Sis should have been talking to SH first - and then you would have an argument. IF she had been acting under the advice and guidance of a professional instead of doing her own will, then there might be something to talk about.

Motivations are everything. Her motive was not based on sound advice - it was based on her own self-will - which got her into trouble in the first place.

THIS whole thing, as far as I can tell, was a step back for Sis in her own personal growth.

As a father, I have NO PROBLEM with Lilsis involving her kids int he discussion. This is important to them as well.
BR... you do the math, Dr. Harley never experienced marital recovery either. Your comments are rude to say the least and coming from you that is a big surprise. Usually you are fair and thoughtful...your math here does not add up.

Lilsis;
Thank god you have the strength that you do. Because your husband needs you. He needs you to help him recover himself.

And you are the only one who can do it. He is paralyzed with fear of making the wrong decision. He is surrounded by conflict-avoiders who do not impose consequences on him. His only influence has been RT requiring action from him.

Start the dialog with Steve Harley. Help him find his way home and find himself again.

Sis, your confrontation opened this door. Now do something about it.

BR speaks to what I wanted to say..was trying to say last night...

I pray that you listen to her...

Yes, I broke PLAN B but when I did I came back here and got slapped by MANY 2X4s and the break PROLONGED my H's affair...

I thank GOD that Mortarman, Pep, Mel and others set me straight...

As I used to say, I GOT RIGHT BACK UP ON THE HORSE...

I'm saying this for OTHERS who may be reading and thinking about PLAN B..

Get ready for the LONG HAUL...because I have NO DOUBT that it was PLAN B that led my H to make that call to me...

AND I couldn't be HAPPIER today...

Oh... and BR... if you are unlucky tomorrow and have your H send you packing... I for one will still think your opinion is just as valuable.. despite your "failure" to be in a recovered marriage.

I think Sis' conversation was just fine. I do not see anything wrong with questioning her husband, asking for his reasoning, or lack thereof.

Now, I do agree with BR that about the need to be right, as I have the same problem, and am STILL working this one out. I don't think this is something Sis will be able to change right away, but starting today is a good place.

I asked PWC very similar questions toward the end of his A, about whether he thought what he was doing was right, etc and so on, fully well knowing that he KNEW it wasn't. My need to be right. PWC was so lost, he seemed paralyzed. I was trying to get him to SEE something, but he was in control of his blinders, not me. It took these types of conversations to convince me to let go, to learn that control is an illusion.

I also think leaving MB right now would be a big mistake Sis. Remember, how Mimi repeatedly tells you that your situation is not special. I agree, it's not, because I have done and said many of the things that you have done and said. I think we BS's may have our own script, too. I didn't leave MB, because I needed the 2x4s to keep coming, to help me learn.

Sis, learn from this experience, and put it in your recovery aresenal, how to let go of the illusion of control.

Hi LS,
been catching up on this thread and
i just want to clarify what happened...... i pretty much took from it that YOU decided to break plan B becuse you had had enough and wanted to give H 1 last shot to at the possiblility of reconciliation before you gave it over and accepted that you will go ahead and divorce.....and get on w/ your life w/o any lingering hopes of reconcilliation.
is that correct?

i have a question for everybody....how LONG is plan B supposed to last?

what should happen when someone like LS gets to a point where plan B no longer offers her peace but just a feeling that it's dragging on TOO long and she really wants to get on w/ life?

it's been 4 months since she entred plan B and her WH has accepted it pretty well.........seems like he could go on like that forever...but, she realized she couldn't.


LS,
maybe i (or maybe you) didn't understand what your WH was saying when he said he'd go to see someone to HELP you get over this.

i am curious....WHY were you so quick to refuse that offer?

I think there is much confusion on this thread when it comes to who is encouraging what. The title itself reads "Stick a fork in me I'm done". Based on that statement by lil Sis, it seems that she is done with plan b. I respect her choice, if that is indeed what she has decided. If she has decided that the conversation she had with her WH gives her some closure (and I believe that is what she posted) then that is her choice. I support her choice and accept it has being her choice. I have never recovered a marriage, but I have recovered personally and am thankful for that. I hope the same is possible for Sis whether she recovers her marriage or not.

