we should all work on, regardless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That makes me feel pretty good! Yep I'd say a part of me (maybe more than 10%) is at the mercy of my feelings, but I am trying to get more in touch with my beliefs, "fix" the ones that I kind of ignored for a while, and improve myself. And yep, you pegged it - that lingering percentage is dragging me down a bit. I'm looking for more knowledge though, knowledge is power, and the power to change for the better. It can be quite a grueling process, can't it? But it does feel good.


Hmm never thought of it quite that way... but yes, that gives my power away doesn't it? Old habits sometimes die hard.



Up to you to choose to live from your code...your own boundaries...for instance, honesty. If you think, "I would like to invite xH to share our dinner" and then you don't, because you then think, "No point to it; he won't accept." Then doesn't that cross your boundary of honesty and respect? Changes your own choice in the present based on his boundary? Changes what you choose from...crosses your own boundary of honesty?[/quote][/quote]

Yep, it certainly does. I think I knew this too - but like I said before, I've been trying to do the "180" and this seems to contradict it.

When I first started posting here, I was advised to maybe flirt a little, fix myself up a bit... *show* him that I'm interested - and I did (and still do - minus the flirting, I'm not really good at that). While it felt a bit strange at first - it felt good... demonstrate that I love him. No crossing anybody's boundaries - just good wholesome "I'm interested" stuff. Then the 180 came in - where I am not supposed to care what he does, not supposed to tell him what I do... be aloof, stand-offish, make like I'm leaving him behind... all in the belief that if he is still interested but resisting... that if he loses sight of me, he'll run to catch up.

Again with the contradictory stuff... flirt with him, then play hard to get (in a nutshell).

I'm not hard to get - he had me with "hello"... and he could again... and now he knows this, so I don't want to play games. I just want to show him that I have grown as a person. I still am who I am inside, who I always was, and always will remain.. but he married version 2.1 and I'm now version 4.0. Working the bugs out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (He's in IT... wonder if he'd appreciate that little joke?!)


Touche. Takes away his power, doesn't it? Doesn't respect his option to change his mind and accept, or continue to decline.. Pretty selfish an self-defeating of me, wouldn't it be?


He changed for the better, yes. The hardest part for me is patience, and failing to understand why he would not choose his wife and family again. And yep, that's a flaw on my part - not respectful of his right to choose. I'm still working on that one - and that is a hard one to accept in the present. I am hopeful that he will choose differently in the future - but that's not here and now. Lots to work on in that department here.


Gee... I don't know. That's something to think about though.


Wow. And here I *thought* that not wanting to cause him discomfort was being respectful..... time to rethink all that.


Good question. Really the inviting is all that I've been able to put out there. He works with me part-time, then we each go our separate ways. Work is work... it's not a "choice" it's an obligation. I choose to try to make the work environment as pleasant as I can, and I see him choosing to do the same. We get along well at work, no stress between us - it's like an understanding. I offer appreciation for what he does. I really don't base any of my actions or words there, pertaining to the job, based on "what ifs"... something needs doing, I will ask him if he's willing to do it. He does it, I thank him. If he can't get to it, I ask our weekend help to do it, or if I am able, I do it myself.. plain and simple.

Work is so much more black and white than an intimate relationship - or a relationship that I'd like to become more intimate.


Perhaps, but to a lesser extent. There was plenty I could have done better in the marriage. I owned part of my share but not all of it, in its downfall. Lately I'm learning that I may have owned more than I admitted at the time. However he's admitted ownership of his stuff too - and during the M and immediately after, he blamed me for all of it. It's nice to hear him acknowledge that - not because "I told you so", but because it makes me feel forgiven for my own junk. I sense that we've both forgiven ourselves, as well as each other, and that's been articulated by both of us.



Well the only time he rubbed my nose in it where GF was concerned, was in mutual AO around the time of the divorce and when she moved here. We both acted like a couple of boors back then.

I don't mention XBF at all (rare exception is to store matters, XBF helped at the shop too, and any reference pertains to work he did - it's business, not personal).

Most of XH's references to GF are incidental. He was using her camera bag...

