Brutschm - Let's begin at the end of your post and work from there.

" What is my marriage worth to me? It is not worth dying for physically or emotionally...

Let me submit that had Christ had that attitude for His "bride," you and I would be in a world of hurt for all of eternity.

It is something that you really need to think about, because if that IS truly how you feel, then your wife would be right in "letting you go" because that is NOT married for life or for love, it is married only "until you no longer feel like being married."

Think long and hard about his, Brutschm. Surrendering your life to God is something that affects your whole life. Would you die for Christ if it was needed?

Just how important IS your relationship with God, in Christ, to you?

These are fundamental questions that will determine a lot. While you are thinking about this, add the question "what does 'not my will but yours' be done" mean to you?



Okay, what I get from your postings is that you are a believer and want to learn what it means to live your life for God instead of self. Is that right? What follows is based on that assumption, so if it is not what you want, then please say so. I'm going to jump around in your post rather than try to answer your questions sequentially, so bear with me.




If you DO see adultery as a choice, then there is still much work to do. It is NOT the consequences that come with sin that should be concerning you as much as the fact that you, as a "bought and paid for" adopted child of God, do NOT have the right to make choices in opposition to God's clear commands. Thou shalt NOT commit adultery is NOT a suggestion, it is a command. That you have the capacity to make a choice IS a God-given gift, but here is where Romans 6 comes dramatically into play.

"What shall we way then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

…

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Rom.6:1-4; 11-14, NIV)

IF you think that adultery IS something you see as a "choice," kidding yourself that if you think you "accept" the consequences as justification for making the choice TO commit adultery, then you stand in opposition to God. Is that where you really want to stand? Do you want to believe the same lie that Satan told Eve, "God didn't really mean what he said, you will not surely die?"




Let's take these questions one at time to hopefully add some clarity.

With the boundaries thing, because I made a mistake, and admittedly a horrible mistake, does God want me to be guilty for the rest of my life over it and not learn and move on from it?

No, God does not want you to "feel" guilty for the rest of your life, but you ARE guilty of adultery. There is not "erasing" or "expunging" that FACT. God DOES want you, as a convicted, repentant, sinner, to learn that "fire" does, in fact, burn and have consequences. He wants you learn that humble obedience to His commands and teaching are the proper responses for believers who ARE learning. You have sinned against at least two very important people, God and your wife. God grants forgiveness to all who are in Christ for ALL of their sins, including adultery. God does NOT, in graciously granting His forgiveness, remove all consequences for the sin, even though it IS forgiven.


When is enough enough? The rest of my life?

Well what do you think is the answer to that question? Consequences that attended King David's adultery attended him of the rest of his life, yet God also blessed him in other areas because God HAD forgiven him. What "enough" are you referring to?


Should I just live with her and support her while she goes out clubbing, becomes an alcoholic, and emotionally abuses her kids and me for the rest of our lives.

I'm assuming your wife is also a Christian, so my comments here are guided by that assumption. As you earlier said that "Humans can make any choice they want," your wife COULD choose to live in disobedience to God. But understand that as a child of God, God WILL discipline those He loves as His children, and that includes your wife. It is YOUR "task" as the spiritual head of your household to stand for God's teaching and to work with your wife on conforming your individual lives, and your marriage, to one that brings honor and glory to God, not disrepute. This is not a "Boundaries" issue, this is a "Standards" issue.

Think of Hosea's taking Gomer for his wife. It was clear that he did so in obedience to God's command and in a spirit of "I will love her to me."

Your wedding vows are in many ways like that. It gives "love" not only for the "good things" but also for the "bad things." This is where love and endurance meet, unless the spouse decides to LEAVE.

Understand that at this point, the "leaving" choice is ALL your wife's to make. It is NOT a choice you have. Jesus granted the right of divorce to the Faithful Spouse, not to the Unfaithful Spouse. That your wife is having a mighty struggle with what was done to her IS pounding hard on HER Boundaries. That she is reacting "negatively" is understandable to many who have been in her "shoes" even though her reactions are wrong and disobedient to God.


Yeah I make a terrible mistake, I'm human. But Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, so if we fail to forgive, in this case fail to forgive myself, aren't I forsaking Gods will for me?