What is ironic about this statement, is that MANY people IMHO here who claimed to have experienced "successful marital recovery" are some of the most scarred, dysfunctional people I can imagine.

For the record I don't personally have an opinion on this latest saga with lilsis...more of the same just wrapped up differently...we've been here before.

But, I think it is interesting that the same people that are encouraging Lilsis to follow the "MB WAY"...like a cult almost...are the one's who spend 10 hours here a day all day every day making post after post (when could they possibly be spending time with their recovered spouse?), people who claim to have "successfuly recovered" yet still allow ramapant substance abuse to dominate their families life, people who have such low self esteem that they would shred any sense of self dignity to not let the OW "win".

I don't know, but I am one of the "Marriage Builder" failures here...and I am NOT at all ashamed to admit that. I did NOT save my marriage. I am divorced.......BIG WAVE BIG WAVE.... But let me tell ya, I don't think I would trade my life with a single person here. I don't give marriage building advice...(not my specialty), but I am a very successful person with a lot of healthy self esteem, healthy self respect for my body and mind, and I can help anyone also acheive those things through MY EXPERIENCES. The Harley's BUSINESS (for large large profit-nothing at all wrong with that) is to save marriages BY STAVING OFF DIVORCE....they will do that, and they do a good job of that...both good and bad...it is not their job to judge whether to save only good marriages.... SO, in a nut shell, plan B, PLan A.....Harley phone calls, traveling brochures on the front table, whatever.....in the end, Lilsis...you only have control over YOU.

I think the time tables of 2 years are just that...convenient time tables. They have NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS. I use figures like this ALL of the time when patients may ask how "much time" do they have left....and those numbers even have some scientific basis...but no one really knows. Don't die another death waiting out for a specific date because someone said so.

In your heart, you know what you have left. If you still love this man, and still dream for a recovered a marriage, then do what is possible to get that. Their is risk in that.....lessened self esteem, more pain, more damage...but you have to be the one to make that decision. If you want big rewards, you have to take big risks. I am not advising you to do one thing or the other here....What I think doesn't matter at all.

If you are truly "done"....you'll know it. There is a finality to it...that one knows. I happen to personally believe you still would reconcile and that you did what you did to get a reaction out of your Husband...more of the same under a veiled plan a or b or whatever. I am not criticizing you for this...but it is what it is.

I would offer one piece of advice to you.

DO NOT GET A DIVORCE OR SPEED UP DIVORCE IF THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT.

I have no other advice for you.

You know where I stand otherwise on your situation. I only hope the best for you and your 2 sons.

LEM, MD

Lem, very well said and I agree 100%.

One of my primary goals for coming here (other than my own continued Recovery) is to help you guys profit from MY MISTAKES and from what I see now out here on the other side.

Comparing the NORMAL HUSBAND that I have now and the WAYWARD SPOUSE that he was is NIGHT AND DAY.

I know full well that I could not have TALKED HIM into anything when he was WAYWARD and he tells me NOW about THAT PERSON who he WAS...

The WS will LIE STRAIGHT TO YOUR FACE and come up with anything...

SO DON'T BE SURPRISED IF HE WAS LYING LAST NIGHT about thinking that what he is doing is WRONG...he may have said that for the boys' benefit..I too am concerned about them having been there...

I still have flashbacks of my mother making me knowledgeable of my father's philandering 40 YEARS AGO...YUCK..bad memory...trying to hurt him by pointing it out to us..YUCK...

And don't be surprised that the idea of seeing a counselor was something that he just came up with...

THE BEST PLAN FOR YOU WOULD BE TO GO BACK INTO PLAN B, IMO...

Or else, you've probably prolonged the A at a point when he may have been breaking..or it's PLAN D...

LilSis,

I just returned from a 2 week vacation, and admit I have not read everything that has been posted.

I did, however, read this recent thread. I had the same reaction as Lexxy after reading your recounting of what happened in your conversation with WH. I can only speak from my experience, but I know it would have been highly uncharacteristic for my H to offer to go to counselling for ANY reason. Your WH admitted he thinks he is wrong - do you think he believes a counsellor would take his side or is he saying in a very veiled way that he is willing to have someone start calling him on his choices and helping find the way out that he has been too (insert your own word here - weak? addicted? passive?) to do on his own.