Really, stuff like that doesn't bother me, and if it does, something benign like that, is just me being too sensitive, so I blow it off. Now, if he was telling me how wonderful she is every day - yeah, then that would cross a boundary with me, and I do think I would be able to politely ask that he not mention her. But I have to say he's been reasonably sensitive in that way (mutual AO sessions notwithstanding), so I'm OK there, and I don't think I'm compromising myself at all. I do have a threshold for mentions of GF, and I don't mind mentions of her kids... her daughter and I got along well when XH would bring her to the shop. She even hugged me. I feel for that little girl - she's had a rough life, and none of it is her fault. But I digress...

So I do feel comfortable in that at this point. He takes his phone calls privately, not in my face about it, he doesn't rub it in... IMO he's being as sensitive and respectful as I would like him to be.


Keep tugging - it's getting through my thick ole skull.


I'm trying! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


OK... how about I say that divorce was what I believed to be the best choice at that point in time, given all the options and consequences? It still wasn't what I wanted... but to safeguard my kids, myself, and the business (and all its creditors, including XH's cousin who is our backer)... I took that bullet willingly because it felt like the least evil of all the choices I had at the time.


OK it's come clean time. Confession time. If I can't be honest with myself and here - I'm a fraud.

There is no legal separation in my state... married or divorced only. To divorce you need to live in a bona-fide state of separation which can be under the same roof, for one month. So for the legal safeguards it was divorce.

As for dating/shacking up before the divorce was final - yep it was adultery. I am guilty of adultery. We are both guilty of adultery. We did not have secret affairs... but yep by definition we committed adultery.

I knew it, I was conflicted about it, and I was weak. I caved in to the dark side, I threw my values out the window and I did it anyway.

I know it was wrong, and I regret it. I've corrected the situation, asked for forgiveness from God, from myself, my kids and even from XH.

Lessons learned.

Now, as it pertains to GF? No. Not even close.

As it has been pointed out to me by several people here... he does not have a ring on his finger. While I was hesitant to 'put on the moves' while GF is still in the picture, I was reminded by several here that an unmarried person is open season.

I have to say that I do admire and respect him staying true to the GF though. If he were cheating on her (with me or anybody else), that would have canceled out most if not all the good.

So his staying faithful to her is a good character trait.

Secondly, he and I are not in a romantic relationship. At this point, it's just friendship. Not an emotional relationship, not a sexual one. His relationship with me is no more involved than any other female co-worker he has. The only difference is that we have 20 years of history and 2 children and a business.

If he was becoming more intimate with me, while still involved with her, that would be another story. Adultery, not by definition, but it would suggest that his character made him somewhat suspect if he was willing to carry on intimate relationships with 2 women at the same time.

He did do this back in ~96 - but once that was over, exposed and reconciled, I never saw that type of behavior in him again. I don't see it now either, and that's a good thing.[/quote]


Points taken. As I stated before, I believe I made the best choice for all concerned, under the circumstances at that time. It wasn't just about FS for the kids and me, it wasn't a typical situation. I still have a lot of responsibility to others, particularly for the business.


No. *I* valued the marriage above all else except God and my children and my husband. However I wasn't able to fix XH (and I didn't try... I did try to encourage him to get help)... At the time, I had to make choices that were best for the kids and me. When XH was driving around high, with recreational drugs in the same car he was transporting the kids in, that put the kids at risk. I cleaned out paraphernalia out of his console (when we switched vehicles for business, I made sure there was nothing in the car that *I* could get busted with)... once he got stopped by the police the day AFTER I got rid of his stash - and thank God I did because if he'd been busted, we'd have lost the kids.

Nothing was worth losing the kids over. My daughter (then 12) had written in her diary, "My life is a living he**. Daddy is stoned on painkillers and Mommy isn't doing anything about it."

Where do you go with that?

Yeah I made choices - tough ones. They weren't what I would have chosen in a better world (not a perfect one)... but I did what I needed to do to protect my kids, and if you wish to juggle semantics, that's OK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I'm not trying to sound argumentative or defensive... because I don't feel a need to defend what I did. It was a stinky choice, and yep, it was my choice, I own it. I still to this day believe it was the right choice for that moment in time.

Everything does happen for a reason - choices or not.



I can relate - but sometimes things are just situational. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, and there isn't much that one can do about it.


I suppose, to a point. I'd like to think that I'm a bit more self-aware and open-minded than some, and more so myself than I used to be.


True - but sometimes we can be backed into a corner... perhaps as a result of our own choices... but backed into a corner nonetheless.


I was adrift on a sea of influence for a while.