You are, it appears, confusing forgiveness of sin with NOT having to deal with the consequences OF the sin. The two are not the same. Let me try to give you an example that may help to see this. The thief that Jesus forgive, who was dieing on a cross next to Jesus, HAD his sins forgiven, but the consequences of his sin, as they applied to "this world," remained. It is God's will that no one should die, but the consequence of sin is that in this world, we all will die, even though our sins are forgiven.

When Jesus told Peter that a believer is to forgive "seventy times seven times" when a brother in the Lord sins against you and then comes to you and says, "I repent," Jesus was NOT saying that the consequences were always removed. They CAN be, but not always. In some cases the consequences CANNOT be removed. It is NOT a case of erasing the sin, it is forgiving the sin as God has forgiven MY sins.





You do so by imitating Christ and how HE responded to attacks on him.

You do so by believing God's promise of Romans 8:28-29.

You do so by surrendering your will to God's will and accepting His provision for DOING what seems "impossible" that He promised to believers in Philippians 4:13.

You CAN do this. You can do it because God enables you do it WITH His strength.

How long is "long enough" for a woman to recover from being raped?

Think of it the same way. You "raped" your wife against her will and NOW you want her to simply "get over it?" The psychological and emotional wounds are DEEP. Craziness in behavior is sometimes one of the consequences. But you LEAD and HELP by being steady in the face of craziness, by showing her by your commitment to God, not by your words, that you ARE becoming a "man of God," worthy of her respect and love.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Have you heard that one? Trust is gone and it will NOT be rebuild by your words or by "lecturing her" on the Bible. You have not "earned" that right yet. Earning trust will take a lot of time and it will be your faithfulness, your eliminating thoughts like seeing adultery as a legitimate choice, your endurance of her screwed up thought processes, your becoming someone who LIVES for God, humbly, not demandingly or threateningly.

This is a LONG process. Are you committed to seeing it through.

Wanting a "different" path is NORMAL. Even Jesus wanted a different path than the cross and separation from God. But AS Jesus, we acknowledge our wants and then place them subservient to God's will.

Trust God. Not yourself, not your wife, not me, not anyone else. ONLY God is completely trustworthy and NOT susceptible to human emotions and giving the emotions "control."

Finally, recovery from adultery IS HARD! Thank God that you have that as even a possibility. In the past you would have had that chance because you would have been dead and your wife would have been "freed" from the marriage.

The consequence of death has been removed, but now the very real consequences that are left must be dealt with. God has not left you "hanging" though. He is there WITH you as you seek to begin a life that leaves disobedience and sin behind and begin to start living FOR Him. Nothing you are facing is "new" to God. Furthermore, Jesus felt it all and KNOWS, from a very practical vantage point, just how it DOES feel. Surrender to God and bring all your fears and worries TO God and enlist His aid. Don't just "say" you are believer, believe it and live it from this day forward.


God bless.

OK...FH. I've just read your post, and am trying to disinter it into ACTIONS that the poster can take. I haven't been able to do so.

What are the SPECIFIC ACTIONS that you're recommending that he take at this point?

When I think of giving the spouse "space" in this context, it is not the physical space of separation, but the absence of lovebusters and being a giver, putting the taker on hold for a time and exhibiting love.

Not easy, but it is a exercise in your own self-control.

What is her specific behavior toward the boys that you feel is so damaging? Is she yelling at them? Ignoring them? Deriding them?

You say 'abuse'. Is she slapping them around? Shoving them away? Being physical?

One of your absolute boundaries should be protecting your children. If she is actually abusing them, then she doesn't belong in the home.

You say "The boys should not have to see their Dad sit in agony"

I agree, don't sit there in agony for them to see. You own that behavior. Do something with them. Play ball, read a book outloud, take them to the park, start a project, rearrange the furniture.

You'll feel better if you are doing something rather than sitting shellshocked while she's out.

If she is already out of the house because of separation, how do they know she is out clubbing or hungover? They don't need to know the details of where mom is, they are just little kids.

Plan B is very tough to arrange when you have kids. It requires that you have an intermediary person/place for visitation so you don't interact. Nor do you interact at the kids' activities/lessons/games.

Yes.