It is certainly food for thought.

(((LilSis))) - FWIW I don't think you did anything that terrible. You identified what you needed and did what you had to do. Peace of mind is a goal I spent lots of time looking for throughout recovery. Enjoy it while you have it!

SHOL

LExx:

You stated that LilSis should call SH and schedule something because of this line:

"An aside...he did offer to go see someone together to "help me get over this" and mediate a discussion about what happened. I told him that I wasn't interested"

This was just her WH telling her to "just get over it and someone else is helping me get off this hook I created."

If LilSis wants to call SH for her own purposes, she should. But to think that WH will participate?

NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.

The only way he will ever do it is when his sorry broken soul decides it's time to "Be a MAN"

An email from LS's intermediary, or LS herself stating that they have an appointment of such and such a day, to follow up on what he said would be met with scorn.

Remember, he said "help me (LILSIS) get over this" Not US, Not HIM, but LilSis!

I'm looking for the "for Sale" sign from Lilsis. That inconvertible truth to her WH that it is over.

Plan A laid the ground work, and Plan B has helped her detach.

WH likes his position.

Notice he "wanted to talk about the arrearages" Not what he could do to fix this.

Let him pay the arrearages.

Have him Pay your Attorney fees

Drag out the process.

Ask him for spousal support. (And it you can find out how much Mr. RT is paying, ask for that)

One day WH will see LilSis's "for Sale" sign and have his head pop out. It can pop out for ten minutes, or ten years.

It's still his choice.

BR/Mimi:

We hope we can guide folks here to avoid the same mistakes we made. Plan A too Long/Short, Plan B Too Dark/Not Dark enough. Whatever that the poster is doing.

Unfortunately, life doesn't always unfold the same way.

Is this Plan LilSis? Yes, and until we can transport ourselves down into LilSis's body, shoes and eyes, it will always be Plan LilSis.

Just like it was Plan Mimi and Plan Killer Bees, and soon Plan Bugs.

We are not infallible.

Did LS extend her WH A? No one here will ever know, unless Mr LilSis shows up at some later date and honestly answers that question.

Did LS hand WH over to RT on a silver platter? No. WH Climbed on that platter. LS has fought every step of the way since she got her to knonk him off of it. WH has to step off of it.

I am amazed at WH's passivity....

During my affair, it was easy in the status quo. LilSis has done everything to upset that Status Quo. But WH still sits quietly.

When WH makes the call to a MC, and does something to show the loss of this passivity that he has, then LS has a chance of regaining her M. But not until then.

So LilSis is in the right place. WH is still lost. And unwilling to ask for directions, or even to respect those that would offer directions.

LilSis's need to look WH in the face and ask him: "Are you doing the right thing?" will not doom her M. WH non-answers will.

LG

WSes are FOGGY..

Who knows what CONCEPTION he has of SIS that he is continuing to try and rationalize to himself...

She MAY have demonstrated to him that she has not changed and wants CONTROL...

Sadly, he MAY have said what HE THINKS she wanted to hear...

Agree with LG...

He has to reach his bottom before he benefits from any counseling...

LG:

I personally don't come here just to provide support although I do that at times.

I come here to encourage use of the MBer's Plans and I believe in adherence to the plans is the best chance for MARITAL RECOVERY. Of course no one will follow any program PERFECTLY but they devised these PLANS for a reason and the expectation is for the PLANS to be followed. Of course folks can choose to do so or not. Of course I know that.

Well said, Lousygolfer. Well said.

There is a pattern ~ and I am not rude for pointing it out.

There are no cults here - if I was to accept that concept, then it would be just as fair to say there is an anti-MB / anti marriage cult here also.

I don't believe either.

What I do believe is that everytime Sis does something harms her own personal growth, or lessens her chances at marital recovery, there are people who come out of the wood work to cheer her on - all in the name of taking back her personal power. Do I think that these people have bad intentions? No. Do I think that they are cheering on behavior that is ultimately harmful to her? YES. Are the majority of these individuals people with their own personal slant on MB - in addition to being those who have not experienced marital recovery? Yes.