Actually, no I wasn't. That relationship ended by mutual consent before the divorce - I'd already been having second thoughts. I approached XH then, he said he'd entertain the notion, but kept GF on the frontburner. I didn't want to be "the other woman", or share with "the other woman" so I proceeded. My relationship resumed again after the divorce when then XBF re-entered my life and I chose to let him back in again. Fool me once, shame on him. Fool me twice, shame on me. What can I say? I was weak. I still have weak moments but I am much much stronger now. I see the weaknesses and I'm working on strengthening them.


I'm working on it... like I said before - all this is a lot to chew on and a lot to grow on. Thanks again for all of this - really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Thanks. I hate being the "bad guy" sometimes... but honestly it felt more good than bad to free myself of those albatrosses.


In some ways I'm still trying to figure out just what it is I want and need.


Well, he was on the meds nearly a year before GF came along. I don't believe that she had anything to do with changing him. Nobody can change another. However he did try to convince me that he changed because of her (!!). No, he changed because he wanted to change, and because he got the medical help that he needed to initiate that. He also had a bit of talk therapy (but he didn't stick with it)..

I had set reconciliation as a goal, but he told me then, "maybe" but his actions showed me that he had no intentions of committing to the marriage, so I went ahead with the divorce before his other choices pulled us into receivership. And emotionally at that moment in time, I had hit the point of no return. So had he (he told me so).

And in keeping with your earlier statement that people change daily - I'm a testament to that. If you had told me at many points in the last 3 years, that right here, right now, I'd be working toward reconciling with him, I'd have told you that you were off your rocker.

So yes - people can change, and never say never. I can also see how I need to apply that to XH too, because while he may not be interested today, he may be interested down the road. And - he may not.


I know enough now not to repeat the same mistakes again. A lot of what I did in the last year or so, came from sheer desperation, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I'm out of that place now.


Sometimes I take the long way to get someplace.


If I knew the answers to God's plan for us - I wouldn't be here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's all I can do to ask for strength and guidance each day, and not fall on my face again.


Yep, I spend quite a bit of time on me. Perhaps more than I should at times. I didn't used to - particularly when the kids were small and more needy... but yes I do spend a reasonable amount of time on just me now. I think we learn that as we get older. When we're younger we're too busy!


That's a good question, and one I've dared to think about and been afraid to dare to think about... if that makes any sense.

We were a team. We still are, at the business. I miss that at home. We were friends, companions, we shared the same goals and dreams, we did things as a family - perhaps not as much as we should have, because we both worked a lot. If I were able to try again - I'd work less, or change the hours to a more family-friendly schedule... the choices I made, and we made, to enable my staying home with the kids, came at the cost of time together as a couple - and if I knew then what I know now...

When it was good, we complemented each other. Not completed - because each of us was a whole person... but we bounced off one another quite well. I don't think we even had a disagreement for the first year we were together. But that was a long time ago and we have changed a lot since then.

Still, I enjoy listening to him - talk, sing, I enjoy watching him work. We had fun going places and doing things - before we had kids we would drive from town to town on weekends in the quest for the ultimate hamburger joint <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Silly things like that. We had *fun*.

When we married, I had every intention of spending the rest of my life with him, and him with me... and so much has happened in the interim. Still, even as things are now, I just have a hard time imagining life without him in it in some way.

Having kids was a serious decision, and one we both took very seriously. I think that reflects in our kids - they are awesome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So much good came out of our marriage - despite all the bad that happened in the mix. I don't know - it's hard to explain, but what I feel for him is just not so easy to put down in black and white. He is my one great love, and always will be - even if we're never together in that way again.


Oh boy... where to begin? There are so many things I'd do differently. I *want* to meet his EN now - whereas when we were drifting apart I used them as a weapon. No more. I appreciate the little things he does now - more than I probably did during the marriage. Even the small EN that he permits me to fill now, come back to me in spades, and he doesn't even know he's doing it.

I keep thinking, if we were both on board with this - things could be better than they ever were.

That makes me both happy as well as sad... happy that *I* know that I'm able to be a much better partner now - but sad that I may never have the chance to show him that. What a roller coaster. Still - I'm showing him in all the ways that I am able to right now. Whether he lets me do any more down the road, remains to be seen - that's *his* choice to make.


That's what it's all about isn't it? Helping each other.

The time you spent on this post was well invested. Thank you... so very much.

JinGA

I'm having a down day. This has *nothing* to do with XH. It's me. It's stress. It's mostly about the business.