If she lived with us, these would be the boundaries I would want. This is part of the reason I don't think it is best for her to live with us while she is choosing to live this way. They don't necessarily know that mom was out clubbing and is hungover (I NEVER talk bad about her around the kids, in fact, I openly tell the kids that daddy hurt mommys feelings very bad), which might actually help them understand why mom is all of a sudden treating them as in the first quote. Without knowing why mom is doing this, they are suffering even more pain because they internalize it as they are being bad kids.


This I MAY be able to do. OMGosh will this be the HARDEST test and the most extreme effort to love her above my self.

I will definitely have to pray about this...and pray, and pray, and...



Makes sense...

Please keep posting. I believe/still believe that I have to establish the boundaries for my children's sake. "My pain to recovery is temporary, but denial and its consequences are forever." I will have to deal with the pain, and hide it from my boys for their sake. If she does not want to abide by the boundaries, then she cannot live with us. The kids do not have to suffer her inability to cope and seek proper help.


Thank you. I'll keep posting as I firm up my decision and what to do. She comes home Thursday and plans to move back in. Hey, maybe she will have changed her mind and doesn't want to live with me! Then I have no choice to make. Except to state my beliefs that that is not the best road to take, and leave it at that.

Thanks,
B

Owl - I'm not at all sure what you are asking for. I gave some specific actions, but they apparently were not what you were looking for. So help me out here, do you want what many have referred to as "my way or the highway" sorts of action recommendations or something other than being Christ's "stand in" in the marriage?

Are you looking for a "do A, B, and C" sort of thing and you WILL get the recovered marriage you hope for?

It would help if you gave a little guidance in what sort of specific action areas you are looking for Specific Actions to be brought to bear.

Ok, here is how my NEW plan is forming.

I REQUEST to talk with her before she moves back in. I have the kids away in case things get ugly.

I state I love her and parts or most of the Plan B letter that I posted earlier.

Express that I DO want her living with us, but there are some boundaries that I must establish in order to protect our children from further harm.

I state the boundaries with the care of the kids as mentioned earlier. Again, I cannot and do not wish to control her, but express to her that I feel this is not the way to solve our problems and that I am there to help if she would like. She is still free to choose to do this, but if she does, I will need her to plan to stay with friends so that the kids do not have to suffer the effects of the mistreatment due to her hangover/tiredness.

I state that I would like her to not seek other men while we are still married because it would tear me apart and I don't want her to make the same mistake I did and devalue herself because of what I have done to her. I empathize with her pain, and let her know that I will not give up on our marriage. I clearly communicate to her that this is what I would like, but she is still free to make her own decision. (not controlling, but expressing love for her)

And leave it at that. No ultimatums, no control, just stating some boundaries that are best for the kids.

Then my part if she still chooses to move back in, is to avoid LBs, focus on taking care of the boys and ignoring her destructive behavior and not picking and self-pitying to try to get her to change. Own my reactions to her behavior and keep them from being her problem, and believe that Gods will will be done and give the outcome to Him.

What am I missing, or where am I going wrong?

Thanks,
Brandon

Your 5:46pm post sounds like you are headed in a positive direction.

One of the things I decided in our successful reconciliation was that putting forth the hard effort to make the recovery possible was something I wanted to do. And, with 6 failed reconciliations, even coming to the conclusion was very difficult.

But it was true.

My optimal outcome in my mind was a recovered marriage and having a healthy, intact family. My daughters were 10 & 12 with our first separation, 12 & 14 at our reconciliation.

I planned to do my part to make getting back on track possible. And, I made up my mind that I would not regret the time I put into it, should it not happen as I hoped.

Much as Foreverhers has posted, I planned to be the wife God had intended for me to be. My prayer for my husband was that he would be the man and husband that God intended for him to be as well.

I don't know what your W is doing on this cruise, but again, I dated during the divorce process, believing, at the time my marriage was over after 2 very bad years,even in some ways wanting the marriage to be finished...indeed burning the bridge. I am glad I was not successful in severing my marriage. Still my H & I had to deal with the issues arising not only from his co-worker A, but my unwise choices.

Keep your faith, and hope, alive. God will guide you through this, if you seek & listen.

LOR (Lor),

I've been on MB nearly every day since I registered and just saw your name for the first time when Jo called you out. According to your history, you haven't posted on MB since last Dec., so I wanted to say "Welcome Back" from a newbie who is so thankful you've chosen this thread.