When I want advice, I tend to ask for advice from people who have what I want. For example, I do not ask my secretary for advice on how to politically manuever in high level strategy meetings. I ask my boss - who is successful and has experience.

It's just a fact, if what Sis wants to achieve, it is more productive to seek guidance from those who have already gotten there, rather than those who have not.

There is no judgement there - its just a fact. You can't give what you don't have.

LilSis participated in driving her marriage off into a ditch because of her need for control, perfection - HER WAY, HER SELF WILL. Her problem is her mistaken belief in her own personal power.

What her husband is doing or thinking does NOT MATTER in this - in order for her to recover, to go on to live happy, joyous and free, she needs to learn to LET GO.

My Alanon sponser used to kick my rear for the same thing.

I'd surrender my own personal need to control, to manipulate, to impose my self will on the world around me - for just a little while.

I'd start to enjoy some peace in my life.

And then, I would be drawn back, over and over again, to fall back into my old habits.

I'd stir the pot.

I'd dress it up with all kinds of excuses.

It was all crap.

It was my need to dictate to my husband and to the world the-way-things-should-be.

You can dress up a pig, and its still just a pig.

In 12 Steps terms, it was called going back to Step Zero - where I believed that there was NO POWER greater than MYSELF.

In MB terms, LilSis has abandoned what has been proven to work for her own version of Step Zero. Its called Plan Sis.

And MEDC ~ I am 6 years into recovery, achieved witht help of Steve Harley. I'd call that successful. My husband is an active alcholic and there is always a possibility he will leave. That doesn't make the recovery and peace we have had for the last 6 years any less real.

And one more thing - I am a firm believer that children have the right to know what is going on in their lives.

I do NOT believe that they should be present during adult discussions - especially when their presences is meant to force the outcome of the conversation.

Her children were forced to watch their father choose RT over them, AGAIN. There was no need for that.

He has to reach his bottom before he benefits from any counseling...

____________________________

a question for all you MB experts......what happens if LS hits her bottom before he does?

isn't that what happened? She hit bottom w/plan B?
just couldn't take it anymore?

Perhaps a new thread title is in order. But let me clarify.

What I am done with is blaming myself. I am done with questioning what I have done that caused this. I am done being a victim. Instead, I am choosing to reclaim myself. Yep, I needed validation from WH to make that final leap. I admit that. I am just letting it go. I am turning it over to God; I was saying my peace. I do still love him, and I still have those hopes and wishes that we could have a chance to try recovery. But these hopes and wishes are painful, very painful, and we seem to be on the non-stop flight to D.

Maybe I needed to shake things up a bit, rattle the cage, find out if he’s even still alive in there. Maybe I did go to Plan B prematurely. Maybe I needed convincing, like SL says. Maybe I needed that validation. I’m not sure why I did what I did. Probably multiple reasons. I just had this one question that I felt compelled to ask him. I wanted him to articulate in so many words if he believed that this was the right thing or not. He has never said that to me before. He has never before stated that it was anything less than the proper course of action. I wanted to know if he really believed that.

I also wanted to stand before him, not in a puddle, but as the strong, capable woman that I have become. Still heartbroken, still yearning for H, but able to stand before him humbly and honestly.

I have been with this man for 13 years. I could not bear staying in Plan B and just falling into Plan D without saying a word…poof…marriage over…WH never knowing that I was still willing to fight for it. And that is the path that we were on, quietly marching toward our end.

I can feel peaceful with that now…I’m relating to what SL is saying.

I am not signing off of MB, unless it becomes too hot in the kitchen. I called myself an MB dropout because I broke the plans.

WH would never do a phone call. He would be so skeptical and would never agree to it…his dad is a psychologist; remember (for all the good that did). I wish that there was someone locally that I could set up an appointment with who would ask the same types of questions that SH would ask.

I don’t know why I was so quick to decline his offer of getting help to get past this. Perhaps because of the way he framed it (as if we could talk to someone who could set me straight, as if I have this intractable problem). If I knew of a therapist that would approach it in the right way, I would make an appointment and I’m sure he would still agree to go. But I don’t know where to begin…

When I tried to follow PLAN MIMI, I goofed BIG TIME and if I had continued that route I would have been divorced today or still in limbo....