I'm trying to sell the business... I've been entertaining a prospective buyer for a few months now. He's had the paperwork (financials, business plan etc.) for over a month. I spoke with him 10 days ago and he was supposed to get back to me last week - and he didn't. I tried to call him this morning and left him a message.

I've gently told him that I *NEED* him to make a decision - either make an offer and let's light this candle, or tell me NO and I'll list it with a broker.

The business survives - but it needs more money to push it to the next level, and I don't have that money. He does - and he sees the potential - and any prospective buyer would. XH and I started the business 5 years ago with 1/3 the normal budget for such a venture, and 2 years in we expanded, doubling our space. It's been a struggle - but we're still here - but we're treading water.

All of the burden of administering the business is mine. XH comes in, does grunt work, goes home. Out of sight, out of mind. Meanwhile I live and breathe the place 24/7, keeping all the balls in the air - or at least trying to.

I love what I do - it's a hobby turned business - but the pressure of keeping it going from the "back office" is tremendous.

If this prospective buyer doesn't go or get off the pot this week, I am going to have to list it with a broker, and that will cost me 10% of the selling price - if and when a buyer is found.

I'm doing my best here - and I keep telling myself that God will see us through this, I just need to keep plugging forward. I'm just discouraged - and that's not a good thing.

My DD knows I'm a bit down today - and she reminded me that I'm not as alone as I'm feeling today. She said, "You've got me, you've got DS, you've got Daddy," and she named off a pile of family and friends who have been my rock of moral support for many years. She's right. I shouldn't be in this pity party.

Today the shop is closed (as it is every Monday) - I went in to do my orders and such, bank and post office run, and helped a customer who needed something urgently so I waited for her to come pick up what she needed. I'm home now - and will likely go out with the kids later and that will help take my mind off my troubles, at least for a little while, then it will all start up again tomorrow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What's my point? I don't know.. I just needed to vent a bit.

I'm envious a bit of XH. He doesn't stress or care how the business does... he's basically just doing what he enjoys, when he needs to, and he's waiting in the wings for the payoff if/when it sells. He doesn't ask how sales are, doesn't ask if I've heard anything from the prospective buyer - sometimes I wonder if he really wants to sell his shares...

I need to sell the business for several reasons - I'm trapped by the business. Financially. Selling it would allow us to pay off its debts and best case scenario, have a few bucks each left over for a nest egg. The business does not pay me - it can't afford to, but I work there too many hours as it is, I can't get a second job to actually earn income. The kids and I live on child support and XH pays the mortgage as part of our property settlement, but that settlement is nearing the end of his obligation to it, and I'm feeling the pressure of what happens "next".

If I can sell the business, I'll be fine. The man who wants to buy the place (if he follows through) wants me to stay on for a salary (to be discussed)... that would be ideal for me because it's close, it's convenient, I can still do what I love, without all the burden of my name being on the financial obligations. And if he doesn't buy - whomever buys it may not want to keep me on - and that's fine, I can find another job elsewhere. I'm not afraid of either eventuality there.

I am concerned that if I can't find a buyer soon, and my support lifeline ends (the property settlement), I'm going to be screwed. I can't walk away from the business - we'd both go bankrupt and lose everything.

The best option is to sell it - and I'm trying - I'm just not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel yet. And I would hate to see 5 years of our hard work down the tubes.

It's not as doom and gloom as I'm making it sound - the business would be a good investment for somebody, and I should be proud of what we've accomplished.

It's just that some days (like today) I feel the weight of the world on my shoulders.

This too, shall pass. I've left a message for the interested party. If he doesn't call today, I will call him again tomorrow, and the next day, until I speak with him. At that point I will let him know that if he's not prepared to move on this (I've been plenty patient - I know this sort of purchase is not a split-second decision) but he's had more than enough time to contemplate it, and if he's not going to bite, I need to get my paperwork back and enlist a broker.

It will all turn out as it's meant to.

When I get down about this sort of thing, I try to think about another situation we went through 9 years ago.

XH took work in another city - in fact another country (where we are now). When we bought our house back home, we bought it 7 days after it hit the market. The previous owner bought it 10 days after it hit the market. Easy sale - so we thought. It was winter when we listed it - not many people buy homes there in the winter... so we figured it would be 3-6 months before we sold, closed and moved.

WRONG.