OWL, I've never posted to you but your thoughts have been helpful to me on this and many other threads.

FH, I appreciate your insights. Thanks for your input on this and other difficult threads. Your encouragement to trust God before, during and after our human efforts, is needed but often forgotten in the frenzy.

BRANDON,

I was a little nervous that after I posted, it seemed you decided your M was not worth it. But your 'venting' seems to have given way to "a positive direction" as Lor pointed out.

B, you seem to be sincerely seeking, and as Lor said, God will guide you through as you seek AND LISTEN AND ACT.

Focusing on the children's best interest can be your guiding 'litmus' test. Boundaries to protect them are imperative. Our adult "offspring" (can't call them children anymore) said that they loved us but they had to let their dad and me work this out....they didn't want to be involved....did not want to take either side but wanted to SEE and HEAR positive results if and when they happened.

Our children are a big part of the reason we are still together. We did not necessarily stay together FOR them, but their challenges bought time for us to make the right choices. Your children are too young to realize the fullness of your scenario, but they, too will benefit by your making the right choices and committing to doing the hard work for the next several years.

I never intended for you to think I said my H was a doormat; on the contrary, his 'manning-up' kept my respect for him intact and my angry outbursts were kept to a minimum because he owned his actions and apologized for them sincerely...and then acted accordingly for the last 6 months now....and we are still going strong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope I've helped a bit, but sorry I can only lurk and can't post during work. I'll be praying for you.

Ace

By George....

I think he's getting it!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like you've got a good plan. The question is this...how will you ENFORCE those boundaries if she agrees to them to move in, but then violates them once she's moved back?

Beat her! :-)

I don't know. What should I do. I could tell her again that she is violating my boundaries and as much as I love her, I can't allow that to continue. She can change, leave, or I can leave?

What is the MB plan?

There is no 'set' plan for violations of boundaries. That's something that you need to determine and set for yourself.

In my case, I was relatively lucky. My wife only violated the NC boundary a couple of times...each time she did, it was brought up in MC, and it was again made clear to her how that was preventing any kind of healing for either of us. Additionally, I made it clear that any further violation would result in removing the internet access from our home as soon as the kids finished the school year...a matter of days at that point.

Again, since she's not ACTIVELY wayward, it changes what the boundaries and consequences that we'd normally recommend.

I'd say that if she continues to go out and party, cut off her funds for partying. If she continues to be abusive to you, start off by cutting off any conversations/interactions when she becomes abusive, and only resuming them when she's no longer abusive. If she's abusive to the kids, correct her immediately and inform her that if that behavior continues, you'll contact social services and have her removed from the home.

Get some ideas? Again, these are things that YOU need to come up with and have a plan in place to manage...BEFORE she challenges those boundaries.

Advice please:

W,

What I am writing to you now is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I would like for you to live with me and the boys, but it is not healthy for us to live with you while you are not committed to our marriage.

I accept my responsibility in failing you as a husband, and creating our current situation. I am now aware of how I violated you and pushed you to meet my excessive needs above what anyone should have to give. I regret that through our early counseling, I was often not there for the right reasons and so I never allowed myself to grow and change, as I should have, before I made my fatal mistake. I apologize to you for this with all sincerity, and I desperately hope that one day you will forgive me and allow me to give you everything that you have always deserved.

During these last six months, I have learned much about myself and about what I need to do to honor you as a person and make our marriage better, and uphold the vows that I swore to you, but ultimately broke. I have sincerely put forth a great effort to live the values and principles that I have learned, in the limited time we have had together. I know I still have more steps to take, and I am committed to continual improvement as I try to do God’s will, not my own, in all areas of my life. Most importantly, I have learned that there is no one and nothing as important to me as you and the boys.

It has been extremely difficult in this time of physical and emotional separation from you to maintain a connection with you and I thank you for the times you let me into your heart. However, I feel now that I may have already lost you, and nearly every time I see you or talk to you, I feel tremendous excruciating pain knowing you may find someone else, and I can no longer endure that. I know that before you can return to me fully committed to working on our marriage, you have a process to go through. I cannot control that process in any way, nor do I want to, and I will be scared during that time. However, I also cannot bear to live with you during this time and be forced to watch it or even know about it, as it will absolutely shred my heart. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want, but knowing that you would rather not be with me everyday is destroying me.