3 months turned into 6 months (in those first 3 months was when I discovered XH's EA... old chat logs on the computer). We had our crisis - D-day, exposure (even though it was supposedly over at that time and they were 'just friends'). I had no idea about MB, but NC and exposure just seemed logical to me. We spend 5 days together, I made an emergency trip here to spend time with then H and figure out what I was going to do - forgive, or leave. I chose to forgive, we repaired, he repented (and to my knowledge he never repeated). 6 months turned into one year. That first Christmas when we had 2 households turned out to be the last healthy Christmas my stepfather had - and I'm not one to entertain, but I held Christmas dinner. We'd taken him to a Christmas tree farm and he had the time of his life, and spoke of it for months to come, to anyone who would listen.

A year turned into 18 months, and my stepfather got sick. 19 months in, he was admitted to hospital, and did not return home. He was in hospital for just over 3 months. He was dying. During all that time my kids and I got to spend a lot of time with my mother and stepfather - many good memories were made while he was still healthy, and I was there to love and support both of them through his illness.

My stepfather (who was significantly older than my Mom), wanted to live to see Y2K. During the holidays of 1999, his condition worsened. He was still lucid, they kept him comfortable, and my Mom spent every day at his bedside making sure he was in his own pajamas, that he was clean and shaven.

My stepfather died at about 1:30 AM on January 1, 2000. He got his wish.

Four days after his memorial service, I started getting all kinds of activity on my house. Nobody buys in the winter - but I had showings galore, people coming 2 and 3 times. One person wanted to make an offer but it was so low, my realtor wouldn't write it up.

On February 28, we had a contract. We moved on April 27.

Some time during those last few months, I had an AHA! moment.

If my home had sold quickly and I'd moved 1000 miles away as quickly as *I* wanted to - I would not have been there for my Mom and stepfather during those last few months. By the time I moved, my Mother had processed most of her grief, and I went, knowing that she was going to be OK.

God knew my work at home wasn't done yet back in early 1998. He needed me to be there for my Mom and stepfather.

I couldn't see the logic in God's plan while it was happening to me - but *after* the fact, it all became clear, and I was grateful for all that extra time with my stepfather and being able to be there for Mom...

So any time I find myself asking, "Why?" I think about what happened during those 2 years. I remember that at the start and in the middle, and even toward the end of that chapter of my life, I had no idea *why*... but at the end of it, I was glad that things had turned out as they did. They were hard times - living with my family in 2 separate households, having to manage a large property alone, we heated with wood so all that manual labour was mine... and H came home only one weekend a month, and that was hard on all of us. But I wouldn't trade in that extra time with my loved ones for anything.

So I just need to keep reminding myself that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be right now, today. My journey may not make sense to me at times, but there's a purpose to all of it, the good, as well as the bad.

God has provided me with so much... loving family, good friends, awesome kids - and yes, even XH... and lots of resources to draw on, like MB, and prayer, and other things in my life that just seem to keep me going.

God has never failed me yet, He won't fail me now. I just need to hold on to that belief, and remind myself of this when I start to feel crappy about things.

I *will* get where I'm meant to go.

I think I just made myself feel a little bit better...

JinGA

self-soothing is pretty cool

Thanks - it helped yesterday. I think I was funky because I had a bizarre dream involving XH and some sort of tragedy - I don't remember the particulars, but I woke up feeling huge anxiety and I kind of went downhill from there.

DS and I went out for most of the afternoon and evening, geocaching - had some fun, so that got my mind off things a bit. We'll probably do that again for the early part of the day today (store is open a half-day today), but then I am stuck at work for too many hours for the rest of the week.

The hardest times are at work when it's slow - I brood a lot then and I focus on stuff and I'm working to try to re-train myself out of that habit but it's not easy. Idle mind starts working overtime on things I can't do anything about, and that's when I get into trouble.

I feel like I'm losing any hope that XH will ever want to try. GF has been gone for nearly 3 months, but the relationship shows no real signs of ending. It just "changed". Connection still seems strong, although he hasn't planned that trip yet.

DD had some ideas for her birthday and I shared my ideas with her.

On the Friday night we'll go to dinner, 3 of us, her best girlfriend and her boyfriend. She wants to invite XH too and that's just fine with me. After that, we'll go to the HP release party. If either her best friend or boyfriend aren't allowed to be out past midnight (I totally respect parents' curfews) we'll shuttle either or both home before the party, and XH's attendance at that is at his option too.

Then on the Saturday night, DD suggested we BBQ at XH's. He lives in an apartment complex but it has an outdoor pool and a grill. We'd just have to bring the food - grill out and hang by the pool. I don't know if XH will go for this - and/or if he'll want me included - but DD wants just the 4 of us there.

I agreed these plans are very good, and suggested she talk to her father about them and let me know what the final plan is.

I worry a bit about XH becoming resentful. Resentful that he can't just pick up and move to GF. Resentful of the kids, resentful of me, resentful of the business. I'm trying to dispose of the business (but if he was in such a hurry to get rid of it, he'd be "helping" with that, IMO).

I wonder sometimes too if he doesn't get resentful of the GF for making him choose... I would think so, but I'm not seeing that.

He doesn't appear to be resentful. He was pretty matter-of-fact when we spoke of moving and he told me it was never really an option. I suppose he'd be more likely to do that when the kids are grown up and in college or whatever - but that's 5 years away for the younger one. Somehow I doubt that a LD relationship will survive 5 more years.

Should I just give up? I mean - I feel what I feel - I can't shut that off. The Plan A habits I've picked up have stuck, I'm not about to change the way that I interact with him, because that makes things a lot easier, and I enjoy the way he seems to respond (albeit in a limited way) to what I've learned. I'm not about to regress. I just think that perhaps I really am beating a dead horse.

Despite things he does that seem to show that there's still love there for me, we're no closer to a reconciliation or even a date night, than we have been since I decided to make a concerted effort. If we'd tried even once after we separated, and it still didn't work, then I could more easily accept that it's truly over. Fact is, we never got it together to do that. I remember my parents tried one more time after they divorced - it was a disaster. I didn't find out about it til years later - they went away for a weekend (my father was shacked up with someone else at the time - he cheated on her with my mom!)... but at least they both knew for once and for all that it was done.

If I could just get a foot in the door... sometimes I feel like my foot is in the door, and other times I feel like the door has been slammed on my foot - ouch. In my heart I believe that if we could just get one more shot at it, I could show him how much better a partner I've become. If only...

People here have said that when they abandoned all hope, "things changed." Some mean that their (ex) or (fww) spouse came around, some found somebody else, others managed to become more independent. I'm not interested in looking for anyone else - I'd be a crappy partner since I still carry the big torch for XH... it's just hard to let go of that last shred of hope.

What to do?

It would be so much easier to move on if he was hateful, bitter, angry, difficult to get along with. I am glad he's none of those things... but when you're faced with someone who's so easy to get along with, seemingly so caring, but you can't go to that next step, it's incredibly frustrating.

I know that even if GF is out of the picture that does not guarantee that he'll look my way again, but it would improve the odds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Wish I knew just what it was that GF has that keeps him hanging on. It's strong mojo, whatever it is.

JinGA

JinGA,

I read you thread and feel you're being held hostage by your feelings towards your ex. No, you can't help how you feel towards him NOW, but you should work on moving on.

If he comes around, great. If he doesn't, then you're not wasting your time hoping he does.

Do I want to see him do so? Yes, of course. I'd be happy for you. But I do feel you're being held hostage by your feelings. You need to find ways to let go and start living.

Should you date right now? No. But I do feel you should find ways to let go of him and be content being alone with no relationship before you date again. You may always feel something for him and the fact that you work with him and have a friendly relationship will keep you from moving on faster than if he was a butt head who fought you all the time. I'll admit that I would have had a much tougher time moving on if my ex had been warm and friendly towards me, but she's made it awfully easy to get over any remaining feelings of goodwill with her latest false allegation stunts.

Your ex will not come around till you give up hope and move on. THAT's when he will.

Please, vent here, let us know your feelings, but move on. Grieve his loss and let go. You're holding your breath and not living. This is a constant cloud.

Can you change how you feel? Not overnight. It will take a conscious effort and an everyday struggle. It's like being fat. You shed the weight through working on it every day. Your ex husband is emotional fat. You won't shed that fat overnight and you'll feel it for a while, but you need to find a way to try to get rid of it.

I only say this because you are being held back from living by this and from truly being happy.

You've let him know how you feel. He's not responding for now. Pick up and move on without looking back. Make him chase you if he does come around.

Seriously, he'll freak if he realizes you're moving on. Eventually, you'll get to a place where you'll be open to dating and that will make him freak as well.

Then again, it may not. How long are you willing to hold your breath?