You are, and always have been, a wonderful mother to our boys. However, when you stay out drinking until early morning, then have a hangover and are tired all the next day, you are not the great mom that the boys know and love, and I do not what them to think any less of you, because of the pain that I have caused you.

I love you, and will always love you with all of my heart despite what my actions have shown over the last year. To this day, I remain emotionally and physically attracted to you. You are the love of my life, my only love. I remember all the things I experienced with you that made me fall in love with you – our first date, our first touch, our first kiss, our first overnight, our first time. I believe that God has a plan for us, and that he gave us DS7 and DS5 for a reason. I hope you will be sitting beside me, holding my hand, as we watch our sons one day graduate from high school and college and even get married. I want our marriage to be a model of what they should seek in their own marriage. I am confident that when you can fully commit to our marriage, we can overcome the problems that I have unfairly caused for you, and take the necessary steps to create a new loving marriage in which we are both fulfilled. I hope that, with time, I can begin to create new and better memories with you that will help relieve the trauma that I have caused you. I am certain that through God, everything is possible and, if reconciliation and forgiveness can ever be accomplished, I believe strongly that it is the best outcome for you, me, and especially our children.

I know the path is narrow that we must walk in order to rebuild our marriage and I hope that you will choose someday to walk it with me.

With Love,


brutschm

It's a holiday, B, and there will be fewer responses.

Your letter is a start. What steps accompany it?

What does "choosing to walk with me" entail?

What boundaries will you set? How will you enforce?

Study Mulan's "Boomerang Relationship" link attached to her sig line as passive agressiveness aka 'gaslighting' could be a huge factor in your M dysfunction that led to your A and her recent actions.

Keep being patient and studying and reading and asking for help. It seems you're on the right track....but I'm also a newbie so I'm open to learning along with you.

Ace

Ok, this COMPLETELY PISSED HER OFF! She keyed into the little paragraph about the kids and her drinking and denied that it exists. But, its the truth, I can't help if she is denying it. So, she said she is moving back in and that I can't stop her.

SO, now on to everyone's suggestions before. PLAN A, pray for strength to rise above the situation and self and protect the kids, while dealing with her anger. Pay CLOSE attention to the affect on the kids, if I see it is too much for them, then I will have to bow out for the sake of the kids.

Let me know if this sounds ok...

Well I have not been following your thread lately but I can tell you that a father leaving his family for the sake of the kids is the most convoluted thing I've heard in years.

How can you ever think that leaving your kids is what is best for them unless you are an abusive parent?

I agree that a father leaving on the surface is horrible. But, if the tension and anger between the mother and father is so bad that it affects the kids, that is when it would be time to leave. Not leave the kids, but change the situation. That is what I was saying.

it is horrible ON and UNDER the surface


When we say something is best for a situation, then we add "but", this usually precedes our show of weakness


or time to FIX the problem !


Change your behavior not your location .... unless you are so angry you may become dangerous.

Pay attention to her actions and not her words. She acted PO but she returned home.

Start Plan A when she gets home and think about how to enforce your boundaries

Ace, thanks for the kind words.

Brutsch, the last paragraph of your letter is so lovely, I almost teared up. Possibly because H & I have had the opportunity to see our children graduate and leave the nest. But, your wife probably never got that far, since she keyed in on the drinking part.

So, how does she act now after her cruise? Willing to talk about it? Give details? I suspect she did a lot of drinking, since she does at home clubbing and is defensive about it.

So, she wants to move home. I tend to think that gives you a better chance to show her your Plan A. How about counseling? What about her party schedule? You still have the same line to walk between controlling and requiring respectful discourse.

I also don't quite understand how you bowing out is good for the kids. Being a parent is part of your responsibility whether the marriage survives or not.

Something you may want to try when she gets angry is to end the discussion for a time out kind of thing. A ten minute break, a quick walk outside, around the house, around the block, separate parts of the house, whatever gives you a moment to firm up your resolve in the face of her anger and might give her a moment to manage her anger. Or gather more ammo, be prepared for that as well.

When you have discussions, try to keep them on the present and not dig into the bag of old hurts.

Gather your strength & resolve.