That's the irony... I've already been there, done that. Let go, got involved with someone else... that ended, approached XH... he waffled, I let go, divorced, picked up again with the same guy... that fizzed, I ended it. I've been on my own 6 months and until I saw a crack in XH's R, I was able to keep my feelings in check.

Once the possibility of him becoming "available" presented itself, I allowed my heart to really open up to him again.

He's not "available" - he's still "involved".

He just told me by email this morning (I just read it because I was out) that he is going camping back home instead of out west - but will likely go out west in the fall (well there's time to change his mind about that too LOL!). He's in a conundrum because he wants to take the kids (which would be fine with me) but one starts band activities next week and they go back to school on August 6 so summer is effectively over.

Should he take one and not both? Methinks not - and so does he - I don't know what the right answer is there. He hasn't mentioned this to the kids and I won't either.

IMO he should go alone - get himself sorted. But I'm hardly unbiased here.

As for not living - yeah I'm living - one day at a time. I'm not sitting rotting waiting for something to happen, but emotionally I'm kinda stuck and not sure how to get unstuck. I am keeping busy - DS and I spent the morning and early afternoon out again. I have to go to work in a little while.

JinGA

Yes, you're living, but you're stuck emotionally.

How soon after the D did you hook up with someone else?

This is an important question. I've seen in my divorce group that some people are afraid of being alone.

I never realized how being alone could be very liberating. I no longer feel dread about it.

Sure, I'd like to have someone special in my life, but I'm ok that I don't and I certainly don't want my ex back.

I guess I'm suggesting to you to try to find a way to get to that point. Get to where you feel indifferent about whether or not he wants to come back. If he does, great. If he doesn't, that's fine too.

I'm sure there's other men who could be just as fullfilling to you.

I'm certainly enjoying meeting smart, independent women who don't need me but are happy to have me in their lives.

See, I latched on too quickly to someone else. That was my mistake. I wasn't happy being alone.

Get to that point. It will require letting go of him. It will be liberating. Prince charming might be right in front of you but you can't see him because you're hoping your confused ex will find his way back to you.

Then again, I'm not suggesting you date. Let go of him and be happy being alone for a while. No relationships. Simply focus on the kids.

Hard to do so without thinking about or involving the ex, I know.

Jin,

Just keep doing what you are doing. It is okay to be "stuck" on him, still. It is okay to love someone and hope that someday you will be reunited. Just don't let it become an obsession, or a constant source of dispair.

You control what you think about, Jin. You don't have to be scared of your feelings, you can change them if you need to.

I think you are going through some stuff you avoided by dating right away. And I think that this time around you are going to be very happy regardless, very soon, I really do.

It was probably 6 or so months post-separation that someone flirted with me and I flirted back. Within a few months of that I was involved. XH followed suit with his GF a few months after I started "flirting".

I'm not afraid of being alone - even though I was still married, I survived 2 years of mostly alone so I know I'm OK with it.

I don't feel desperate like if I don't have somebody I won't be whole - not at all. I know I'm fine on my own. It's hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean.

My father is one of those people who can't manage alone. He's capable of taking care of himself and his home and all - he just can't stand being on his own. I'm not like that.

My mom didn't remarry for 25 years... she saw people, some serious, many not so serious - but I have had a good example shown to me that "you're better off alone".

I do need to just let it go... maybe he's just not worth it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I feel the same brokendreams. I am very glad for the years I spent alone, and looking back I was really very happy. I learned to cook, to garden, I worked out all the time, I hung out with my DD, and this is the biggy... I DREAMED of my future and what may lay in store for me. It was really a very good time in my life.

Yes, what weaver said.

Many of us make the mistake of dating right away.

You're likely going through the normal letting go process.

Thanks, Weaver and BD.

I know I'll be OK. I've been OK. I'm trying to spend less and less time thinking about him... and for a while I didn't think of him at all - even after I ended my relationship.

I guess it's coming back to bite me in the hiney...

Things will be easier if/when I can dispose of the business. Then I'll truly be on my own. I won't have to depend on him for financial support (except for CS), and I'll have my own income (instead of working 70 hours a week for "free") and I won't have to depend on him to do things in the biz.

I haven't asked him to do *a thing* around the house in at least 2 years, and I think the last time, he offered. I don't ask - I have other friends who can help, or I figure it out for myself. I only ask for the business, and it's usually something he tinkered with in the first place.

JinGA